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Kamen Rider AP Problem

Jamesthetaker

Jamesthetaker

He/Him
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As you may or may not know, there is alot of problem regarding Kamen Riders' AP. I figured out that instead of creating a big revision as whole why not solving each first? So here it is, i will try to make this as straightforward as possible so we can actually get thing done:

Kamen Rider Kuuga​


First is Kamen Rider Kuuga, to be more specific his High 4-C key. The description goes by:

(Comparable to Agito who can harm the Overlord of Darkness who is capable of creating a constellation. The Ultimate Kick is said to be capable of destroying the Planet Earth itself with the resulting blast)

The first sentence come out of nowhere and there is nothing ever indicate that Kuuga Ultimate Form's is comparable to Agito Shining Form's as both series doesn't related to each other. Which mean his Large Star level tier should be removed.

Replacing this will be Planet Level rating which come from his official data and stated in second sentence.

Kamen Rider Gaim​


Second is Kamen Rider Gaim, and the problem lies in EoS/Man of the Beginning key. Similar to Kuuga's case, the 6-A, possible higher rating come out of nowhere and without an proper calc. There is one statement that backup this and it make no sense either:

(Was able to move all of Helheim and the Inves to a distant planet with a wave of a hand, said Helheim forest was surrounding and covering up the whole world in various areas such as China, France, etc. Reshaped the entirety of his own planet)

The feat of Gaim controlling Helheim was was deemed incalculable by Mr.Bambu a while ago. So the current tier is invalid and Unknown rating will replace it instead until we find a way to give him tier.

Kamen Rider Drive and Kamen Rider Ghost​


Oh boy, where do we even start. I'll spare you the details but to sum up, the Continent level tier come from this calc which only applied to Ghost Mugen Damashii Form's a.k.a his strongest form, but someone think it was clever enough to scale it to his base form?! Needless to say that it should be removed.

Then there is Ghost's Moon level+ tier which scale to Drive Type Tridoron Form's. At first, there isn't anything wrong with it but then i realized two things:

1. Kamen Rider crossover scaling is full of inconsistence and outlier. We have discuss over this matter in Discord many times and we come up with agreement that we will focus on in-series scaling then cross-scaling after. This mean that Ghost's Moon level+ tier and Drive's Continent level tier should be removed

2. According to official information, the crossover between Drive and Ghost are non-canon and Ghost novel explain it was an alternate timeline caused by a space-time anomaly. So the cross-scaling was invalid since beginning.

The solution to this are reverting Ghost profile to something like this, albeit with some correction. Drive's profile will go through similar thing into this, and with correction of course.

Kamen Rider Ex-Aid and Kamen Rider Zi-O​


Kamen Rider Ex- Aid profile's got affected by Ghost's so it would make sense that he got similar treatment. Continent level and Moon level+ tier removed and revert back to something like this.

Kamen Rider Zi-O profile's are the same, Continent level removed and got Low 7-C tier back from fighting Another Fourze's who derived from Fourze Base Form's.

Conclusion​


Kuuga's High 4-C tier replaced by 5-B tier via above reason.

Gaim's 6-A, possible higher tier replaced by Unknown tier due incalculable feat.

Ghost's Moon level+ tier and Drive's Continent level tier should be removed. Previous tiering are to be used like this one with correction.

Drive's Continent level tier removed and replace by previous tiering like this one with correction.

Ex-Aid's Continent level and Moon level+ tier removed and previous tiering in this will be used.

Zi-O's Continent level removed and got Low 7-C tier via above reason.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Kuuga's High 4-C tier replaced by 5-B tier via above reason.
Click to expand...
Agree.


Jamesthetaker said:
Gaim's 6-A, possible higher tier replaced by Unknown tier due incalculable feat.
Click to expand...
While it is an incalculable feats, it is known that Rosyuo have casual 6-C feats via Husk of Golden Fruit. So there shouldn’t be any reason that Kouta, a man who gain the full power of the Forbidden Fruit should scale vastly higher than Rosyuo’s feat.
Jamesthetaker said:
1. Kamen Rider crossover scaling is full of inconsistence and outlier. We have discuss over this matter in Discord many times and we come up with agreement that we will focus on in-series scaling then cross-scaling after. This mean that Ghost's Moon level+ tier and Drive's Continent level tier should be removed
Click to expand...
While Kamen Rider have consistency issue. There are crossover that are basically canon and can’t really be denied (OOO/Fourze, Heisei FINALE etc.) so we can completely disregard crossover scaling entirely.


