Kamen Rider Conceptual Manipulation

[Jamesthetaker]

Hey, it had been a while since we have a proper discussion on the site and i have been going around learning stuffs and even though myself still haven't grasp full knowledge of the subject but i would like to see your thought on this. Today we will talk about Kamen Rider Conceptual Manipulation.

Most of you probably doesn't even know or care much for this so i will give a explain based on my knowledge about it:

Spoiler: Read this

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate abstract concept(s). With it you can create or destroy the universe's fundamental aspect of existence. Altering the concept will change every object in the same way the concept itself was changed, effectively altering reality on a universal, if not higher, scale. It is definitely one of the most powerful ability in the site. There is also different type of Conceptual Manipulation which depend on the scale of reality it affect.

The most common type is Type 3, these concept are bound by the object of the concept and shape entire reality as we known. For example, destroying the concept of time thus time will cease to exist.

On a higher scale is Type 2, these concepts are transcendent and everything in reality is a part of them. For example, the Akashic Records primordial force and governs all creation in VHD-verse, simply using it grant the user's control on everything in the multiverse.

There are Type 4 and 1 but they do not related to this thread as none of the Rider's possess it.

So, what with all of this about? Well, i make this so everybody can discuss about the type of conceptual manipulation of Kamen Rider OOO and Kamen Rider Genm. There was a thread about OOO's concept stuff but it never reached conclusion and i want to discuss more about this topic. I have alot to say but i will let you guys go first then i will clear out from there.

 

[Everything12]

Type 3, as neither of the two have any of the evidence that is necessary for Type 2 and seem very much a part of reality.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

That is very much obvious but there is more than just that. At first, i would like to recall that Putotyra Combo can infused his attack with void manipulation and Ankh pulled out a Core Medal from Momotaros (9:30). This mean that Greeeds can interact with concepts such as manipulate them or damage them normally.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Yeah... i'm not really on board with Greeed being able to damages concepts normally. The ability to destroys core medals is mentioned to be Purple Core Medals very own power. Other than Ankh pulling the core medals from Momotaro's body, there's not much to say Greeed can interact with Core Medals of other creatures in any other way
Hence, limited-Conceptual manipulation would be better.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Actually let me start from the beginning:

In Kamen Rider OOO, the Core Medal are created from desire and from desire born everything else in existence (7:00). A strong desire can grant a being power and they evolve as their desire grow. A Core Medal inherit many abilities from the concept of desire.

Then we come with Cell Medals, the silver Medals come from human desire that hold tremendous power, a single Cell Medal can create Yummy, monsters created by the Greeed and serve as their subordinates when a Cell Medal is used on a human. The characteristic of a Yummy possessed are different depend on the Greeed whom created them, thus their power is a part of the Core Medals.

To summarize up, everything are born from desire and greater desire can change the world (2:20). Core Medals are desire and the source of Cell Medals, the underlying attributes of creation.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I was asked to comment here, but I don't know anything about this verse. From the descriptions I'm reading here it doesn't even sound like conceptual manipulation to me.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Well, the lore are quite weird and if you want i can explain it to you tomorrow since it is late in my place now.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Ogbunabali

Kamen Rider OOO is a series that revolve around desire, greed and medal. There is this coin-like object called O Medals which are the abstract concept of desire being materialized into existence (8:40). Then there is the silver one a.k.a Cell Medals, the lesser version that hold desire of an individual.

The Core Medals are colored one that make up of essence of a Greeed, a literally living masses of desire (6:55). They can create Yummies, an almost similar being created from Cell Medal as their subordinates (0:12).

Yummy devours desire, whatever it's abstract or physical, and turn it into Cell Medals. A Yummy power can be ranged from physical control to mental influence and even affect abstracts like talents, dream or even nothingness.

The main point is Core Medals are entire concept of desire, and in this video (7:00), the red-suited guy stated that everything are born from desire and if desire grow then they will evolve too. Cell Medals is the smaller attributes and they draw power from "the greater desire" to gain power.

=> Core Medals is desire, and the source of creation, if the desire change then the world will change as well (2:20). Cell Medals is smaller desire and represent aspects of reality as whole.

 

[Ogbunabali]

None of those links seem to back up what you're saying though. Nowhere are they called the "abstract concept of desire being materialized into existence" watching those links they just say, once or twice, "they are desire", which is not the same thing at all.

It being the abstract concept of desire is also contradicted in the ep44 link where they outright call desire just "life energy".

