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Kagami Shouko vs Iihiko Shishime
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
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bump
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Can't she just use Law Manipulation to prevent his abilities?
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The point is, why would law manip work in the first place?
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Celestial Pegasus once mentioned in a thread that she probably has low 2-C hax, though I can't confirm that.
Has Iihiko ever negated law hax, though?
Has Iihiko ever negated law hax, though?
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It's not so much affecting him directly though it's a law of existence. Placed on existence. Pretty sure he still abides by laws of existence.
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bump.
Agnaa
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@DT Well, Iihiko nulled all of Ajimu's and Medaka's skills, and we know that Najimi Ajimu has lawhax, but we don't know for certain that her lawhax is from a skill (even though it almost certainly is).
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I think we can safely conclude that all of Ajimu's abilities come from skills. When she is counting out her arsenal for Kumagawa, she only mentions skills, and even mentions how many of each are plus and minus skills.
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What laws was he able to erase again? I actually totally forgot lol
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I don't think Ajimu has any feats of law manip on Shouko's level of potency.Agnaa said:
Agnaa
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@Iapitus He was able to erase the law which made it so that only a hero could wield the Hero's Sword, with anyone else being unable to pull it out or use it in battle.
@DT Fair enough. Her only law feat is creating the law I just described.
@DT Fair enough. Her only law feat is creating the law I just described.
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Ah, that's right. Thanks. I guess that makes whatever her name is with the ability to wield legendary swords skill rather pointless. Did the heroes sword have any other abilities beyond that? I remember it had something about the ability to diminish the self but nothing more than that
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The Low 2-C potency thing for a start.
But also that Ajimu, to my knowledge, has no feats like just casually rewriting the worlds laws with her imagination. Given, I admit that I don't remember what the entire sword thing was about.
But also that Ajimu, to my knowledge, has no feats like just casually rewriting the worlds laws with her imagination. Given, I admit that I don't remember what the entire sword thing was about.
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Ehh, but Iihiko has powernulled other abilities that are (even though I disagree with it) accepted at 4-D potency.
I think it's reasonable enough to say that if Iihiko has 4-D powernull, and has powernulled 3-D law manip, that he should still be able to null 4-D law manip.
That feat you presented sounds more like how quickly/often Kagami uses law manip, rather than a feat of potency.
The sword thing was from the MB novels, a few of which got translated recently. You can read them here.
I think it's reasonable enough to say that if Iihiko has 4-D powernull, and has powernulled 3-D law manip, that he should still be able to null 4-D law manip.
That feat you presented sounds more like how quickly/often Kagami uses law manip, rather than a feat of potency.
The sword thing was from the MB novels, a few of which got translated recently. You can read them here.
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Small scale 4-D potency << Low 2-C potency.
And spacetime erasure like that is generally viewed as hax, not as potency feat.
That should be even more the case with the tiering revision in place, given that higher-D stuff on small scale is in general not accepted as feat of power anymore.
It's more that Kagami can overcome all the laws of the world that makes it somewhat more potent than... creating a law that makes it impossible to pull out a sword?
Anyways, I don't think Iihiko can do anything Kagami, due to his limited range and lack of flight, in addition to the fact that Kagami can dodge via law hax. So eventually Kagami could also simply finish this via nuking the universe.
And spacetime erasure like that is generally viewed as hax, not as potency feat.
That should be even more the case with the tiering revision in place, given that higher-D stuff on small scale is in general not accepted as feat of power anymore.
It's more that Kagami can overcome all the laws of the world that makes it somewhat more potent than... creating a law that makes it impossible to pull out a sword?
Anyways, I don't think Iihiko can do anything Kagami, due to his limited range and lack of flight, in addition to the fact that Kagami can dodge via law hax. So eventually Kagami could also simply finish this via nuking the universe.
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I didn't realize we treated potency like that. I thought all 4-D hax potency was equal until it bypassed resistances.
Sadly more than just All Fiction was accepted as 4-D. Real Eater's considered 4-D since it would have worked on All Fiction. Bookmaker's considered 4-D since it worked on Real Eater. Both Bookmaker and AF were nulled by Iihiko.
She can overcome all laws of the world? Like, a qualitative transcendence over them? Because if she can just manipulate a lot that doesn't mean it's more potent.
I don't think Kagami using an ability to make Iihiko's attacks miss would work. Encounter is pretty close to that but didn't work.
Also, how does Kagami get around possession? It's (again, to my dismay) accepted as working on whoever kills Iihiko if there's no suitable double around.
Sadly more than just All Fiction was accepted as 4-D. Real Eater's considered 4-D since it would have worked on All Fiction. Bookmaker's considered 4-D since it worked on Real Eater. Both Bookmaker and AF were nulled by Iihiko.
She can overcome all laws of the world? Like, a qualitative transcendence over them? Because if she can just manipulate a lot that doesn't mean it's more potent.
I don't think Kagami using an ability to make Iihiko's attacks miss would work. Encounter is pretty close to that but didn't work.
Also, how does Kagami get around possession? It's (again, to my dismay) accepted as working on whoever kills Iihiko if there's no suitable double around.
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I don't think real eater should be 4-D. However, as said, I doubt that being 4D in this manner actually matters.
Her creation exists higher than the worlds laws, she can completly ignore all of them and can rewrite them as she sees fit.
The difference to encounter is that encounter allows contact. Iihiko negates abilities that affect him, but not the effects that just happen around him.
I doubt he can possess anyone if he's destroyed together with his entire universe. If she can kill him via law manip, on the other hand, she can also prevent the possession via law manip.
