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JUJUTSU KAISEN SPEED DOWNGRADE CONT.

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Steve_Rogers1 said:
A Mach 3 blitzing a Mach 1 from well outside of melee range is not consistent
Click to expand...
JJK has very consistently shown that small numerical disparities can go on to have major influence in the context of combat.

  • Nanami could go from struggling against Mahito at 80% power to visibly shocking him at 120%
  • Yuji, Todo and Mahito reaching 120% is seen as very notable in Shibuya
  • Megumi's current Domain exists with the exclusive goal of taking his technique to 120%
  • a 200% Mahito was heavily outclassing 120% Yuji

A 3x speed difference being blitz territory would not be anything new for the franchise, if anything one could argue it's more aligned with that Gege is trying to portray.
 
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Cyberblader90 said:
peak human naoya was faster than sound per maki's admission, with acceleration of course

0193-011.png
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this wasn't peak naoya, it was the early cursed womb stage
 
AdNiBN002 said:
JJK has very consistently shown that small numerical disparities can go on to have major influence in the context of combat.

  • Nanami could go from struggling against Mahito at 80% power to visibly shocking him at 120%
  • Yuji, Todo and Mahito reaching 120% is seen as a very notable in Shibuya
  • Megumi's current Domain exists with the exclusive goal of taking his technique to 120%
  • a 200% Mahito was heavily outclassing 120% Yuji

A 3x speed difference being blitz territory would not be anything new for the franchise, if anything one could argue it's more aligned with that Gege is trying to portray.
Click to expand...
This is going to suck in VS threads
 
AdNiBN002 said:
JJK has very consistently shown that small numerical disparities can go on to have major influence in the context of combat.

  • Nanami could go from struggling against Mahito at 80% power to visibly shocking him at 120%
  • Yuji, Todo and Mahito reaching 120% is seen as very notable in Shibuya
  • Megumi's current Domain exists with the exclusive goal of taking his technique to 120%
  • a 200% Mahito was heavily outclassing 120% Yuji

A 3x speed difference being blitz territory would not be anything new for the franchise, if anything one could argue it's more aligned with that Gege is trying to portray.
Click to expand...
None of these things have to do with speed and how it is handled on the wiki. If an autjor os creating inconsistencies or doesnmt understand physics/their scales we don’t make stupid rules up like “mach 1.5 person will blitz a mach 1 person!”. Narratively it makes bo sense for mach 1 to be anything special based on the precedence of feats.

mods made this very clear last thread and the example of the flash thread was given as a direct analogue to this situation.

speed is dostance over time and we kiterally, in this very thread, have gone over instances in JJK and at large of people slower than certain projectiles dodging them (see maki and yuji’s feats). So no, maki being blitzed by mach 3 speeds from several dozen meters is not going to be hand-waved.

it’s either i consistent or literally everyone under high tier is peak humanz
 
Dr._whiteee said:
None of these things have to do with speed and how it is handled on the wiki. If an autjor os creating inconsistencies or doesnmt understand physics/their scales we don’t make stupid rules up like “mach 1.5 person will blitz a mach 1 person!”. Narratively it makes bo sense for mach 1 to be anything special based on the precedence of feats.

mods made this very clear last thread and the example of the flash thread was given as a direct analogue to this situation.

speed is dostance over time and we kiterally, in this very thread, have gone over instances in JJK and at large of people slower than certain projectiles dodging them (see maki and yuji’s feats). So no, maki being blitzed by mach 3 speeds from several dozen meters is not going to be hand-waved.

it’s either i consistent or literally everyone under high tier is peak humanz
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that "X power disparity will always lead to Y getting blitzed/stomped."
I'm saying that a character getting blitzed by someone who is 3x their speed isn't some absurd phenomenon within the current continuity of power.
As for feats, they would take precedence if they didn't conflict with multiple statements from the source material.

The author has outright noted on multiple occasions that being within the Transonic to SoS range is abnormally fast:
  • Human Naoya was portrayed (twice) to be fast
  • Cursed Womb Naoya was noted as fast
  • Piercing Blood was noted to be fast

The likes of Yuji dodging projectiles faster than them wouldn't be inconsistent either as many of the feats in question have asterisks surrounding them.
Unless we want to say that it's outright impossible for someone within the JJK verse to get blitzed by someone 3x their speed, then the speed portrayal isn't inconsistent here.
 
