Kaguya Ootsusuki losses removal

[JingleFloor]

A lot of Kaguya's losses should be removed from her profile due to stomp and unfair due to state differences.

Also a lot of these previous losses have tons of one liner votes w/ no explanation

Kaguya vs Deoxys - This battle wasnt even put into depth, just a few Deoxys will EZ her and thats it, the votes were accepted and the thread was closed.

Kaguya vs Darth Sidious - This battle had major Star Wars wanking and NLF on force usage and people kept downplaying Kaguya's counter to Darth Sidious's telepathy. Burden of Proof on Sidious, no one could prove that Kaguya COULDN'T hold off on her own. + There was a massive speed difference,

Kaguya vs Shinnok - Kaguya blitzes the opponent, and has enough speed to kill him before he can fight back

Kaguya vs Megaman- One line votes w/o explanations aren't even allowed + Megaman's stats are above Kaguya even when nerfed.

Kaguya vs Blossom - high speed gap

Kaguya vs Link - No conclusion was made, an unvoted victory added to Link's profile

 

[LTB2000]

I agree, not to mention Kaguya was outclassed in AP for most of these fights.

 

[Reppuzan]

1) Deoxys can easily match Kaguya in mind hax on top of a speed advantage.

2) Not NLF when Star Wars hax is just that strong. Whether you believe it to be so or not is up to you.

3) Kaguya is badly outhaxed and has no way of putting Shinnok down

4) I was on this thread extensively. Speed was equalized, AP was about the same (Low 5-B to Low 5-B) and we stripped away Mega's time hax just to make it an even fight. I'd say it was fair.

5) I'll actually agree with this one due to the speed stomp rule.

6) There was quite a bit of reasoning, but due to the reaction speed gap I suppose this could be taken out as well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with Rep for the most part, and also Link should stay. It wasn't a stomp due to Kaguya's wonderful hax, but Link had perfect counters. Also, you listed all of her losses.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan I don't think that we have a speed stomp rule, but I may misremember.

 

[Dekoshu]

Which losses should actually be removed, and if so, who would be willing to put her against somebody who can beat her, but also likely to lose to her?

 

[Yamatohime]

Which losses should actually be removed, and if so, who would be willing to put her against somebody who can beat her, but also likely to lose to her?

Well, we can do something like this but it is hard sometimes to deal with raging fans.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Reppuzan I don't think that we have a speed stomp rule, but I may misremember.

I believe you added it after that whole Speed Stomp thread.

• Kindly do not create spite or stomp threads, whether by tier, speed or an absurd difference in hax proficiency (that is, a very hax character vs one with little to no hax) unless the other character possesses abilities that compensate for this advantage.

 

[LordAizenSama]

There is a speed stomp rule, tthough it's upto ones interpretation of when it crosses into stomp territory.

 

[Reppuzan]

Well, I always assumed that if the speed gap is the Mach 3000+ to Sub-Relativistic then there would be no realistic way for the former to catch up.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

If you're going to be 'realistic' then 3x speed is probably more than anyone can actually deal with, let alone the rediculous gaps a single speed tier bring to the table, but we aren't quite that 'realistic' when comparing stats here because we would not be able to have very many battles that way.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Also I think it might be a good idea to wipe all losses of a character that seems to lose to everyone in their tier and bump them down to a tier where they could reasonable win.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that would take too much unnecessary work.

 

[Phantasys]

It just sounds like a naruto fan is butthurt.

 

[Dekoshu]

It just sounds like a naruto fan is butthurt.

Excuse me, but that is not a nice thing to say to anyone. I am fully aware that Kaguya can lose, but losing too often can get very tiring.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

It just sounds like a naruto fan is butthurt.

This is a problem and it doesn't just effect kaguya, but anyone who doesn't have enough vocal fans here to defend them against people who dislike them or who want to use them as fodder.

I could probably go try and make a dozen threads right now that put goku against someone in his tier who would stomp him just barely slightly enough that it could squeak through a casual look and get added to a profile... except the dbz fans would revolt in large numbers and draw enough attention that it wouldn't work.

Less popular or actively disliked characters have no such protection, apparently not even from standard stomp rules that would force stat equalization or something to even allow a match to happen when a more popular character is the one on the losing end of a matchup.

