Kaguya Ōtsutsuki Revision (Naruto)

[Omimi]

bro Gedō Mazō is still weaken form of jubi/kaguya

atleast it has shown 2 rinngan jutsu

2.Outer Pathemonic Statue Chains used by Gedō Mazō Gedō

3.Black_Receiver is also one of rinngan jutsu by Gedō Mazō

1.kuchiyose Gedou Mazou used by nagato(its probably only has chakra absoptin but its still rinngan jutsu and its also Outher Path so )

number 1 is only Gedō Mazō special power and probably not rinngan jutsu

so i was wrong about it being Human Path .


from DB

kuchiyose Gedou Mazou

Everything is snatched away by the Outher Path's Giant Dragon whirling about!!

Kuchiyose Mazou is the container for the Bijuu chakra, it works as an enslavement jutsu. A dragon is released from the Mazou Kuchiyose, it possess enough power to absorb the Bijuu chakra, with a mere touch ones chakra sticks too it. It's different than the normal summoning blood contract, instead the jutsu user runs the risk of having their life absorbed. Nagato successfully used this Jutsu, because due to his clan's bloodline he possessed a large amount of life energy.

One touch the chakra instantly sticks to the raging dragon.

 

[Damage3245]

The issue regarding the 'Rinnegan jutsu' used by the Gedo Mazo is that these took place when the Gedo Mazo was being directly controlled by a Rinnegan user instead of the Gedo Mazou appearing to do it of its own initiative/ability.

 

[Jvando]

The issue regarding the 'Rinnegan jutsu' used by the Gedo Mazo is that these took place when the Gedo Mazo was being directly controlled by a Rinnegan user instead of the Gedo Mazou appearing to do it of its own initiative/ability.

Question. Wouldn't you have to assume that Obito then somehow turned the Gedo Mazo into its own path of Pain or something? Wouldn't that be the only other way it could use a Rinnegan Jutsu aside from it being able to do so by its own ability? Like comparatively, being controlled by a sharingan doesn't give you its ability (Ninetails, Yagura, That kind of thing.)

Just another comment. The Gedo Mazo being able to use a Rinnegan Jutsu by its own initiative is one thing, being able to use it by its own ability though is another.

 

[Damage3245]

The relationship that the Gedo Mazo has to Rinnegan users is a bit of a weird one, but it appears that Rinnegan users can simply control it at will and use their Rinnegan jutsu through it (at least some of them) without it being treated as one of the Six Paths of ____.

 

[Jvando]

Hmm, so is it more of an assumption to say that the Gedo Mazo has its own Rinnegan abilities? Or is it more of an assumption to say that a Rinnegan user can channel its abilities through the Gedo Mazo without it being a Six Path?

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think any of the abilities the Gedo Mazo uses are explicitely Rinnegan abilities.

For example; shooting a giant dragon made of Chakra out of his mouth isn't something a Rinnegan user has done.

The black rod that pierced Nagato's backs look like they were put there by Madara, so I don't think we can that creating and controlling the black rod is something the Gedo Mazo can do on his own.

And we have seen the Rinnegan users summon and control the Gedo Mazo.

 

[Omimi]

The strongest barrier surpassing the Four Red Yang Formatio
Six Red Yang Formatio
(Õà¡ÞÁñÚÖ¢ÚÖú Musekiyoujin)

A barrier technique (kekkai jutsu) of the highest calibre that cannot be used by anyone else except for ones blessed with the power of the Six Paths (Rikudou). It outdoes the ?Four Red Yang Formation? in scale and solidity; ones with the ?Rinnegan? opened distribute the trademark black recievers (chakra rods) to various places in the area, and will manifest this huge barrier by oneself. It is impossible for anyone to step past this barrier. (Coming from) The Father of Shinobi, that is why such an extraordinary giant red barrier is possible. ÔÇ¿

(Obito casts musekiyoujin)
The barrier?s enormity is beyond even that of the ?Four Red Yang Formation?. Obito encloses the whole battlefield, denying the ninjas? way of retreat.

jubi has black recievers

 

[Damage3245]

@Omimi; by Jubi do you mean Obito?

