Jujutsu Kaisen - Scale

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Yep also this may be a little nitpicky but on Maki's scale it says his sister instead of "her sister"

There’s a bunch of grammar things that can be nit picked actually but it’s fine we can fix those if it gets fully accepted

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

That scale does look good to me, one thing I would mention tho is that you don't need to mention physicals at all in AP, you just need to mention physicals in Striking Strength and Durability

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

There’s a bunch of grammar things that can be nit picked actually but it’s fine we can fix those if it gets fully accepted

Although when we finish here next should be a speed CRT right
Since that’s unsettled

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I say the scale is busted.

Hanami​

Attack Potency: At least Large Town Level (Physically Comparable to Jogo. Stronger than Aoi Todo. His Cursed Technique is capable of damaging himself and comparable beings. Much stronger than Dagon)

Durability: At least Large Town Level (Able to takes innumerable attacks from Itadori Yuji and Aoi Todo), at most Mountain Level (Survives four simultaneous Black Flash. He is far more durable than Jogo)

Jogo​

Attack Potency: Mountain Level normally (Even though he was extremely sad he was considered on a completely different level to Dagon, even though the shamans had seen all of Dagon's Domain Expnasion and all of his true power in action. Strongest than Sukuna with 3 fingers), likely Large Mountain Level with Maximum Meteor (Is a Maximum Technique, which Kamo compares the power of with the Domain Expansion), Large Mountain Level with Domain Expansion

Durability: Mountain Level (Able to takes attacks from casual Sukuna with 15 fingers and casual Gojo)

---

The problem if Hanami is Mountain level is that we'll have early series 2nd grade and semi-1st grade Mountain level characters.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Although when we finish here next should be a speed CRT right
Since that’s unsettled

Yes, will have a discussion about speed. But it will probably be extremely simple

 

[RageComment]

"Everyone" agreed.
I certainly don't.
Though I get that I can be outvoted.

I just see so many issues with this scaling perspective.
From calculations, I view as faulty or incorrectly done, to scaling assumptions that I reject and believe contradict canon.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I say the scale is busted.

Hanami​

Attack Potency: At least Large Town Level (Physically Comparable to Jogo. Stronger than Aoi Todo. His Cursed Technique is capable of damaging himself and comparable beings. Much stronger than Dagon)

Durability: At least Large Town Level (Able to takes innumerable attacks from Itadori Yuji and Aoi Todo), at most Mountain Level (Survives four simultaneous Black Flash. He is far more durable than Jogo)

Jogo​

Attack Potency: Mountain Level normally (Even though he was extremely sad he was considered on a completely different level to Dagon, even though the shamans had seen all of Dagon's Domain Expnasion and all of his true power in action. Strongest than Sukuna with 3 fingers), likely Large Mountain Level with Maximum Meteor (Is a Maximum Technique, which Kamo compares the power of with the Domain Expansion), Large Mountain Level with Domain Expansion

Durability: Mountain Level (Able to takes attacks from casual Sukuna with 15 fingers and casual Gojo)

---

The problem if Hanami is Mountain level is that we'll have early series 2nd grade and semi-1st grade Mountain level characters.

You could have commented earlier

I edited it wrong, Hanami is not comparable to Jogo

 

[RageComment]

I don't agree with Large Town Level being used for all these characters.
Nor Large Mountain.

I can somewhat see the Mountain Level for Dagon's domain, and characters scaling, but I still think that inflates things dramatically.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Honestly, you had a LOT of time to discuss this when I posted yesterday the scale. But when it is finally accepted you decide to change

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Mentioned it earlier, though I guess it got buried. And I among other said early on that scaling domains to physicals will cause a lot of scaling problems.

Hanami physically scales above Jogo, with Jogo having an elemntal advantage.

 

[RageComment]

I was busy most of yesterday and I didn't expect people to accept things that I see as questionable to this degree.
I pushed back on the Finger Bearer Calculation because it is very difficult to accurately scale that one.

The issue with shadows not necessarily being equal to water
The amount of stone being hard to quantify (in the anime no stone at all was vaporized)

I could go through each character and point out why I think there are issues, but it would take a bit of time.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Mentioned it earlier, though I guess it got buried. And I among other said early on that scaling domains to physicals will cause a lot of scaling problems.

Hanami physically scales above Jogo, with Jogo having an elemntal advantage.

Mh. I think it is possible to consider Jogo's physique as Large Town only. Although well, this scan just say it is less durable

 

[Gitagon]

I say the scale is busted.