Jamesthetaker said:
Continent level tier removed and replace by previous tiering like this one with correction.

Ex-Aid's Continent level and Moon level+ tier removed and previous tiering in this will be used.
Click to expand...
And as I stare above, their stat should be 6-C instead.
 
As proposed before, crossover scaling should be designated their own tier. I propose something of a similar vein to Godzilla pages, where we divide existing Rider pages into multiple pages based on crossovers or canon.

They will have more or less the same stats besides tier and special crossover forms.

An example would be Super Tatoba OOO. We would have the main canon OOO page, and a page specifically for the movie which would have about the same stats except with the addition of the Super Tatoba form and the lack of any form that wasn't present in the movie.

Now the above was just an example. I'm not entirely sure if the Forze and OOO movie is canon to each other's main series but if it isn't, having separate profiles would be best.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Now the above was just an example. I'm not entirely sure if the Forze and OOO movie is canon to each other's main series but if it isn't, having separate profiles would be best.
Click to expand...
They are canon the events of the movie is refreranced later in fourze series
 
Zi-O can have 7A key through saikyo zikan girade (1) .Raw translation:
The blade of Saikyo Gilade.
Boasts a sharpness that cuts a mountain with a single stroke.
Photons are enclosed in the material as a force carrier, and by injecting energy converted by a second translator, it can be generated into a wide variety of shapes.
Furthermore, by combining with Zikangirade and becoming Saikyo Girade, the natural vibration frequency of the enemy is propagated from the Girade edge, and everything can be easily destroyed in a range that can be transformed.
 
Cutting a mountain in half isn't a 7-A feat. You'd have to get a calc for it and know the size of the mountain first.
 
Nicetoderp said:
While it is an incalculable feats, it is known that Rosyuo have casual 6-C feats via Husk of Golden Fruit. So there shouldn’t be any reason that Kouta, a man who gain the full power of the Forbidden Fruit should scale vastly higher than Rosyuo’s feat.

While Kamen Rider have consistency issue. There are crossover that are basically canon and can’t really be denied (OOO/Fourze, Heisei FINALE etc.) so we can completely disregard crossover scaling entirely.

And as I stare above, their stat should be 6-C instead.
Click to expand...
So, EoS/Man of the Beginning key would be like this:

"6-C, likely far higher (As Man of the Beginning, he should be far superior than Rosyuo due having complete Forbidden Fruit whereas Rosyuo only wielding the husk of one Forbidden Fruit. Was able to move all of Helheim and the Inves to a distant planet with a wave of a hand, said Helheim forest was surrounding and covering up the whole world in various areas such as China, France, etc. Reshaped the entirety of his own planet)".

I'm not keen on using crossover scaling. However that is something for other thread, i want to focus on Ghost and Drive first. Especially since the 6-A feat got mixed up so badly which result into the current state.

Why is Ex-Aid's and Zi-O should be 6-C, btw?
 
Crap, I was waiting for this thread and I'm late to it. Glad we're finally getting some Rider Revisions going here

I'm personally iffy on the "official" stats TV-Asahi provides for Kamen Rider. The stats are fairly vague, don't account for scaling, and some of them say very strange things (like saying Level 1 Riders are stronger than Level 2 Riders). Kuuga definitely doesn't scale to Shining Agito, that I certainly agree with. The Kamen Rider wiki actually doesn't have a citation for the Planet Buster statement for Kuuga and I hear people bring it up all the time so if I could see where that comes from, I could give my thoughts there

Gaim's revision makes sense. Really hope we can solve that can of worms someday

Drive's change sounds good

Ghost's change sounds good

I personally think Genm should have another calc done given in the Ex-Aid novel, he performs what he did for the Moon, but with Mars, which is a significantly larger planet. Just thought that was related to the discussion. Aside from that, change for Ex-Aid seems good

I've recently been binging through seasons and I haven't gotten to Zi-O, so I sadly can't speak there

Also, the sandboxes for your Rider profiles should have the Civilian keys updated. I had to go through a bunch of those since there was faulty scaling and claims. Should be a quick fix
 
Also, a Discord discussion about the scaling and cross-scaling sounds good. I'd be up for that with a given invite
 
The official stats are really bad if used for cross-scaling, although they aren't so bad if used for their own series. Believe it or not, Level 1 Ex-aid riders are stronger than Level 2 and made to fight the big bugsters. Level 2 is better at everything else though.

Also, just saw Zi-O vs Decade. YIKES, those Inves can do serious damage.
 