 

[Omimi]

I don't think any of the abilities the Gedo Mazo uses are explicitely Rinnegan abilities.
For example; shooting a giant dragon made of Chakra out of his mouth isn't something a Rinnegan user has done.

The black rod that pierced Nagato's backs look like they were put there by Madara, so I don't think we can that creating and controlling the black rod is something the Gedo Mazo can do on his own.

And we have seen the Rinnegan users summon and control the Gedo Mazo.

can u provide the scene for that

 

[Omimi]

+ u are assuming too much

Rinnegan users never shown to Chanel their power through others. without it being a Six Path

if Gedo Mazo has no ability then why bother summoning it at first place

 

[Omimi]

@Omimi; by Jubi do you mean Obito?

A barrier technique (kekkai jutsu) of the highest calibre that cannot be used by anyone else except for ones blessed with the power of the Six Paths Rikudou

where do think he got Six Paths Rikudou power

 

[Damage3245]

Here Madara says he created a black rod.

This looks similar to the black rod that emerges from the Gedo Mazo.

I actually doubt this is the exact same rod but it is similar. It may that Nagato is creating the black rod to connect himself to the Gedo Mazo.

Anyway; the Gedo Mazo does have its own abilities - I just don't think that means the Gedo Mazo is a Rinnegan-user.

 

[Jvando]

I don't think any of the abilities the Gedo Mazo uses are explicitly Rinnegan abilities. For example; shooting a giant dragon made of Chakra out of his mouth isn't something a Rinnegan user has done.

Apparently, the data book calls it an Outer Path technique. Not sure if that means it's just another Rinnegan Jutsu but the Gedo Mazo did use it after Nagato Summoned it.

The black rod that pierced Nagato's backs look like they were put there by Madara, so I don't think we can that creating and controlling the black rod is something the Gedo Mazo can do on his own.

I reread the manga scene and I'm not sure how Madara would have had a hand in that since it just appeared to come from the statue itself. I mean, I guess Madara could rig the Rinnegan but not sure he could rig the statue like that...


And we have seen the Rinnegan users summon and control the Gedo Mazo.

I suppose, though I would like to add something. Not sure if this would be considered a false equivalency, but Obito did summon and control the Ninetails with a summoning technique and his Sharingan. Similarly, Obito used what he called a 'Summoning Technique' with a blood offering to summon the Gedo Mazou and he controlled it with the Rinnegan (Though in this case, he didn't get pierced by black receivers). There's no evidence to suggest that the Ninetails gained any sharingan ability despite being controlled by one. Similarly, I'm not sure if there's sufficient evidence to suggest that the Gedo Mazo gained Rinnegan abilities that it hadn't had prior (of course, I may be wrong. I need to reinforce my knowledge on the series).

Just trynna pick your brain a bit with these comments.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; that is pretty interesting. Before we go too deeply into it I want to finish working on my summary of the arguments so far and the responses to them, then we can go into some new topics.

I'll post my summary in a couple of hours.

 

[Omimi]

did u forgot that bz said he was created by kaguya not by madara and trick madara to think he create him

and br were put in clone of hashi not in gm

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not a huge fan of giant walls of text, so I'll post my breakdown behind a hidden collapsible section:

Argument 1: Possible Uses of Six Paths Abilities

Deva Path

In chapter 685, Kaguya uses what at first glance appears to be the Almighty Push technique which is accessible through the Deva Path.

However the actual technique she used is not named, and there is a very clear alternative that it could be.

Response 1: Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack
Supporters of her using the Almighty Push states that her stance is the same as a user of the Almighty Push would do; aiming her hand outward at her targets, however this is also the same stance she took when using the Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack.

Additionally in the anime version of this scene which expands on what we're shown in the manga (which is just the single page), we see that Kaguya uses the Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack, and not the Almighty Push at any point.

Response 2: Lack of Usage Elsewhere
If Kaguya really was capable of using the Deva Path in this way to push her opponents back... why did it not even cross her mind when she was surrounded by Naruto and Sasuke later?

It's one thing for characters to forget their abilities but Kaguya has all the time in the world to think things through and we do actually see her considering her options. If she had an omnidirectional gravity wave capable of repelling her opponents, then it would have crossed her mind.