Hanami​

Attack Potency: At least Large Town Level (Physically Comparable to Jogo. Stronger than Aoi Todo. His Cursed Technique is capable of damaging himself and comparable beings. Much stronger than Dagon)

Durability: At least Large Town Level (Able to takes innumerable attacks from Itadori Yuji and Aoi Todo), at most Mountain Level (Survives four simultaneous Black Flash. He is far more durable than Jogo)

Jogo​

Attack Potency: Mountain Level normally (Even though he was extremely sad he was considered on a completely different level to Dagon, even though the shamans had seen all of Dagon's Domain Expnasion and all of his true power in action. Strongest than Sukuna with 3 fingers), likely Large Mountain Level with Maximum Meteor (Is a Maximum Technique, which Kamo compares the power of with the Domain Expansion), Large Mountain Level with Domain Expansion

Durability: Mountain Level (Able to takes attacks from casual Sukuna with 15 fingers and casual Gojo)

---

The problem if Hanami is Mountain level is that we'll have early series 2nd grade and semi-1st grade Mountain level characters.

Honestly, this scale seems super unrealistic given what we've seen in the manga. I personally have never felt that any of the characters were that strong in pure physical strength or defence.

Now with Domains and techniques like Jogo's meteors or volcanoes or Gojo's purple, I can see that but it's still iffy on the durability aspect.

As someone else said, this inflates things far larger than what is presented in the series because for 1:

- characters with Domains, even powerful ones or even techniques like Jogo, still seem to be in the same physical class as characters without Domains or special techniques that increase AP.

And with Black Flash, it's powerful but doesn't seem to go so far despite the ^2.5 amp. Otherwise the difference in damage would be massive.

Yuji vs Mahito is a clear example of this, their normal hits hurt each other & with Black Flash, the damage is more but they can still stand after. The damage is not as exponential.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Honestly, this scale seems super unrealistic given what we've seen in the manga. I personally have never felt that any of the characters were that strong in pure physical strength or defence.

Now with Domains and techniques like Jogo's meteors or volcanoes or Gojo's purple, I can see that but it's still iffy on the durability aspect.

As someone else said, this inflates things far larger than what is presented in the series because for 1:

- characters with Domains, even powerful ones or even techniques like Jogo, still seem to be in the same physical class as characters without Domains or special techniques that increase AP.

And with Black Flash, it's powerful but doesn't seem to go so far despite the ^2.5 amp. Otherwise the difference in damage would be massive.

Yuji vs Mahito is a clear example of this, their normal hits hurt each other & with Black Flash, the damage is more but they can still stand after. The damage is not as exponential.

Apparently you don't know the "At most" classification

 

[Yoyco]

Still heavily disagree with them getting any form of scaling to their domain expansions. Which is just asking for inconsistencies, outliers and inflations in the near future.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

But the Domain Expansion don't scale. At no time do we say that

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Summary of the discussion

• Dagon and Jougo's domain is accepted
• Dominions and Maximum Attacks do not scale to the normal statistics
• If the calculation of the curse evaporating the cave is accepted, numerous characters will scale (Hanami, Mahito, Itadori, Dagon, Naobito, Choso, etc)

^Am I correct?

.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

If I understand correctly, Jogo is Mountain level because he scales above Dagon's Domain Expansion, and Black Flash is Mountain level because it can kill Jogo.
The top-tiers are likely Large Mountain level because Jogo's meteor likely scales to his Domain Expansion.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Basically. It is also because the god-tiers have cursed energy considered to be far above Jogo's and are able to make the cursed energy flow equally throughout the body (And other things, but mostly this)

 

[Gitagon]

Can Yuji obliterate a mountain with or without Black Flash?

Or basically, what exactly does "mountain level" mean here?

Because in my head, when I hear mountain level, I imagine someone punching a mountain and outright obliterating it, just blowing it away into rocks and dust.

And when I hear mountain level durability, I imagine someone taking that same hit and tanking it.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Can Yuji obliterate a mountain with or without Black Flash?

Or basically, what exactly does "mountain level" mean here?

Mountain Level = 100 megatons. It is not necessarily necessary to destroy a mountain itself

 

[RageComment]

On this site you don't have to destroy a mountain to be mountain level.
It can get a bit wonky, but magic and powers do that in fiction.

That said, I don't really agree with mountain scaling to AP aside from Domain and what not.

For instance the Meteor that Jogo unleashes, hits the ground and does damage, But it doesn't even take out a city or town.

In general I don't like scaling different powers to each other when it contradicts what is on panel.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

But this contradicts your previous statement that domains don't scale.