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Ogbunabali

(First of all, the ep 48 should be watched at 3:30, my bad)

Desire are abstract concept by nature, and it was put inside the Core Medals as a way to brought it into existence. Hence why those creature stated that they are living desire.

Cell Medals are the manifestation of single desire, with it the Yummy have a variety of power that allow them to manipulate one aspect of reality. Core Medals, however, is entire concept of desire as whole and the source of Cell Medals (5:50).

As you can see in the youtube video, a Yummy are created from that woman desire. Moreover, one of the wiki links explain that the Yummy produce Cell Medals by fullfills their host desire, and devours that person's object of desire. That said, they literally materialized desire itself into existence through Cell Medals.

As for ep 44, it's not a contradiction but he explain that life are fueled by desire, all life forms need desire to exist and greater desire can change the world.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Again, none of your links are supporting your claim that the "desire" they're talking about is the abstract concept. The only thing going for it is their name, which seems like you're extrapolating a headcanon based on that alone.

A Yummy being created, doesn't justify this being an abstract concept either.

So unless there's some actual evidence so support conceptual manipulation, I'm against this being counted as such at all.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Or you have something with Kamen Rider hence refusing it too much

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Ogbunabali

Why it wouldn't? Desire, by it nature, are incorporeal concept and can't be interacted by normal mean. You should know that characters explicitly stated that "desire" being the lore of entire series, not just some kind of metaphor of inner strength (11:20). Hence with the Medals being materialized desire/greed, it already make sense that they're refers the concept of desire as whole.

Ep 44 and 48 explain that even though desire come from living beings, it is the "energy" of life and everything are fueled by desire.

"There is greater power in desire!"

"Behold! From water to the land, then to the sky! A strong desire can even evolve life forms! It is truly the energy of life!"

"The Medals of desire exist to give the world a new life "

"Desire create new civilizations. They guide us to a new height"

Let me quote some explanation the main wikis give:

"Cell Medals are a manifestation of human desire that hold tremendous power, and can be generated by Yummies absorbing targets of human desire."

"Being the incarnation of its' host desire, a Yummy physically devours that person's object of desire and "digest them" into Cell Medals."

With one Cell Medal, a Yummy is created based on that sole desire, simply by fulfill that desire they generate Cell Medals. If a person desire change that Yummy also change as well (5:00). One of my previous point claimed that Yummy power can manipulate an aspect of reality (dream, talents, existence erasure, etc). The power based on human desire/greed which were universally present in the Yummy, should that desire change then it would affecting the physiologic of Yummy. It can be said that a Yummy are the personified of individual desire.

Ep 2 link pointed out that Yummy are popsicle without stick, thus they can be exhausted and replaced. As for the Greeed however they are much greater desire than Yummy. Their body are composed of both type of Medals, Core Medals being the archetypal desire while Cell Medals made of smaller desire. This is why i said that Core Medals are the source that Cell Medals draw from.

I give my explanation while stick to the evidence i presented, it's not based on some headcanon that i made up.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Why it wouldn't? Desire, by it nature, are incorporeal concept and can't be interacted by normal mean. You should know that characters explicitly stated that "desire" being the lore of entire series, not just some kind of metaphor of inner strength (11:20). Hence with the Medals being materialized desire/greed, it already make sense that they're refers the concept of desire as whole.

Again, for the third time. You haven't posted any evidence to back up any of that. The only thing you have given as a reason to why you keep asserting that this "desire" is the "abstract incorporeal concept" is that it's called desire and not any in verse evidence. I'm sorry but this wiki just doesn't work like that. You need actual evidence presented that in verse it's treated as the abstract concept of desire, and not just have it be called something that could, maybe, possibly be interpreted as such.

Ep 44 and 48 explain that even though desire come from living beings, it is the "energy" of life and everything are fueled by desire.

"There is greater power in desire!"

"Behold! From water to the land, then to the sky! A strong desire can even evolve life forms! It is truly the energy of life!"

"The Medals of desire exist to give the world a new life "

"Desire create new civilizations. They guide us to a new height"

Again, this goes against your point that desire is actually an abstract concept and rather it's just generic "life energy" that's called desire.

With one Cell Medal, a Yummy is created based on that sole desire, simply by fulfill that desire they generate Cell Medals. If a person desire change that Yummy also change as well (5:00). One of my previous point claimed that Yummy power can manipulate an aspect of reality (dream, talents, existence erasure, etc). The power based on human desire/greed which were universally present in the Yummy, should that desire change then it would affecting the physiologic of Yummy. It can be said that a Yummy are the personified of individual desire.