AdNiBN002 said:
I'm not saying that "X power disparity will always lead to Y getting blitzed/stomped."
Click to expand...
That is what you were implying though and it's why the inconsistency matters in the first place.
AdNiBN002 said:
I'm saying that a character getting blitzed by someone who is 3x their speed isn't some absurd phenomenon within the current continuity of power.
Click to expand...
Blitzed? Yeah, that would be a problem. Make was blitzed from dozens of meters away, meaning the fact that she could not react would make her pre-awakening speed even more egregious. She would literally being around peak human level taking those statements at face value, which is clearly inconsistent.
AdNiBN002 said:
As for feats, they would take precedence if they didn't conflict with multiple statements from the source material.
Click to expand...
And said statements you are utilizing are also clearly not consistent in of themselves. Painting Mach 1 Noaya as impressive is not consistent with much slower characters having speed feats any notable percentage of or surpassing said speed.
AdNiBN002 said:
The author has outright noted on multiple occasions that being within the Transonic to SoS range is abnormally fast:
  • Human Naoya was portrayed (twice) to be fast
  • Cursed Womb Naoya was noted as fast
  • Piercing Blood was noted to be fast
Click to expand...
And they can still be fast, the point is that the author does not really understand how mach 1 fits into the existing speed scale that they have created. If all of the above things are truly mach 1 and that speed is truly something to marvel in the verse, then yes, there are many inconsistencies given the feats we've seen and the power level (mid tier Yuji and Maki being subsonic-hypersonic) of those who performed them.
AdNiBN002 said:
The likes of Yuji dodging projectiles faster than them wouldn't be inconsistent either as many of the feats in question have asterisks surrounding them.
Click to expand...
Yes it would. I don't know what you mean by asterisk but reacting to bullets from the distance he was is not going to give anything below subsonic levels of speed and maki has a litany of supersonic to hypersonic speed feats. So yes, trying to use the sound statements > the existing speed feat scale means that an inconsistency exists. Yuji was clearly not 60% of projection sorcery when he did his feat and Maki was clearly not narratively faster reacting to Mai's bullets. Meaning, Gege didn't know how fast they had to be and didn't take said things into account with his statements. Irregardless the feats exist as on panel things that happened and we saw, which is why it is ridiculous to me to simply slap "statements" over the pre-existing scale when those statements aren't consistent and obviously not as explicit as feats.
AdNiBN002 said:
Unless we want to say that it's outright impossible for someone within the JJK verse to get blitzed by someone 3x their speed, then the speed portrayal isn't inconsistent here.
Click to expand...
Dude, it depends on the distance. That is what I am trying to tell you. Speed is just distance > time. If someone is 3x faster than a JJK character than they likely have a small advantage given basic starting distance. Trying to put a special label on JJK so that 3x speed becomes an auto blitz is ridiculous, as opposed to the blatantly obvious conclusion that Gege's statement is simply invalid (especially given their precedent for such things in the past).
 
Dr._whiteee said:
And they can still be fast, the point is that the author does not really understand how mach 1 fits into the existing speed scale that they have created. If all of the above things are truly mach 1 and that speed is truly something to marvel in the verse, then yes, there are many inconsistencies given the feats we've seen and the power level (mid tier Yuji and Maki being subsonic-hypersonic) of those who performed them.
Click to expand...
So effectively what we're aiming for is that the author statements would be invalid as the level of speed that Gege is trying to portray does not align with the feats that characters have displayed in the past?
 
Arkenis said:
Shouldn’t happen though. No real reason to ignore the author. It’s actually crazy we have to go through this for a simple downgrade.
Click to expand...
I mean it should when there's clear evidence of them moving faster than what the author wants established. This is the reason Netero isn't supersonic+
 
AdNiBN002 said:
So effectively what we're aiming for is that the author statements would be invalid as the level of speed that Gege is trying to portray does not align with the feats that characters have displayed in the past?
Click to expand...
We have already been through that and NO. We are done, now we are looking for feats
 
Jjk generally has subsonic feats for most the cast. With very few hypersonic feats pre Maki > mach 3
 
Gonna be a somewhat longer post just for speed scaling the top tiers. Making it longer so I can drop everything I have to say in one post rather than multiple broken up posts where the points can get lost.

Volume 0 Yuta, Rika, Geto and everyone who scales to or above them...basically the Culling Games Top tiers, Kenjaku etc should all be above Toji and Maki

Volume 0 Rika should be relative to Volume 0 Gojo based on the entire narrative of volume 0 itself. Gojo saying he'd have to risk his life to stop Rika if need be, Gojo outright saying that Geto wouldn't start a war he doesn't plan to win followed by Geto saying him getting Rika would boost his chances of victory up from below 20% to 99% 2 or 3 pages later etc.

But even if you don't believe this scales to Volume 0 Gojo for whatever reason...(Keep in mind Volume 0 Gojo isn't Current Gojo, so it's not even inconsistent with Gojo's main JJK manga portrayal), this would at the very least, bare minimum scale Rika above the 3rd year Gojo that Geto last saw. Geto already knows about all of year 2 Gojo's abilities, and in Year 3 Gojo actively updated Geto and Shoko on what he's been learning.

