Kamen Rider Zero-One Clean-Up and Revision

[Sir_Ovens]

Alright so I watched Zero-One and decided to fix the pages, which was a herculean task. Anyway, changes are here and here.

Feel free to look through them as I will only be covering important changes here.

First off, Horobi should just be straight up 7-A from the get go since Breaking Mammoth did nothing to him with its finisher. Breaking Mammoth is stronger than its inferior counterpart, the Giger, which was stated by Thouser to have a max output of 5x its base. Considering a Giger casually backhanded Raising Hopper, it's safe to say its 5x stronger than Raising Hopper at peak, which is what a finisher would be. Explanation is on Horobi's page, feel free to check it out

Second of all, Aruto in his Post-Series key, which is RealxTime, will scale to Metal Cluster Hopper tanking a laser that would have destroyed the planet. It is made clear in the movie that Eden was going to wipe out all life on the surface of the planet in order to preserve all of the good people in his Metaverse (Yes this movie was ahead of its time). From the clip you can see that Aruto tanked most of the blast and prevented the apocalypse. This should scale to him, Zero-Two - which is a stronger form, Eden - who he fought evenly against, and Lucifer - who would later fight Zero-Two and him.

Other than that, I have also revised the multipliers, since only 2 really matter. Shining Hopper's 5x multiplier, and Thouser's 10x multiplier. To save everyone time and trouble, Raising Hopper <5x Shining Hopper < Shining Assault Hopper = Assault Vulcan <10x Thouser < Metal Cluster Hopper.

It is through this stupidly long scaling chain, that we can come to the conclusion that Metal Cluster Hopper is always 50x Raising Hopper. I have reflected this in the revised profiles so no one needs to ask me how the **** 7-B turns into Low 6-B.

It is now late, I am going to sleep.

Edit: Oh yeah, High 6-B will be removed as it's not really necessary. The multiplier from finishers is still there, but in the grand scheme of things, it changes nothing because it is still a one shot no matter how you phrase it. So I have opted to leave it as higher instead to save space. It also makes more logical sense as the multiplier scales to whatever form the user is currently in, so it doesn't make sense to have one singular tier for finishers.

 

[Nicetoderp]

As much as I like the High 6-A Z1, the problem is that the beam wasn't actually fully charged at that point if I remembered the movie correctly.

And I assumed that the whole Learning 50x stronger would no longer be on the profile?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'll have to check the movie again but I don't think it was not charged. Eden just wanted to engage it earlier.

The scaling exists. Thouser's statements still hold true, what doesn't exist is the characters jumping tiers exponentially out of nowhere. Aruto clearly gets stronger as the series progresses as we see his base form tank attacks he could only take as Metal Cluster Hopper before. The tier jumps for characters only happen in new arcs, not magically during fights.

The only character that would have any sort of instantaneous power increase would be Ark-Zero, who has that adaptation ability that allows it to grow stronger during a fight.

 

[BERRIES555]

Well, the Dodo Magia easily defeated Shining Hopper who was 2x stronger than itself within a minute of their first encounter. Horobi also stomped Thouser the minute he was stomped by him. So RPL midfight isn't new to the seires

 

[MagiSinbad]

The dodo magia was able to x2 AP jump from just a few seconds fighting SH. So I would say the humagears that scail above him like Jin and Horobi should have instaneous RPL like Ark-Zero as well.

Edit: damn, got Ninja'ed by BERRIES

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yes but what I mean is that that doesn't cause tier jumps. The characters are very clearly defined by a certain power level that they maintain throughout each arc. Nobody is exponentially stronger than someone else without a new form or clear power increases.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Not magically during the fight maybe, but base Zero-One tanking Ark's attack in the same day that it beat the living hell out of MCH is very clear.

Yua Yaiba, who isn't even irrelevant to the scaling chain damage Thouser in her base form is also a thing.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Nobody is exponentially stronger than someone else without a new form or clear power increases.

Horobi is the direct counter proof for this. He got RPL jump from just few seconds fighting Thouser at their first fight (when Thouser is still x10 him) . Then later in their rematch, Horobi was able to counter RPL against Thouser and then defeated him. Not to mention his AP constantly rising to a ridiculous point that he can fight Ark-Zero in the later arc.

 

[Lonkitt]

I agree with Ovens' proposals

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Horobi is the direct counter proof for this. He got RPL jump from just few seconds fighting Thouser at their first fight (when Thouser is still x10 him) . Then later in their rematch, Horobi was able to counter RPL against Thouser and then defeated him. Not to mention his AP constantly rising to a ridiculous point that he can fight Ark-Zero in the later arc.

If you look at the profiles, you can see that I've already accommodated for that. Previously, there was only one key for the arcs Hiden Manufacture and Ark Raising. I've properly split the two arcs so the tier jump makes sense.