But the Domain Expansion don't scale. At no time do we say that

Which is proven to be controversial, and introduces problems such as the logical conclusion that Goodwill Grade 2s should be Mountain level.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

But this contradicts your previous statement that domains don't scale.

Actually no. We discussed earlier that Jogo scales above Dagon's domain expansion because he is considered "Other level" in comparison to Dagon and his full power, which includes the domain. A expansion is made of cursed energy, the shamans feel the cursed energy of the domain. The only way they can consider Jogo a different level is if the shamans feel his power. It is not just "Lol he is strong than Dagon", there a logic

Which is proven to be controversial, and introduces problems such as the logical conclusion that Goodwill Grade 2s should be Mountain level.

What? Absolutely no shaman grade 2 scale to the 7-A

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Actually no. We discussed earlier that Jogo scales above Dagon's domain expansion because he is considered "Other level" in comparison to Dagon and his full power, which includes the domain. A expansion is made of cursed energy, so the shamans feel the cursed energy of the domain. The only way they can consider Jogo a different level is if they feel his power. It is not just "Lol he is strong than Dagon", there a logic

Then that is a weak justification.
It could be as simple as: "Judging by the quality of Dagan's Domain and how much energy it would require, he is Class A. Judging by the energy we are sensing from Jogo he is Class A+".

What? Absolutely no shaman grade 2 scale to the 7-A

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Then that is a weak justification.
It could be as simple as: "Judging by the quality of Dagan's Domain and how much energy it would require, he is Class A. Judging by the energy we are sensing from Jogo he is Class A+".

Obviously they would not speak so specifically. They are fighting for their lives

Hanami is not usually more durable than Jogo, it is only at most. If we consider that he is normally more durable than Jogo, he would also be stronger in terms of AP, which is false. I explained this in the blog

 

[RageComment]

Obviously they would not speak so specifically. They are fighting for their lives

Hanami is not usually more durable than Jogo, it is only at most. If we consider that he is normally more durable than Jogo, he would also be stronger in terms of AP, which is false. I explained this in the blog

Then something is wrong here, because Hanami is more durable than Jogo, that is canon

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

This does not change anything I said

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Obviously they would not speak so specifically. They are fighting for their lives

The problem is that making an mountain sized domain does not neccessities Mountain level AP in fiction, as this depends on the power system. For example, in the Nasuverse there are characters who can make Reality Marbles that contains a sun or a starry sky, but this does not mean that they are Star or Multi-Solar System level in AP.

Hanami is not usually more durable than Jogo, it is only at most. If we consider that he is normally more durable than Jogo, he would also be stronger in terms of AP, which is false. I explained this in the blog

Huh? First time I hear of Jogo usually being tougher than Hanami, citation? I know you have a theory, but is there a statement from the story, volume extras, or interviews?
If he can sometimes be Mountain level in durability, what stops him from sometimes being Mountain level in AP?
Why doesn't Jogo have this inconsistent and variable scaling? Wouldn't it be better if we had a scaling chain without inconsistencies?

 

[Dalesean027]

One's domain expansion doesn't scale to their own normal AP ot Stats. Dagon's Domain is Mountain level and Jogo scales above that normally because and in base is considered casually stronger than anything Dagon could do even through his domain as he's seen as immediately more superior to anything Dagon has showed. That's why he's mountain at base.

likely Large Mountain Level with Maximum Meteor (Is a Maximum Technique, which Kamo compares the power of with the Domain Expansion)

And to reiderate this maximum Meteor is also a Maximum technique which compares to the power of a domain expansion justifying that of course having a rating Higher than Jogo's base attack

All that aside the calc's themselves and other things to scale characters to these ratings have been accepted so "feeling like" this isn't true to the characters or the story doesn't make matter because we're not discussing your feelings they aren't a factor. Also furthermore this doesn't contradict narrative at all when these top tier-god tiers are considered to be supremely powerful threats and are treated as such.

 

[Dalesean027]

Mountain Level = 100 megatons. It is not necessarily necessary to destroy a mountain itself

Also this is blatantly true

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The problem is that making an mountain sized domain does not neccessities Mountain level AP in fiction, as this depends on the power system. For example, in the Nasuverse there are characters who can make Reality Marbles that contains a sun or a starry sky, but this does not mean that they are Star or Multi-Solar System level in AP.

I did not assume a random value. I calculated the energy

Huh? First time I hear of Jogo usually being tougher than Hanami, citation? I know you have a theory, but is there a statement from the story, volume extras, or interviews?
If he can sometimes be Mountain level in durability, what stops him from sometimes being Mountain level in AP?