 

[Dekoshu]

That's absurd and irrational. You know what? You might as well further enforce the rules to minimize bias, so they can either reluctantly choose to vote for someone but find valid points on why a person they disliked may have the advantage, or go to some other thread without causing senseless drama. I don't go with popularity alone. Also, you might as well as put in bold how we want people to be unbiased and civil. No spite threads and the others, and if they fail to do so, then they can go to another thread. But if they deliberately continue to spite not only the fighters in threads, but the other users who partipated at the threads, including with Kaguya, then they so do at their own risk. And if they are validly blocked, who will be at fault?

 

[LordAizenSama]

If you're going to be 'realistic' then 3x speed is probably more than anyone can actually deal with, let alone the rediculous gaps a single speed tier bring to the table, but we aren't quite that 'realistic' when comparing stats here because we would not be able to have very many battles that way.

Speed is not the only factor in a fight and theres multiple variations of it. This is really not necessary

Also I think it might be a good idea to wipe all losses of a character that seems to lose to everyone in their tier and bump them down to a tier where they could reasonable win.

And this definitely will not be happening. It's not that serious a problem.

 

[Antvasima]

Dekoshu is hard to understand, but I think that he means that you went a bit over the line Phantasys, which I agree with.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Aizen.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

It's just one possible solution to a problem that definitely exists, though granted it's probably one of the most work intensive possible solutions.

Characters are getting fodderized, though. Kaguya and Saitama are just examples of characters who are treated as fodder to pump up other characters profiles, getting slipped into stomp matches far more often than legitimate ones with people not seeming to care since they aren't popular or there's some underlying community dislike that makes people want to look the other way.

 

[Dekoshu]

The community being hated, is what you're saying? And this underlying community dislike that makes people want to look the other way?

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Sword I think you may be overexaggerating a bit.

For starters, if they're getting fodderised and stomped as obviously as you say they are, people usually point it out as such and the thread gets closed.

If the match is close enough that the votes go through and the people don't think that it's a stomp, it's probably because it isn't. We don't have a clearcut value for at what point a fair match crosses the boundary into a stomp/mismatch.Theres no real way to combat that and if one just sneaks through like that it just happens.

People may dislike Kaguya but Saitama is not fitting your argument very well. Hes hugely popular and I don't know of anyone on this site who dislikes him. He just has uphill battles as you could imagine with his abilities.

I Honestly don't think this is such a issue at all. take a deep breath and relax, it's supposed to be fun afterall. If you come across what you think are stomp threads on profiles just write it out on their profile talkpage or you could ask staff to look at it (also feel free to remove offsite ones, we don't use those anymore)

 

[FateAlbane]

Characters are getting fodderized, though. Kaguya and Saitama are just examples of characters who are treated as fodder to pump up other characters profiles, getting slipped into stomp matches far more often than legitimate ones with people not seeming to care since they aren't popular or there's some underlying community dislike that makes people want to look the other way.

I don't know about Kaguya, and sorry for what I'm about to say (offtopic), but I kinda lol to myself whenever this sort of thing happens to Saitama, because everytime I tried to argue about him somewhere else, I was persecuted like a "witch" during the Inquisition by everyone just because I tried to make a point. /facepalm

 

[Dekoshu]

Since Lord Aizen says it's not that serious, nothing will be removed of her losses.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also, to be fair, Kaguya has a significant amount of flaws in combat. Even with her hax, unless she's bloodlusted, she might not even use them properly, as she was outsmarted in battle by characters who supposedly shouldn't be able to do so. That might be PIS, though, so I'll refrain from blaming her on actually falling for stuff like Harem no Jutsu.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Dekoshu I haven't looked extensively at her profile but I think what Reppuzan said earlier regarding her matches and which ones should be removed seems fine to me.

 

[Dekoshu]

Also, you might as well make her have equal bloodlust. I swear, people need to start thinking "...Hmm...you know, this user has a great point. We should find a not so one-sided battle for Kaguya. And put aside our dislikes for once."

 

[Volundox]

1. People gave the reasoning of hax and it was completely unanimous decision made within the thread.

2. You've argued for Kaguya's resistance to mind hax before and have not proven it in any way, this is you attempting to dismiss a victory by falsely using NFL.

