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Kamen Rider Revision: Desire, Medals, and Battle Royale

Jamesthetaker

He/Him
6,659
1,791
So, remember that I said Ex-Aid would be revised next? I lied. Sorry not.

The following profiles will be affected:

Additional Abilities for Greeeds​

Let's start with the simple things first.

Desire and Medals​

Kamen Rider OOO's main theme is about desire and medals, and the series exploits these concepts in a more literal way. Thanks to the Kamen Rider Zukan website and Kousei Kougami's info dump, we were able to get the definition of desire for OOO.
Desire.
The desire for something, the desire to fulfill something, is something that every human being has.

The O-Medal is created from this desire, and Greed, a greedy being, feeds on human desire to raise Yammies.

Kosei Konoe considered desire to be "pure and wonderful energy" and also said that "to live is to desire, and desire is also its driving force.
Source






As the scans show, we can interpret how desires work in OOO. Desire is the energy of life, which runs its course through all life-forms. To live is to want, so every living being has a desire for something. Desire drives us to evolve and want more, thus creating buildings, cities, and countries to satisfy our needs.

Now let us see some tangible evidence for this claim.

The monster of the week on the show is the Yummy, who are being created from human desire. They "feed" on their human host's desire and grow stronger by it. As seen in this clip where the Yummy are generating Medals by "eating" desire. They can sate the host's desires, whether it's something as simple as food or money, or even more abstract desires like wanting to destroy or getting popular.
Yummy
A being created mainly from human desires.

They are created from the parents of beings that have been fed cell medals by their creator, Greeed, and they multiply the cell medals they contain by satisfying their parents' desires.

They are roughly classified into six types: avian, insect, cat, aquatic, heavy, extinct, and imaginary creature.

Ultimately, they were destined to be converted into cell medals and taken up by Greeed.
Source
Moreover, the host's desire can directly shape the Yummy existence. When a Yummy feeds on desires, they will "mature" and become much stronger. If the host has a change in their desire, the Yummy will shape itself and gain ability in accordance with that desire. As in these examples, the kendo girl's having a double desire leads to the Yummy splitting itself to sate both of the desires. A traveler wants to be popular, so the Yummy gives itself the ability to absorb "talent" from others and add it to himself.

In the movie OOO X Den-O Let's Go All Riders, we have this scene where Ankh pulls a Medal out of Momotaros, even though he isn't human. This is another piece of evidence that not just humans but every living being has a desire, and from that desire came the creation of Medals.

In the Movie War Mega Max, there are the Medals of Kamen Rider Stronger, Amazon, and X. These Medals contain the existence of those Riders, and through them, OOO can use their power or summon them.

Remember the statement above where Kougami says desire is the energy of life? Here is some tangible evidence supporting it.
[Greed].
A lump of desire born from a core medal.

It was named "Greed," meaning "greed," because it is an existence that harbors desires but is unable to satisfy them.

Eight hundred years ago, alchemists in a certain country condensed the power of various creatures into medals for the purpose of creating artificial life.

Then, when one medal from each of the 10 medals of each lineage was extracted and made into the missing number 9, the desire to satisfy this desire was born.

This desire led to tremendous evolution and will, resulting in the birth of Greed.
Source


The context of this scan is that the Greeeds were originally mindless beings made up of ten Medals. The creator decides to remove one Medal, leaving an incomplete tally of nine of them. Thus, to fill out that spot, their desire to be complete was born, and the Greeeds gained consciousness.

We also have this statement from Kougami where he says that in order to create Medals, they would need a massive desire to manufacture them. From those desires, they were able to create a Greeed.

In 40 years in the future, Kougami successfully creates the Medals with pure desire, so it won't become a sentient monster. However, those future Medals eventually gained consciousness of their own from the desire to fight. This means that desire is able to create life and give consciousness to beings.

Given the presented evidence, desire would most likely fit with the Type 3 concept. However, as now, we'll move on to something similar but also distinct.

Purple Medals and Void Desire​

After the series comes to a half-way point, we're introduced to an entirely new set of Medals called the Purple Medals. They are Medals created using the power of extinct animals, in other words, creatures that no longer exist.

The Pteranodon Yummies, who have the power to reduce desire into nothingness, claim that the Purple Medals are similar to them.

We were able to see Maki, a Greeed of the same type, creating Yummies from inanimate objects. This means that desire exists not only in living beings but also in objects that don't have consciousness. To put it simply, their desires are nonexistent, a void of nothing, as Kougami explained above.