Again, I'm not saying that RPL doesn't exist entirely, I mean that it does not exist outside of maybe turning a stomp around within a tier. There's no outright High 7-A to High 6-C jump that can't be explained by a simple arc change other than Ark-Zero. Aruto becoming resistant to Ark-Zero in base form only happens in the Ark Raising Arc. He has shown no feat of being able to tank Ark's attacks prior outside of Metal Cluster Hopper.

You can say he got stronger, sure. But that's not RPL because he got stronger over time and didn't just jump tiers during a fight.

 

[BERRIES555]

Even if you don’t say that Aruto’s 50x boost was not an instantaneous thing, Dodo and Horobi being able to reach the level of Shining Hopper and Thouser respectively still do point to RPL being able to activate mid fight. It maybe not as high as 50x like we first thought, but a 10x as Horobi showed. Or at the absolute least 2x as shown with the Dodo. But going off the Dodo’s RPL leap is beyond a lowball as the entire cast by the end of the series out match him by several millions to even trillions

 

[Nicetoderp]

If you look at the profiles, you can see that I've already accommodated for that. Previously, there was only one key for the arcs Hiden Manufacture and Ark Raising. I've properly split the two arcs so the tier jump makes sense.

Again, I'm not saying that RPL doesn't exist entirely, I mean that it does not exist outside of maybe turning a stomp around within a tier. There's no outright High 7-A to High 6-C jump that can't be explained by a simple arc change other than Ark-Zero. Aruto becoming resistant to Ark-Zero in base form only happens in the Ark Raising Arc. He has shown no feat of being able to tank Ark's attacks prior outside of Metal Cluster Hopper.

You can say he got stronger, sure. But that's not RPL because he got stronger over time and didn't just jump tiers during a fight.

Then what about Horobi? What about Shining Hopper? The absolute bottom barrel RPL that is DoDo Magia nigh instantaneous adaptation to stats difference is also there.

And the fact that Aruto is the only one who did this as well having MCH being able to goes from getting two-shot into clashing his Finisher against Ark.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I'm in agreement with Ovens here.

While RPL and multipliers did indeed exist within the series, i believe we are overusing it in determining character power levels and it's causing alot of misunderstands. Likewise, we're using a small-scales fight to decide the overall power of that character without taking the entire growth they needed to reach it.

Let take this for example, during Ark Raising arc Horobi contend with Thouser in a brief fight and he did not grow beyond his tier, only gaining upper hand against those whose he once struggled against. RPL still exist but a numerous of small fights did not make Horobi Low 6-B until later arcs when he actually fought Ark-Zero.

 

[BERRIES555]

I mean I can agree with Aruto not having the 50x RPL anymore, that I could get behind. But then there are blatant examples of mid fight RPL from vastly weaker characters. While these multipliers may not effect the actual ratings, I still think we should point them out. Give a “higher” via RPL (The weakest AI was capable of easily defeating someone 1.8x stronger than itself within half a minute of exposure), “much higher” over time (Could become 50x stronger than he was before)

Or something like that. Cause like I said, Aruto’s 50x boost could very well be him getting stronger over time, but things like Dodo’s 1.8x boost or Horobi’s 10x boost is very clearly shown to be capable of being done mid combat

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Nobody said multipliers and RPL don't exist or anything, the proposal is that we stop treating everyone would get 10x boost in every fights because that is circular scaling.

Horobi did get 10x boost to fight against Thouser but that is his cap limit in that key, RPL wouldn't get him higher. In a versus matches, Horobi start at his strongest (aka after getting RPL'ed) so 10x boost wouldn't exist.

 

[BERRIES555]

Oh, shit, if that was the case then I caused trouble for no reason. I’m sorry everyone

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So now we just need to discuss if Eden's laser is actually High 6-A or not.

 

[Lonkitt]

Nothing really indicates that the laser was nerfed

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I have promote this in CRTs promotion thread.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Well then, I agreed with the revision.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Bump.

 

[BERRIES555]

Alright so, it’s pretty up in the air whether or not the feat should be 6-A. Eden stated the laser could destroy the earth, but I don’t know if Aruto and izu would scale. Since when they both were in a power struggle against Eden, the timer of the laser didn’t go off, so I don’t know if we should count this as a feat since they didn’t actually overpower the full laser.

 

[Lonkitt]

Didn't the laser fire at that last second though? If we're basing the power of the laser off the timer, then Aruto certainly scales to High 6-A

 

[BERRIES555]

Well no, it was one second away from blasting

 

[Lonkitt]

That's what I mean though, there's nothing really telling us its weaker than it was stated to be

 

[BERRIES555]

Eh, I see where you going with. It’s also shown that Eden could fire the laser even when it’s not at full charge. So maybe it could apply here too. The attack was very much going to go off, just that it wasn’t at full power, but very nearly about to.