Preta Path
In chapter 682, Black Zetsu states that Kaguya can absorb 'any and all jutsu' and she seemingly demonstrates this later in the chapter by apparently absorbing Sasuke's Amaterasu.

Black Zetsu does not state that this is due to the Preta Path's ability and I have reason to think that it is not:

Response 1: Visual Differences
In the majority of cases whenever a user of the Preta Path absorbs a jutsu their body is surrounded by a noticeable effect as they draw the jutsu in to themselves.

Examples can be seen here, here and here.

Kaguya has no such aura around her. Instead the Amaterasu appears to simply disappear.

It is entirely possible that whatever allows her to absorb incoming jutsu is an entirely different method to the Preta Path. Since, after all, it is not stated that the Preta Path is the only method of absorbing Ninjutsu.

Response 2: Black Zetsu
When Kaguya has paralyzed both Naruto and Sasuke, instead of touching them directly, she uses Black Zetsu as a medium to absorb their chakra.

Users of the Preta Path can absorb chakra with direct contact; yet Kaguya notably does not.

Absorbing chakra is not a unique trait to the Preta Path in the series either, lots of characters have displayed this ability. So even if Kaguya could absorb their chakra directly herself, it is not conclusive proof of her using the Preta Path.

Argument 2: Sasuke's Statement
In chapter 678, Sasuke refers to the Infinite Tskuyomi as 'Rinnegan Genjutsu'. This of course carries the implication that if the Rinnegan is used to cast the Genjutsu then the user has the Rinnegan.

Response 1: Lack of Objectivity
To be clear, Sasuke is not an objective authority for information. He is uncertain about whether the Genjutsu can even be cancelled out by his Rinnegan, and he has never heard of the term 'Rinne Sharingan' in his life. He wouldn't know the proper terminology for it.

If anything, Sasuke called it 'Rinnegan Genjutsu' because he only knew that Madara had the Rinnegan for his eyes already.

Response 2: Hagoromo's Statement
In chapter 671, Hagoromo states that his mother wielded the power of the Sharinga in order to put the populace under a Genjutsu.

Hagoromo is a more trustworthy source of information from Sasuke on this, especially in regards to Kaguya.

Response 3: Hagoromo's Statement Cont.
Earlier in that very page, Hagoromo states that Madara is attempting to come close to his mother's power. By this point Madara has already became the host for the Ten-Tails.

The only way he could come closer to her is if he actually awakened the Rinne Sharingan (something which she has that he does not) which he later had to do in order to activate the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

If the Infinite Tsukuyomi was a pure Rinnegan technique, then the user should not need to awaken the Rinne Sharingan before activating it.

Conclusion
In my responses to the first argument, I have demonstrated how it is not only plausible but likely that Kaguya has not actually displayed any of the Six Paths techniques in the series at all.

In my responses to the second argument, I believe I have outlined exactly why we should not consider the Infinite Tsukuyomi to be a pure Rinnegan technique and therefore why its usage does not imply the ability to use the Six Paths techniques either.


As a side note, we also don't treat the Ten-Tails as possessing the Six Paths techniques despite also possessing the Rinne Sharingan.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Heavily agree with you, Damage. I also find it hypocritical that the anime can be used to support things like Naruto dodging Light Fang but some are not allowing the anime to be used in this thread to show that Kaguya did not use Almighty Push.

She has no actual undeniable usage of a Path and any plausible vague scenario can easily be explained through another way. She does not probably have the Six Paths.

 

[AstralKing7]

YOur argument for the preta path is pure head canon. The preta path is literally the only form to absorb ninjutsu. Besides the Karma Seal and Kisames Super water shark bomb jutsu, rinnegan is the only thing that absorbs ninjutsu. So your wrong about other abilities that can absorb jutsu, those abilities can only absorb chakra by direct touch.

Also amatarsu didn't seem to disappear it started to get smaller indicating it being absorbed when she put her hands forward.