Remember the part where Kougami claims that the table, buildings, city, and country are all a mass of desire? While it may appear to be flowey language, Some instances showcase the "mass of desire" statement more literally, such as Medal Vessal converting everything into Medals and Gamel turning people into Medals. The evidence of Purple Medals backs it up more, so it's no stretch to say that the things mentioned contained desires as well.

In the following section, we'll look at how desire extends and influences reality.

Extensive of Desire​

The following section is a little different. We're looking at another series that has a subtle theme of desire but still follows a similar idea, and that is Kamen Rider Ryuki.

The series introduces a place called Mirror World, which, as you can guess, is a mirrored version of the real world. However, the extent of Mirror World goes beyond just that. There was a thread made to upgrade the Mirror World to a 2-A structure, which has been accepted. All the details can be found on this blog.

There have been numerous times when Mirror World has perished, but then it has been brought back by human desire. We'll examine each of them in order.

In the 13 Riders special, Shiro Kanzaki claims that human desires thrive on conflict, resulting in the creation of the Mirror World. Inside that world, there is a core to create monsters. If the core was destroyed, then the Mirror World would be gone. One of the endings shows us what exactly happened when it got destroyed. The Mirror Worlds and Riders briefly disappeared, but they came back. It was said that deep down, everyone has the desire to fight, and they eventually become riders, so the battle will continue as long as people desire something.

Many years after Ryuki ended, we got an anniversary special which is connected to the past series. The introduction of Ryuga, a mirror being halted from an erased world, Not just Ryuga, but the entire Mirror World is brought back, and it's called the "lost Mirror World," confirming that it had been erased before.

In the final episode of the original series, Odin uses Time Vent to reset the timeline and make the Riders and battle royale no longer exist. However, the Mirror World and the Riders return to fight again. We know this because the characters' memories in the original series were shown, thus proving that everything happened in the same timeline. The reason they were brought back, despite being gone from the timeline, was almost the same as in 13 Riders, though slightly different, because of the desire to stop another killing game in the real world being above all.

All of this evidence alone wouldn't be sufficient enough because the definition of "desire" is vague in and of itself. But it has been contextualized in Kamen Rider OOO that desire exists in a more literal way from the existence of Medals and Greeeds. Thus, we have enough evidence to connect the desire in OOO and Ryuki as one and the same.

TL;DR​

All the additional abilities for Greeeds (Kyoryu Greeed, Gamel, and Uva):
As for the desire thingy, here is the summary for everything in the OP:

Desire is an abstract energy present in all living and non-living things. It is the driving force behind life and the thriving evolution of living things. Medals are derived from desires ranging from wanting objects or food to more abstract desires. As seen in the case of Yummy, desire has the ability to directly shape an individual's existence. As long as they are willing to fight for it, the desire that exists within human hearts has the ability to create the Mirror World, a world that contains infinite realities. The desire to fight will always bring the Mirror World back, no matter how many times it is destroyed.

There is an opposing aspect known as nonexistent desire, which is void of nothing and capable of erasing desire. Since the Purple Medals have the same power as the Pteranodon Yummies, they enable OOO to interact with those who lack desire.

From this, Kamen Rider OOO would have Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3, likely 2), as desire is an abstract energy that can govern an individual's existence and can warp the entire reality of Mirror World. As the Purple Medals have the same power as the Pteranodon Yummies, he would also get Non-Physical Interaction from being able to interact with the nonexistent desire. Kyoryu Greeed would get the same abilities as they all draw power from the Purple Medals.
 
I don't think OOO should get concept manip. Desire itself is abstract, yes. But nobody in OOO has touched it in its abstract form before. Medals are physical, even if they contain the desires of people. I think medals should just get type 2 abstract existence, but interacting with them would be wholly physical.
 
In the Movie War Mega Max, there are the Medals of Kamen Rider Stronger, Amazon, and X. These Medals contain the existence of those Riders, and through them, OOO can use their power or summon them.
Those were the Riders turned into Medals by Foundation X, and Eiji was just freeing them
 
I don't think OOO should get concept manip. Desire itself is abstract, yes. But nobody in OOO has touched it in its abstract form before. Medals are physical, even if they contain the desires of people. I think medals should just get type 2 abstract existence, but interacting with them would be wholly physical.
The Pteranodon Yummies stated that their power could bring everything to nothingness. We saw them erasing humans from existence and, by their own word, desire is invalidated by them, so it's not just the physical medals that are gone.