So sure, I’ll agree with the revisions

 

[IxaSaga2]

Yea, I agree with the revisions.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Who are the usual mods you ping for a Kamen Rider revision?

 

[BERRIES555]

Griffon is like, our main mod to ask other than you, sometimes we’ll ask Conflucter and Medus if we need another set of eyes for their views

 

[Confluctor]

Hmm, some questions;

Hiden's acausality type 2, can someone explain that a bit more? I am a bit confused about it.

Again about Hiden, in his Zero Two key, precognition is listed twice.

Onto Ark, why does it have AE type 1?

Onto Fuwa, his vibration and adhesive needs a little more elevation

Onto Izu, I assume the physiology will be added later? Her powernull has a bit of a formatting issue. Link can be seen and isn't embedded fully. Also you referred to her as he/him multiple times I think. Might wanna change it to she/her for consistency sake?

Regarding horobi; that will be radio wave negation rather than resistance. Also I don't think his deconstruction was explained anywhere? Also his intelligence needs redoing. I don't think any of them fit intelligence.



Rest seems alright to me. Unless there are somes scaling issues, then can't help with that

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Izu isn't complete or part of the revision. She doesn't have a profile yet I'm just making one in the sandbox.

 

[Confluctor]

Ah okay

 

[Nicetoderp]

Hmm yeah I agree with this then

 

[BERRIES555]

I'll try to answer some of your questions.

Hmm, some questions;

Hiden's acausality type 2, can someone explain that a bit more? I am a bit confused about it.

Again about Hiden, in his Zero Two key, precognition is listed twice.

Onto Ark, why does it have AE type 1?

Onto Fuwa, his vibration and adhesive needs a little more elevation

Onto Izu, I assume the physiology will be added later? Her powernull has a bit of a formatting issue. Link can be seen and isn't embedded fully. Also you referred to her as he/him multiple times I think. Might wanna change it to she/her for consistency sake?

Regarding horobi; that will be radio wave negation rather than resistance. Also I don't think his deconstruction was explained anywhere? Also his intelligence needs redoing. I don't think any of them fit intelligence.

Aruto's acausality comes from his resistance from the time altercations of the Another Riders. When an Another Rider is born, history is altered to the point where the original Rider never existed. For example, during the creation of Another Fourze, the original Kamen Rider Fourze was retconned out of existence. Despite this, during the creation of Another Zero One, Aruto was not erased from history nor was memories altered. Furthermore, when the timeline was rewritten, Aruto was capable of retaining his memories from the previous timeline, which no longer existed.

Ark's AE type 1 came from his true form of literal malice.

Fuwa's adhesives comes from his ability to shoot out a spider web to trap his enemies. As for his vibration manip, that I do not know

Huh, I just realized that, and horobi's deconstruction is one of his unique abilities too. Well, here's the clip, around one minute is where horobi uses his deconstruction.

 

[Confluctor]

Unless I am missing even greater context, that seems like acausality type 1 then.

I read the description, but I wanna know more. Is it completely Incorporeal? Or made of concept or somesuch? Cause it could just be type 2 or maybe just incorporeal

I think adding those descriptions to adhesive or some links would be nice.

Deconstruction looks fine too now. Maybe adding this video would help.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Unless I am missing even greater context, that seems like acausality type 1 then.

I dont know if this help, but Anotherwatch has shown feats to absorb the history of characters who have acausal type 4 (Kamen Rider Decade).

I read the description, but I wanna know more. Is it completely Incorporeal? Or made of concept or somesuch? Cause it could just be type 2 or maybe just incorporeal

Yes, Ark by the end of the series exist as the pure omnipresent concept of malice that exist within all living beings and inorganic beings like AI and robots.
He has no physical form and anyone who succumbed to their malice (either living creatures or inorganic beings like robots) will be chosen to become a vessel for Ark to acts in the physical world.

 

[Confluctor]

Still seems like acausality type 1 to me.

Ah, now that makes more sense. Thanks. AE seems fine then.

 

[BERRIES555]

Should we just replace Acasual 2 with just 1 then?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Still seems like acausality type 1 to me.

Ah, now that makes more sense. Thanks. AE seems fine then.

To provide more in-dept explanation: Anotherwatch function isn't just as simple as causing temporal paradoxes. A person history comprises of their past and future, memories and power, including those who are involved with them in the process. In this example, not just the heroes are erased but the villain fighting him were also removed from history.

To sum it up, a history hold every fundamental aspects of a person and Anotherwatch can remove them entirely. Aruto was able to resist the effect without issues.

 

[Confluctor]

Okay that's better then. Acausality type 2 seems fine too then