Lastly Sasuke never had any visual effect around him when she uses the preta path

Next to discuss Kaguya not use preta path directly on the body. Any knowledgeable member of the Naruto fan base would understand that Kaguya didn't want to give Naruto and Sasuke the opportunity of having a chcance to touch her if she had got too close. Hell thats the reason why Kaguya froze them in ice and split them across dimensions.

 

[Damage3245]

> The preta path is literally the only form to absorb ninjutsu.

Where in the manga is it stated that it is only possible to absorb jutsu through the Preta Path?

> Lastly Sasuke never had any visual effect around him when she uses the preta path

When did Sasuke in the manga use the Preta Path to absorb a jutsu?

I am aware only of when he used it to directly absorb Naruto's chakra from his body.

 

[Xulrev]

Damage is pretty factually correct here, as he has been since the beginning.

No strong argument has been put forth as of yet to dispel his original thesis. '[X] character does not showcase these abilities and has no reason to possess them' has been met with about 8 separate versions of the rebuttal 'Okay well I believe they should'. That's not an argument, it's an assertion.

Damage has sourced his reasons quite clearly and succinctly and at length. It's not even a downgrade yet people are acting as if Damage is personally assaulting them and their beliefs, good grief.

Remove the abilities she hasn't showcased by feats, and move on.

 

[AstralKing7]

Factually correct??? Damage himself has said nothing but things that he personally believes. Please take moments to actually read what's being said


@damage

It's the only ability besides Karma Seal to absorb ninjutsu because it's the only ability shown to do it Damage. Any other absorption ability has only be shown to absorb pure chakra from thebody with direct chakra


Also let's not forget that preta path also changes and nullifies ninjutsus when it starts.

 

[Damage3245]

The main distinction AstralKing7 is that I have linked evidence to support what I personally believe.

Just because the Preta Path was previously the only known ability to absorb Ninjutsu does not negate the possibility of there being another one. Especially since there are no direct statements proving that the Preta Path is the only ability capable of absorbing Ninjutsu.

As you've just proved the existence of the Karma Seal proves that it is not a completely unique ability.

 

[SinsofMan]

Damage has been quite patient with both of you two, Omimi and Astral, making assumptions without evidence and also providing arguments for why he believed it and has been willing to compromise.

You two, on the other hand, have not.

That is all, unfollowing this thread.

Still fine with the compromise. Personally still think Damage is correct, and that is that.

 

[Jvando]

Gonna agree with Damage for now (never thought I would type these words). It's not that big a deal anyway since Kaguya wouldn't use them in a Vsbattles. Plus, if Boruto shows us a character similar to Kaguya who has the Rinne-Sharingan (and no plain Rinnegan) we could always just add it back to her profile. Personally still think "possibly" is a good compromise, but again, I can't say I care if they are removed from her profile.

Imma unfollow after this.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

I agree with damage. I also believe such a minor revision in no way needed a CRT that has continued for this long.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I will agree with Damage. Also, I concur with Callsign. The level of debate for something so minor should not have required this much back and forth.

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you SinsofMan, Jvando, Callsign Castle and TheC2.

I think that the changes should be acceptable to implement now - but I will notify a staff member first so that there are no issues.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Why would they be implemented? According to the tally above majority disagree, including a staff member.

 

[Damage3245]

@Wrath; the above tally was incorrectly counted.

Going by the amount of people actually contributing to the thread, the majority are in agreement with removing them.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Then you should make a more accurate tally.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody provide a TLDR summary here, along with listing who agree and disagree?

 

[Damage3245]

Ant; the Tl;dr summary for the arguments is that the arguments supporting Kaguya having the Six Paths abilities are based on ambiguous panels in the manga and speculative reasoning.

IMade, Xulrev, SinsofMan, JVando, Callsign Castle, TheC2, Paul Frank and Ronnijuro agree with me for removing the abilities.

AstralKing7, Omimi and Wrath of Itachi are the most active people still disagreeing. Shadowbokunohero also disagreed but hasn't been back to the thread since the new breakdown the arguments was posted.

TataHakai said that it seems agreeable for the most part.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that it should probably be fine to remove the abilities then. I will open the profile. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[BlackeJan]

Glad this is over

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you Ant. I have made the changes now.

You can close this thread if you want.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.