Ep 2 link pointed out that Yummy are popsicle without stick, thus they can be exhausted and replaced. As for the Greeed however they are much greater desire than Yummy. Their body are composed of both type of Medals, Core Medals being the archetypal desire while Cell Medals made of smaller desire. This is why i said that Core Medals are the source that Cell Medals draw from.

I give my explanation while stick to the evidence i presented, it's not based on some headcanon that i made up.

Yummy can be created without involving any abstract concepts. Abstract concepts are never even mentioned in any capacity in any of the links you have presented. All of these evidences you're using at best could work as supplementary evidence, but certainly none of them fit any criteria as a primary evidence.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I posted evidence where characters outright stated that "desire" are abstract because it's created from the psyche of living beings, they treated desire as the main source of Yummy and Greeed, which are desire/greed personified. Those desire are driven by humanity consciousness and bound to the object of desire.

You said Yummy can be created without involving any abstract concepts but that's false. They're born from individual desire and devours target of desire then turn it into Cell Medals which is what their body composed of, a living masses of desire. It is the perfect example of how desire shape a being existence.

These statements wasn't contradiction of desire is actually an abstract concept. It support my claim of desire affecting and changing the world, more so as "Life energy" is just a different way to explain how everything run on desire.

At very least with just this alone are enough to fit with our standard of Conceptual Manipulation (Type 4) but the verse have expand more on this.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I posted evidence where characters outright stated that "desire" are abstract because it's created from the psyche of living beings, they treated desire as the main source of Yummy and Greeed, which are desire/greed personified. Those desire are driven by humanity consciousness and bound to the object of desire.

Nothing you have posted has actually said any of that.

You said Yummy can be created without involving any abstract concepts but that's false. They're born from individual desire and devours target of desire then turn it into Cell Medals which is what their body composed of, a living masses of desire. It is the perfect example of how desire shape a being existence.

It very much so can, yes.

These statements wasn't contradiction of desire is actually an abstract concept. It support my claim of desire affecting and changing the world, more so as "Life energy" is just a different way to explain how everything run on desire.

It is a contradiction because there isn't any evidence that it's an abstract concept, but there is evidence that it's the equivalent of something like chakra in the verse.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I'm very busy this week so i can't reply for now. I'll post my argument later in the weekend.

 

[Faiz_Atiq_Jalaluddin]

Okay so let me explained what yummy is :
We start with yuummy first. Yummy are an individual desire manifested . The more simpler way you can see this is that the greeed are the genie that granted a person desire/wish that can be as materialist as "I want to eat all the food in the world " or an idea /concept such as "I want to be a hero" , the way that the greeed grant this desired/wish is by creating the yummy and this yummy action will only resolve around that person desired .
Here an example of yummy :

Kabuto Yummy

The Kabuto Yummy (カブトヤミー, Kabuto Yamī) is a rhinoceros beetle Yummy created by Uva from a girl named Rie Shiratori (白鳥 梨恵, Shiratori Rie, portrayed by Maya Okano), feeding on her supposed desire to become stronger. To that end, while achieving his complete form, the Kabuto Yummy targets Rei's...

kamenrider.fandom.com

This kabuto yummy is created by Rie Shiratori desire to become stronger. The kabuto yummy grant her wish by defeating her kendo classmate , with each people the yummy defeated , more cell medal will be created by the yummy . But here the thing the kabuto yummy didn't take anyone energy to make this cell medal , but instead created this from nothing , the kabuto yummy is literally creating matters and energy out of nothing , and this thing is no joke because only by using only three cell medal kamen rider ooo able to use the finisher of medajaribur (https://kamenrider.fandom.com/wiki/Medajaribur)
name ooo bash that able to cut trough space and time. So back to yummy , they are literary a perpetual motion machine , because as long the yummy grant the desire/wish , they able to create cell medal infinitely.
That are the basic for yummy , if you want more information on yummy you should go to rider wiki.

Next I will post about greeed.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Due to my current circumstance, i barely have any energy left to continue with this thread much less than the time to be here. So i will leave for now to take care of my work but i promise that i will remake this thread in the future.

@Faiz_Atiq_Jalaluddin You're free to continue with this as you wishes. If not then i will request for this to be closed.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Bump

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Please don't bump an old thread, nobody gonna bother with it after a long time.