3. Entirely your own opinion and has no bearing on a stomp match. People made arguments for Kaguya speed blitz and people in the thread still voted for shinnok unconvinced, including staff members.

4. Was debated and speed equalised to give Kaguya an even bigger chance. Also had input from staff members.

5. Kaguya has more hax but blossom has more speed. This is simply hax vs speed and speed won.

6. A multitude of staff members supported the victory beign added and the thread remained for a short time afterwards.

Many of these were debated and few were considered stomp threads within the threads by the staff which participated. The only one that are objectively stomps are deoxys and sidious, one of which you argue is just wrong rather than a stomp. If they were stomps then the staff would have removed rather than debating them.

A 3x speed gap as argued above is far too small, it would be a massive issue when debating FTL characters since the category is absurdly broad. Just deleting losses from characters who have alot of them is showing alot of bias to one character.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

@Aizen I don't mind if people keep their losses they already have or anything, and I'm not the most interested in kaguya in particular or anyone else, I'm just annoyed at people seeming to regularly abuse that vague line of 'stomp/not a stomp' when they are making matchups. A lot of people make matches totally for fun or out of curiosity or to have a discussion and that's great. It's the 'guys its not a stomp don't close the thread... buy character A totally wins 10/10 and B has no chance to do anything exDee' threads that make me roll my eyes.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

@Volundux I didn't ask for anyone to label 3x as a speed blitz for the sake of this wiki, it's just an observation about how we have to bend logic a bit and add some leeway in order to make things interesting around here because of how varied the stats of fictional characters are. In a real life fistfight between say two boxers, you can observe obvious speed blitzing between two fighters who are peak human at most, with neither ever coming close to the kinds of speed difference multipliers we handwave off around here for the sake of keeping fights interesting.

Also you need to go back and reread my the rest of my comment about erasing losses if you're going to bring it back up. If a character only has losses and its a lot of them they clearly are in the wrong tier, so I was suggesting that in that case you should lower the characters tier - how is arguing that a character should be lower tier some sort of bias? Obviously if you drop a character's tier than all their losses to higher tier characters count as stomps and should be removed, that just logically follows from the idea that those matches should never have happened in the first place because they were mismatches. It doesn't matter anywaysince it would be an unreasonable amount of work for the staff.

 

[Volundox]

@Volundux I didn't ask for anyone to label 3x as a speed blitz for the sake of this wiki, it's just an observation about how we have to bend logic a bit and add some leeway in order to make things interesting around here because of how varied the stats of fictional characters are.
Also you need to go back and reread my the rest of my comment about erasing losses if you're going to bring it back up. If a character only has losses and its a lot of them they clearly are in the wrong tier, so I was suggesting that in that case you should lower the characters tier - how is arguing that a character should be lower tier some sort of bias?

1. I misread and admit fault

2. A character who has alot of losses within their own tier is not in the wrong tier. Characters are based off their powerlevels, kaguya is in the 5B range as she is evidently able to destoy either a small or ordinary sized planet. It would be bias to arbitrarily move a character down a tier and remove losses just so that they would be matched up against character who they clearly outmatch just to pad their wins/losses.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Look, either it's accurate to use tiers to determine who fights who for the sake of fairness, or its accurate to use 'who they can reasonably fight' to determine who fights who.

What would be bias against a character is to continuously let them have matches where they always get stomped by anyone in their 'weight class' as if it was proving anything after the point where they obviously can't hang in that weight class. If kaguya or anyone else just isnt strong enough to match up to people in their tier, then they are probbaly in the wrong tier.

Otherwise you have this situation where 'tier' loses any useful meaning and might as well just stick with Ap if that's all that determines tier.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is a character indexing site first, vs thread board second. So no, we're not changing tiers for the sake of battles.

 

[Denpahero]

I guess when a character gets popular enough the fans of the series start to rave and hype up the persons abilities and when others hear about how powerful this character is they are like " if they are really that powerful then they can take it " and after that it can lead to alot of mis or one sided matches like with Saitama people say he can oneshot anyone but his feats have not backed that clame. I think this is more a case of characters being over hyped than complete mismatchs

( just my thoughts on stuff like this in general )

 

[LordAizenSama]

Yeah @SwordDancer that's not how it works at all, like Howard said.

Anyway this is getting ridiculously offtopic. so i'm closing this.