Also, do you agree that desire itself is fit to be type 3, or even type 2?
 
Those were the Riders turned into Medals by Foundation X, and Eiji was just freeing them
Given that the Foundation X's purpose in the movie was to try to harness the power of Medals and Astroswitches, they would likely do the same to the Showa Riders. It's possible for OOO and Fourze to use the power of Showa Riders if they like, as the entire purpose of the devices is to allow them to materialize their respective armaments.

It's not really out of question for them to "summon" the Showa Riders from the Medals/Astroswitches. The same thing happened with Wizard's Rider Rings in the final episode.
 
I don't think OOO should get concept manip. Desire itself is abstract, yes. But nobody in OOO has touched it in its abstract form before. Medals are physical, even if they contain the desires of people. I think medals should just get type 2 abstract existence, but interacting with them would be wholly physical.
Except that we saw what people that get desire erased happened, they get their existence erased as we see the Dino Yummies did to everyone that they have erased their "desire" from.
 
So Yummy and Greed would get AE 2?
Embodying a concept is AE type 2 after all.

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.
I agree with everything.
As for the concept type, I agree with type 2 because of the mirror world resurrection which would include the world itself and a rider's existence, and type 3 is rare and quite personal which I don't see how resurrecting and affecting an entire dimension which based on humanity desire (As said by Shiro Kanzaki) as type 3.

Although, I share the same sentiment as Ovens, giving OOO's cm is a bit iffy to me.

What would OOO's CM justification be? He didn't really create something or manipulate something, maybe the destruction of desire?
 
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Although, I share the same sentiment as Ovens, giving OOO's cm is a bit iffy to me.

What would OOO's CM justification be? He didn't really create something or manipulate something, maybe the destruction of desire?
OOO's void hax scales to the Pteranodon Yummies, who can erase humans and their desires, so I'm proposing conceptual destruction.
 
I think Desire is less of a concept and more of an abstract energy. The problem with Desire being a concept is that each individual person and thing has it. If it was a concept, that means erasing the desire to eat chicken would make everyone who wants to eat chicken stop wanting to do that.

I would be open to type 8 immortality reliant on desire, which itself would be abstract.
 
I think Desire is less of a concept and more of an abstract energy. The problem with Desire being a concept is that each individual person and thing has it. If it was a concept, that means erasing the desire to eat chicken would make everyone who wants to eat chicken stop wanting to do that.

I would be open to type 8 immortality reliant on desire, which itself would be abstract.
Well, my post explains how desire functions in general, in that the very idea of desire itself is omnipresent across reality, whether it's living or non-living things.

The OOO series refers to it as "a whirlpool/mass of desire" on several occasions, which typically refers to the collective desire as a whole, that has a greater impact on the world. It lines up with the Ryuki series, where the Mirror World was a result of people's desire to fight for their needs.

Therefore, eliminating a person's desire has little consequence because it is merely a smaller part of the idea of desire.

Now, the reason OOO should have conceptual manipulation is because the Purple Medals are described as being the antithesis of desire, and no matter which form desire takes, they will become nothing to it. If OOO hadn't intervened, Dinosaur Yummies would have eliminated everything, including desire.
 
To clarify, Purple Medals destroy the concept of desire on a varied scale?

Is there an on-screen example we can link?
 
The thing is I don't think desire is necessarily a concept, rather an abstract form of energy. Like for the talent example, absorbing talent and giving it to others doesn't have to be conceptual.

Like it's stated repeatedly that desire is energy, and I think that is literal. It's a form of energy that powers certain things and people like the Greeeds. The dinosaur Yummies having nonexistent desire just means they work as a sort of heat sink for desire and absorb it like a black hole, which would just be non-physical interaction.

Think of the Undead curse from Dark Souls. It's not a concept, but it is abstract. Affecting it doesn't require conceptual manipulation, it requires non-physical interaction on an abstract level.
 
Would it be similar to that to DC's Orange Lantern?

Avarice is just a form of cosmic energy?

 
I would think so judging from the description in the OP.
 
The thing is I don't think desire is necessarily a concept, rather an abstract form of energy. Like for the talent example, absorbing talent and giving it to others doesn't have to be conceptual.