IxaSaga2 said:
Believe it or not, Level 1 Ex-aid riders are stronger than Level 2 and made to fight the big bugsters. Level 2 is better at everything else though.
Click to expand...
I'm casting heavy doubt on this. The Level 1 Riders aren't more powerful, they just possess the special ability to remove Monster Bugsters from their host. Level 1 Riders get pretty easily overpowered by Level 2 and higher as shown in the battles. This is even supported by Emu and other CR Riders calling Level 2 superior, but admitting that Level 1 is the only way to properly remove Monster Bugsters. If we went by the logic of Monster Bugsters making Level 1 stronger than Level 2, than Level 1 would be superior than Ex-Aid's Final Forms, which just isn't the case
 
In a fight Level 2 would beat level 1 no doubt. It's just that Level 1 can hit harder punch vs punch, kick vs kick although only slightly. That's why I said level 2 is better in every other way.
 
Also I sorta said this before, but thinking about it more, should these revisions be applied, they should be applied manually instead of just reseting it to a previous state given new stuff that's actually valid has been added to keys, descriptions, and abilities. Plus, the old state of the pages have quite the variable of grammar errors
 
Lonkitt said:
Crap, I was waiting for this thread and I'm late to it. Glad we're finally getting some Rider Revisions going here

I'm personally iffy on the "official" stats TV-Asahi provides for Kamen Rider. The stats are fairly vague, don't account for scaling, and some of them say very strange things (like saying Level 1 Riders are stronger than Level 2 Riders). Kuuga definitely doesn't scale to Shining Agito, that I certainly agree with. The Kamen Rider wiki actually doesn't have a citation for the Planet Buster statement for Kuuga and I hear people bring it up all the time so if I could see where that comes from, I could give my thoughts there

I personally think Genm should have another calc done given in the Ex-Aid novel, he performs what he did for the Moon, but with Mars, which is a significantly larger planet. Just thought that was related to the discussion. Aside from that, change for Ex-Aid seems good

I've recently been binging through seasons and I haven't gotten to Zi-O, so I sadly can't speak there

Also, the sandboxes for your Rider profiles should have the Civilian keys updated. I had to go through a bunch of those since there was faulty scaling and claims. Should be a quick fix
Click to expand...

Thank you for your replies.

I'm agree with you that the stats provided by TV-Asahi is iffy but that is only the Rider Statistics and Ability Parameters part. What i am talking about is the description of said Rider which give more consistent information with the show. The Planet Level statement come from that part.

Those isn't really sandboxes, just old edit profiles which i give as a reference.
 
I just want to ask something before we continue with the changes. But the reason why that most Riders in HGF were given a 4-B rating was because Fourze scaled to Wizard who was 4-B. Are we going to worry about Legend Rider scaling at a later date since that'll be a whole other thing we'll can go over.
 
BERRIES555 said:
I just want to ask something before we continue with the changes. But the reason why that most Riders in HGF were given a 4-B rating was because Fourze scaled to Wizard who was 4-B. Are we going to worry about Legend Rider scaling at a later date since that'll be a whole other thing we'll can go over.
Click to expand...
Where does that rating for Haruto come from?
 
It came from Haruto scaling to people like Tsukasa but I’m not sure it’s Fourze should scale. All I know is that that’s why Fourze and the other were 4-Bs. We could change his profile if that messes up things.

I also forgot to mention that James agreed on Gaim’s MoB key to be 6-C likely far higher for vastly upscaing above Rosyuo)
 
Right, does 6-C also apply to other Riders? I never really learnt how they scaled to Gaim
 
Also, if we are going to change Haruto’s key, we should probably only change his key that scales to Fourze. Things like Infinity and Infinity Dragon should still be 4-B.
 
Alright, so I was about to tackle Ex-Aid's page when there was something I was thinking about. Should the Ex-Aid Riders’ Level 2 forms be a little higher than we’re putting them back to? I ask this because in Ghost, Level 2 Genm essentially stomped both Deep Specter and Necrom at the same time. Ghost also attacks Ex-Aid in episode 50, and Emu doesn’t have any problems casually blocking his attacks. Of course Deep Specter and Necrom are significantly stronger than Ore Ghost, but I thought I’d bring it up regardless. At the end of the day, I do believe it makes more sense than just saying they scale to early Build Riders.


TL;DR: Would it be reasonable for Level 1-2 CR Riders to be City level+?
 
well you know what i think about this, if they scale to the Ghost Riders, then Ex-aid Riders should have a boost.
 
@Lonkitt

Thank you for helping me out. All left is Ex-Aid's and Zi-O's.

Fourze's should have their own thread instead.
 
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