If Toji was able to blitz people on V0 Rika and Geto's level despite being under Teen Gojo, that wouldn't make sense narratively or scaling wise. Gege making implications that going from Hakari and Kashimo to Maki, Kamo and Naoya's battle was a downgrade in terms of scale also supports that she doesn't scale to the top tiers even if she has a feat that they don't have.

Hell, Yuji, who saw everything that Sukuna did in Shibuya first person, came to the conclusion that Base Yuta who was only using reinforcement/cqc and partially manifested Rika would be able to kill 15 finger Sukuna. Whether you believe Yuji is correct or not isn't really relevant as it would mean Yuta scales to Sukuna's speed enough for him to not get blitzed and one shotted by something like Cleave which Yuji has seen Sukuna do from experiencing it himself when he's far slower than Sukuna, and first hand from Sukuna's PoV.

A full power Toji was compared to 3 Finger Sukuna in terms of speed by Megumi, and that version of Sukuna was nerfed by not having a heart as well as just messing around with Megumi and not really trying. Meanwhile this prime, reincarnated Toji was forcefully bloodlusted and had no reason to be holding back, so more consistency for the top tiers being > Toji and Maki.

Naoya who can go Supersonic at max speed being absolutely terrified of Base Yuta implies there's a massive speed gap, as what good are any hax abilities if you can't catch the target? And Naoya is extremely prideful and cocky, yet he cucked down to Yuta hard. As for Naobito being the fastest sorcerer, literally nobody was around to witness Yuta vs Geto, and Yuta has been in Africa for months, so nobody knows how strong he is. Hakari's Jackpot is circumstantial, which is the same reason why he's above Yuta (stat wise at least) with Jackpot despite Yuta being universally considered second to Gojo in a general sense. And those that did witness it would have to 1.) See Hakari operating at that level of speed when we've seen in character he holds back in Jackpot. (Didn't kill Charles, matched Base Kashimo's speed in chapter 186, then matched full power Kashimo's speed in 188, then blitzed full power Kashimo in the last 8 seconds of 188, showing he holds back to match speeds of worthy opponents at least.) And 2.) Know Hakari's speed and Naobito's speed exactly or in a general sense to compare them, when any witnesses, even Elite Grade 1 Sorcerer tiers would just get blitzed. Like trying to compare something 50x faster than you and 100x faster than you. All very unlikely. The other Culling Games top tiers aren't from this era so they don't count.

TLDR: Culling Games Top tiers > Volume 0 Yuta and Rika >~< Volume 0 Gojo >>> 3rd Year Teen Gojo > Awakened 2nd year Gojo > Full Power/Non fatigued Unawakened 2nd Year Gojo > HI Toji ~ Current Maki > Mach 3 Naoya

Current Base Yuta (close enough in speed that Yuji who saw everything Sukuna did in first person believes Yuta could potentially kill him based on what he showed in the Yuta vs Yuji scuffle. Even if Yuta doesn't scale to 15 Sukuna's full power that Yuji might not be aware of, he'd scale to the speed Sukuna showed) >~ 15 Finger Sukuna's Shibuya feats >>>>> 3 Finger Sukuna w/ no heart while holding back immensely ~ Bloodlusted Shibuya Toji ~ Current Maki > Mach 3 Naoya

Pretty cut and dry scaling
 
Jo-Smooth said:
TLDR: Culling Games Top tiers > Volume 0 Yuta and Rika >~< Volume 0 Gojo >>> 3rd Year Teen Gojo > Awakened 2nd year Gojo > Full Power/Non fatigued Unawakened 2nd Year Gojo > HI Toji ~ Current Maki > Mach 3 Naoya

Current Base Yuta (close enough in speed that Yuji who saw everything Sukuna did in first person believes Yuta could potentially kill him based on what he showed in the Yuta vs Yuji scuffle. Even if Yuta doesn't scale to 15 Sukuna's full power that Yuji might not be aware of, he'd scale to the speed Sukuna showed) >~ 15 Finger Sukuna's Shibuya feats >>>>> 3 Finger Sukuna w/ no heart while holding back immensely ~ Bloodlusted Shibuya Toji ~ Current Maki > Mach 3 Naoya
Click to expand...
I'd agree with this but rn we don't know how Gege's gonna do the scaling.
 
Jo-Smooth said:
Gonna be a somewhat longer post just for speed scaling the top tiers. Making it longer so I can drop everything I have to say in one post rather than multiple broken up posts where the points can get lost.

Volume 0 Yuta, Rika, Geto and everyone who scales to or above them...basically the Culling Games Top tiers, Kenjaku etc should all be above Toji and Maki

Volume 0 Rika should be relative to Volume 0 Gojo based on the entire narrative of volume 0 itself. Gojo saying he'd have to risk his life to stop Rika if need be, Gojo outright saying that Geto wouldn't start a war he doesn't plan to win followed by Geto saying him getting Rika would boost his chances of victory up from below 20% to 99% 2 or 3 pages later etc.