Like it's stated repeatedly that desire is energy, and I think that is literal. It's a form of energy that powers certain things and people like the Greeeds. The dinosaur Yummies having nonexistent desire just means they work as a sort of heat sink for desire and absorb it like a black hole, which would just be non-physical interaction.

Think of the Undead curse from Dark Souls. It's not a concept, but it is abstract. Affecting it doesn't require conceptual manipulation, it requires non-physical interaction on an abstract level.
It seems like we all agree that desire is an abstract energy here, but I will make more arguments for desire's being a concept. Most notably, how desire governs other things and influences reality.

We are aware that desire has existed since the beginning of life, as per Kougami's claim. Perhaps even before it, as the Greeeds were just mindless artificial life until they gained desire. When people lose their desire, they fall into comas and eventually die, and this is consistent with the statement of desire being the source of human life.

To further concrete my interpretation, we see examples when the Yummies change their form and gain power in accordance with their host's desire. Another example of this is the Shocker Greed, which lives on the collective desire of the Shocker organization. The Legend Rider Medals are probably the most straightforward ones, as they literally contain the riders' existence inside them. So, we have enough evidence to believe that life itself is dependent on desire. It gives form and power to beings and enables them to live. Without desire, they would cease to exist.

This takes us to another point: life is not the only thing that desire can give.

Here are a few instances where the Yummies have used their power to destroy dreams, erase people, erase talent, and make people fall in love. They all originate from desire because that is what gives the Yummies their life. Once again, this is in line with Kougami's assertion that power comes from desire. All of the previously mentioned things—supernatural ability, talent, dreams, etc.—are reliant on desire and are only possible because of it.

Mirror World's evidence is by far the most significant one here. The only constant in infinite realities is desire, which implies that desire exists in all realities. When people's wants become so great, they become riders and trigger the Rider Battle, creating Mirror World simutanously. The whole of Kanzaki Shiro's talk may sound like flowery words, but if we equalize it with the context of OOO, it will clear up the ambiguity.

As in the accepted blog, the Mirror World is a near-perfect replica of the real world, with its own starry sky, constellations, and sea. Other realities inside the dimension infinitely reflect each other. We will combine this assertion with the Mirror World because there is no longer any room for skepticism regarding Kougami's word at this point given all the evidence above. Therefore, we can draw the idea that the Mirror World is also a mass of greed that was born out of desire. It's not without back-up evidence either, though. Several times where the Mirror World is destroyed, they are brought back because people will always fight for what they want. The Rider Battle will not end because, deep down, everyone is a Rider. The substitute context implies that the Rider Battle and Mirror World are initiated by desires.

All and all, abstract things (life, dreams, talent, superpowers, etc.) and even the Mirror World (2-A structure) are dependent on the very idea of desire. Desire brought them into existence, and should it go, they would cease to be as well.

@Sir_Ovens

Do you think that desire is a concept because the entire Mirror World depends on it and many other things derive from it?
 
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To clarify, Purple Medals destroy the concept of desire on a varied scale?

Is there an on-screen example we can link?
There is Putotyra Combo destroying the medals, which contained desire itself. Although it doesn't have an effect on reality for most of the time, this could probably be because Eiji doesn't want to cause chaos on the global scale because of his heroic nature.

However, there is Maki, another user of Purple Medals, who wants to use it to bring the ultimate nothingness where nothing exists if not for OOO and Ankn there to stop him.
鴻上生体研究所の所長であり、メダルシステムや仮面ライダーバースの開発者。

他人と会話する際は、亡き姉からもらった人形「キヨちゃん」に語り掛けるように発言。

姉に似た白石知世子や、ぐいぐい距離を詰めてくる伊達明に対しては心の一部を明かすこともあった。

その目的は「良き終末」をもたらし、世界を美しいままに完成させること。

メダルの器として暴走させたグリードが世界を喰らい尽くした後、そのグリードを排除することで「何も存在しない究極の無」に到達しようと目論む。

そして鴻上光生の下から離反した後、紫のメダルを取り込んで恐竜グリードへと変貌。

最終決戦では仮面ライダーオーズとアンクの前に敗北を喫し、自身にもたらされた終末を受け入れて消滅してしまった。
Director of the Kougami Biological Research Institute and developer of the Medal System and Kamen Rider Bath.

When conversing with others, he speaks as if talking to the doll "Kiyo-chan" given by his late sister.

He sometimes reveals part of his heart to Chiyoko Shiraishi, who resembles his older sister, and Akira Date, who keeps a close distance.