Her creation exists higher than the worlds laws, she can completly ignore all of them and can rewrite them as she sees fit.
The difference to encounter is that encounter allows contact. Iihiko negates abilities that affect him, but not the effects that just happen around him.
I doubt he can possess anyone if he's destroyed together with his entire universe. If she can kill him via law manip, on the other hand, she can also prevent the possession via law manip.
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Her profile says she needs prep to destroy the universe.
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True. Prep can be done mid-battle, though, if the opponent has no way to really harm you.InfiniteSped said:
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Is her law manip passive?
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It's imagination based as far as I am aware.
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What's generally her first move in a fight?
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No idea.
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Her law manipulation is passive, essentially if you can't surpass her imagination, you can't hit her.
Reality warping is her go to ability if i remember correctly.
She should also have time and fate manipulation since Ether allows her to control time and destiny but i am lazy.
Reality warping is her go to ability if i remember correctly.
She should also have time and fate manipulation since Ether allows her to control time and destiny but i am lazy.
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Law manip is Shouko's first move yes
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What do you mean by surpass her imagination?
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Can you show an example of her passive law manip defending her?
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| Lisbeth could see the 21 cannon lines fired from high in the night sky, but she did not bother following them as she spoke. At first glance, it looked like they had been hit back, but that was not the case. "Did you make it so they didn't hit!?" She understood what had happened more than how. The cannon blasts had definitely been on course for a direct hit. They did not know what was there, but the attacks had been set to track that ether output. It should have been an automatic bull's eye. There were 2 possible reasons why they did not hit. 1: They had been dodged. 2: They had been blocked. But they were up against the Black Witch here. There was a 3rd option that she alone could choose. In other words… "3: They simply 'didn't hit'." That witch held the same power that had created this world. She could rewrite the laws around her as she saw fit, so she could make an attack "not hit". Or from their perspective… … Our attack power wasn't enough to match the Black Witch's imagination! Simply put, she could grasp and rewrite anything within her imagination. Imagination formed the foundation of creation. And the only ones who could surpass the Black Witch's imagination were the top Rankers in Shinagawa and their Magino Devices which had had their sniping power increased to the limit. But… | ||
~ Volume 4, Chapter 6 |
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That sounds more like she's actively making the cannons not hit. Have an example of it being passive?
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Hmm well i guess it's not passive, i didn't exactly save every instance of her doing it and don't feel like searching for it.
Anyway i am not really interested in this match, just gonna provide info on Shouko if i feel like it.
Anyway i am not really interested in this match, just gonna provide info on Shouko if i feel like it.
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Okay, then . . .
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So, tell me if I'm not understanding this right, to damage her, they need to attack her with something she cannot come up with or cannot percieve?
Like, if someone used a wacky ass stand from Jojo like Jumping Jack Flash, Green Green Grass of Home, Tusk, or Tomb of Boom, and it was so crazy that she couldn't have come up with it, then it would work on her (or at least bypass this ability specifically)?
Like, if someone used a wacky ass stand from Jojo like Jumping Jack Flash, Green Green Grass of Home, Tusk, or Tomb of Boom, and it was so crazy that she couldn't have come up with it, then it would work on her (or at least bypass this ability specifically)?
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Would a rubberband being throwned at her count as wacky ? 
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@DT I think that explanation means that she wouldn't be affected by 4-D law manip, but that her law manip is still baseline 4-D and only needs a baseline resistance to be resisted.
But that explanation of why it should work anyway makes sense. I'd be fine saying law manip works if she uses it to help herself dodge, but I'm much more doubtful if she uses it on Iihiko himself.
Considering that Iihiko's legend comes from "Passing down the legend" I don't think there's a physical/spiritual substance that would be destroyed along with the universe preventing Iihiko from possessing Kagami. Or in other words, I think the possession would probably still happen.
But that explanation of why it should work anyway makes sense. I'd be fine saying law manip works if she uses it to help herself dodge, but I'm much more doubtful if she uses it on Iihiko himself.
Considering that Iihiko's legend comes from "Passing down the legend" I don't think there's a physical/spiritual substance that would be destroyed along with the universe preventing Iihiko from possessing Kagami. Or in other words, I think the possession would probably still happen.
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@Iapitus Shouko makes attacks not hit her because her power is the same power which created the universe, thus she can rewrite the laws around her as she likes.
From other ppl's perspective it's that their power isn't enough to match her imagination since she can grasp and rewrite anything in her imagination, and her imagination is what created the universe.
From other ppl's perspective it's that their power isn't enough to match her imagination since she can grasp and rewrite anything in her imagination, and her imagination is what created the universe.
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So what exactly would bypass this? What is does it mean to be "beyond her imagination"?
Wait, does this mean it just needs to be outside of something she can comprehend?
Wait, does this mean it just needs to be outside of something she can comprehend?
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The way it's said is that only the Top Rankers at their max can hit her and resist her ability.
Shouko has created many stories, this story of her being the Black Witch attacking Earth is the current one but various other stories like some sort of sci fi which involves space travel existed.
Kagami Kagami basically chased Shouko through countless world/stories but failed until the current one, the others Shouko had already left and only like an Avatar of her was there cause those worlds were already in the process of being destroyed.
Now that i think about it Shouko should have Dimensional Travel too.
Shouko has created many stories, this story of her being the Black Witch attacking Earth is the current one but various other stories like some sort of sci fi which involves space travel existed.
Kagami Kagami basically chased Shouko through countless world/stories but failed until the current one, the others Shouko had already left and only like an Avatar of her was there cause those worlds were already in the process of being destroyed.
Now that i think about it Shouko should have Dimensional Travel too.
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