But even if you don't believe this scales to Volume 0 Gojo for whatever reason...(Keep in mind Volume 0 Gojo isn't Current Gojo, so it's not even inconsistent with Gojo's main JJK manga portrayal), this would at the very least, bare minimum scale Rika above the 3rd year Gojo that Geto last saw. Geto already knows about all of year 2 Gojo's abilities, and in Year 3 Gojo actively updated Geto and Shoko on what he's been learning.

If Toji was able to blitz people on V0 Rika and Geto's level despite being under Teen Gojo, that wouldn't make sense narratively or scaling wise. Gege making implications that going from Hakari and Kashimo to Maki, Kamo and Naoya's battle was a downgrade in terms of scale also supports that she doesn't scale to the top tiers even if she has a feat that they don't have.

Hell, Yuji, who saw everything that Sukuna did in Shibuya first person, came to the conclusion that Base Yuta who was only using reinforcement/cqc and partially manifested Rika would be able to kill 15 finger Sukuna. Whether you believe Yuji is correct or not isn't really relevant as it would mean Yuta scales to Sukuna's speed enough for him to not get blitzed and one shotted by something like Cleave which Yuji has seen Sukuna do from experiencing it himself when he's far slower than Sukuna, and first hand from Sukuna's PoV.

A full power Toji was compared to 3 Finger Sukuna in terms of speed by Megumi, and that version of Sukuna was nerfed by not having a heart as well as just messing around with Megumi and not really trying. Meanwhile this prime, reincarnated Toji was forcefully bloodlusted and had no reason to be holding back, so more consistency for the top tiers being > Toji and Maki.

Naoya who can go Supersonic at max speed being absolutely terrified of Base Yuta implies there's a massive speed gap, as what good are any hax abilities if you can't catch the target? And Naoya is extremely prideful and cocky, yet he cucked down to Yuta hard. As for Naobito being the fastest sorcerer, literally nobody was around to witness Yuta vs Geto, and Yuta has been in Africa for months, so nobody knows how strong he is. Hakari's Jackpot is circumstantial, which is the same reason why he's above Yuta (stat wise at least) with Jackpot despite Yuta being universally considered second to Gojo in a general sense. And those that did witness it would have to 1.) See Hakari operating at that level of speed when we've seen in character he holds back in Jackpot. (Didn't kill Charles, matched Base Kashimo's speed in chapter 186, then matched full power Kashimo's speed in 188, then blitzed full power Kashimo in the last 8 seconds of 188, showing he holds back to match speeds of worthy opponents at least.) And 2.) Know Hakari's speed and Naobito's speed exactly or in a general sense to compare them, when any witnesses, even Elite Grade 1 Sorcerer tiers would just get blitzed. Like trying to compare something 50x faster than you and 100x faster than you. All very unlikely. The other Culling Games top tiers aren't from this era so they don't count.

TLDR: Culling Games Top tiers > Volume 0 Yuta and Rika >~< Volume 0 Gojo >>> 3rd Year Teen Gojo > Awakened 2nd year Gojo > Full Power/Non fatigued Unawakened 2nd Year Gojo > HI Toji ~ Current Maki > Mach 3 Naoya

Current Base Yuta (close enough in speed that Yuji who saw everything Sukuna did in first person believes Yuta could potentially kill him based on what he showed in the Yuta vs Yuji scuffle. Even if Yuta doesn't scale to 15 Sukuna's full power that Yuji might not be aware of, he'd scale to the speed Sukuna showed) >~ 15 Finger Sukuna's Shibuya feats >>>>> 3 Finger Sukuna w/ no heart while holding back immensely ~ Bloodlusted Shibuya Toji ~ Current Maki > Mach 3 Naoya

Pretty cut and dry scaling
Click to expand...
This implies that being stronger than someone automaticallly means they're faster by proxy, which is not really the case within the JJK verse.
 
So Maki and Hakari would be at the very least 3x faster than Naoya, and others would upscale from that.
 
Pain_to12 said:
Hakari is another thread anyway
That needs to be evaluated
Click to expand...
found some issues with that calc anyways, some values where mixed up

using a mach 11 electrcity end needs to be done along with the 1.6, but lightning speed is far more consistent with Kashimo's lightning, but thats for another thread ig
 
Shey said:
found some issues with that calc anyways, some values where mixed up

using a mach 11 electrcity end needs to be done along with the 1.6, but lightning speed is far more consistent with Kashimo's lightning, but thats for another thread ig
Click to expand...
We need to evaluate your calc, have you poseted it in the calc evalutaion thread or do you need help doing that>
 
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