Its purpose is to bring about a "good ending" and complete the world in its beautiful state.

After the greed that was run amok as a container for medals devoured the world, he plans to reach "the ultimate nothingness where nothing exists" by eliminating the greed.

And after leaving Kousei Kougami, he took in the purple medal and transformed into the dinosaur Greed.

In the final battle, he was defeated by Kamen Rider OOO and Ankh, and he accepted the end that was brought to him and disappeared.
 
The thing is I don't think desire is necessarily a concept, rather an abstract form of energy. Like for the talent example, absorbing talent and giving it to others doesn't have to be conceptual.

Like it's stated repeatedly that desire is energy, and I think that is literal. It's a form of energy that powers certain things and people like the Greeeds. The dinosaur Yummies having nonexistent desire just means they work as a sort of heat sink for desire and absorb it like a black hole, which would just be non-physical interaction.

Think of the Undead curse from Dark Souls. It's not a concept, but it is abstract. Affecting it doesn't require conceptual manipulation, it requires non-physical interaction on an abstract level.
Manipulating abstraction is, in a sense, Conceptual Manipulation, as the power as a whole boil down to manipulating some abstract essence that shape something in reality. And from what OP shown, these abstract can shape some existence, so it can qualify for Conceptual Manipulation, about type idk, since it is depend on verse so well leave that thing for verse experts (i only watch KR Ryuki)
 
Manipulating abstraction is, in a sense, Conceptual Manipulation, as the power as a whole boil down to manipulating some abstract essence that shape something in reality. And from what OP shown, these abstract can shape some existence, so it can qualify for Conceptual Manipulation, about type idk, since it is depend on verse so well leave that thing for verse experts (i only watch KR Ryuki)
Yeah that's not how we do things.

A concept has to encompass the thing it represents. Desire in general, is a wholly individualistic thing that changes from person to person. Now the problem here is that you're trying to present Desire as individualistic but also all encompassing.

Like with the mirror world, you could argue it is powered by the general concept of desire, but you can't say that and also say that Yummies can erase desire and have absolutely no consequences for the universe as a whole. You can't erase "part" of a concept. When you erase it, everything it encompasses goes with it. So when the dinosaur Yummies eat desire, the corresponding concept needs to be erased throughout the universe for it to be considered a real concept.
 
Hmm, well you do have a point, i just reply generally, but since i do not know the verse enough so well.......

But again i do think it still it fit Conceptual Manipulation type 3
 
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Manipulating abstraction is, in a sense, Conceptual Manipulation, as the power as a whole boil down to manipulating some abstract essence that shape something in reality.
Not really, concepts are abstract yes, however being abstract doesn't mean something is innately a concept, however, as things such as thoughts and laws are innately abstract, however that does not make them a concept.
To my understanding concepts are currently defined on-site as "The abstract "thing" which defines and governs a body", something which Desire currently does not seem to qualify for, instead being an abstract energy which suffuses, empowers, and drives forward existence to my knowledge.
The evidence regarding the yummies however seems like it could be used to grant them abstract existence type 2 if there is stuff showing that they are immortal due to stemming from desire.
 
Yeah that's not how we do things.

A concept has to encompass the thing it represents. Desire in general, is a wholly individualistic thing that changes from person to person. Now the problem here is that you're trying to present Desire as individualistic but also all encompassing.

Like with the mirror world, you could argue it is powered by the general concept of desire, but you can't say that and also say that Yummies can erase desire and have absolutely no consequences for the universe as a whole. You can't erase "part" of a concept. When you erase it, everything it encompasses goes with it. So when the dinosaur Yummies eat desire, the corresponding concept needs to be erased throughout the universe for it to be considered a real concept.
A minor nitpicking for the second one: the examples I've presented lead me to the conclusion that they came from the general desire, as a single person doesn't invent desire as a whole.

I don't mean that the dinosaur Yummies can destroy desire and it won't have any effect on the world. Although the clip only shows them erasing normal people, they did say that everything would return to nothingness, which implies what would become if OOO and Birth weren't there to stop it. There is Maki too, who wants to reach "the ultimate nothingness where nothing exists" by using the Purple Medals that have the same source as dinosaur Yummies. Both occurrences raise the possibility of a world in which all things will eventually become nothingness when desire is gone.
 
I'm unaware of any details confirming that the coins are the literal concept of desire rather than a manifestation of it.
 
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