There are interviews where it is mentioned that Jogo is superior to Hanami. You have to use logic. You know very well that Jogo is stronger. But, if you consider that EVERY TIME Hanami is more durable than Jogo he will automatically be stronger than Jogo (since he is able to fight people who damage him), which doesn't make sense.

 

[RageComment]

Then I think we have to reject Dagon's Domain being Mountain level.
OR reject Base Jogo scaling above Domain Dagon.

Because this scaling chain results in Mountain Level Maki, Kamo, Megumi and what not.

Hanami Dura > Jogo Dura, this is fact from the canon.
Jogo would die from the same Beating that Hanami got.

But Megumi (Especially the Demon Dog), Maki and even Kamo's blood attack
Were able to damage Hanami.

 

[Dalesean027]

If he can sometimes be Mountain level in durability, what stops him from sometimes being Mountain level in AP?

This can also literally be written away by saying he's more durable than a casual Jogo or that Jogo is stronger and could have literally grown fully beyond Hanami having more dura than him

I did not assume a random value. I calculated the energy

There are interviews where it is mentioned that Jogo is superior to Hanami. You have to use logic. You know very well that Jogo is stronger. But, if you consider that EVERY TIME Hanami is more durable than Jogo he will automatically be stronger than Jogo (since he is able to fight people who damage him), which doesn't make sense.

As he said it wouldn't make any sense to just assume he would automatically be stronger than Jogo and more durable than him at every point in the series. So I'm not really sure why yall're pushing this weak arguement like that

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Hanami Dura > Jogo Dura, this is fact from the canon.
Jogo would die from the same Beating that Hanami got.

But Megumi (Especially the Demon Dog), Maki and even Kamo's blood attack
Were able to damage Hanami.

Yep. The "At most" adjusts the scale

 

[RageComment]

I did not assume a random value. I calculated the energy

There are interviews where it is mentioned that Jogo is superior to Hanami. You have to use logic. You know very well that Jogo is stronger. But, if you consider that EVERY TIME Hanami is more durable than Jogo he will automatically be stronger than Jogo (since he is able to fight people who damage him), which doesn't make sense.

Jogo is "technically stronger" because Jogo is super-effective
Hanami is plant type and Jogo is Fire type

 

[RageComment]

But according to Canon, base to base they should be equal (AP not Dura), aside the type match up.
It's like a level 50 Charizard and Level 50 Venasaur

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

One's domain expansion doesn't scale to their own normal AP ot Stats. Dagon's Domain is Mountain level and Jogo scales above that normally because and in base is considered casually stronger than anything Dagon could do even through his domain as he's seen as immediately more superior to anything Dagon has showed. That's why he's mountain at base.

Doesn't follow. If Jogo scales above Dagon, and Dagon doesn't scale to his Domain, why scale Jogo to Dagon's Domain?

And to reiderate this maximum Meteor is also a Maximum technique which compares to the power of a domain expansion justifying that of course having a rating Higher than Jogo's base attack

All that aside the calc's themselves and other things to scale characters to these ratings have been accepted so "feeling like" this isn't true to the characters or the story doesn't make matter because we're not discussing your feelings they aren't a factor. Also furthermore this doesn't contradict narrative at all when these top tier-god tiers are considered to be supremely powerful threats and are treated as such.

Edgy! Whelp, sorry for discussing things in the CRT forum.

Before we discuss the specifics, can you bring me a calc for Maximum Meteor being Large Mountain level?

I did not assume a random value. I calculated the energy

We can also calculate the energy for a pocket reality that has a sun. Doesn't mean that every character who creates a pocket reality with a sun normally has Star level AP. This depends on the power system.

There are interviews where it is mentioned that Jogo is superior to Hanami. You have to use logic. You know very well that Jogo is stronger. But, if you consider that EVERY TIME Hanami is more durable than Jogo he will automatically be stronger than Jogo (since he is able to fight people who damage him), which doesn't make sense.

Can you reference them all so we can take a look? I only recall a comparision from one volume extra.

As per the volume extra, Jogo is technically stronger due to his elemental advange; he uses fire attacks while Hanami is a plant-type. But if they fought an opponent with no elemental advantage or disadvantage, I'd say their likelihood to win is the same.

The volume extra indeed states that Hanami is super tough compared to Jogo. Not that he is 'sometimes tough' compared to Jogo. If Jogo took some of the punishment Hanami tanked, he'd die instantly.
It doesn't make sense because scaling to Domain creates inconsistencies, and you are trying to create a band-aid by giving Hanami inconsistent scaling. If we don't scale to Domains everything should make sense.

This can also literally be written away by saying he's more durable than a casual Jogo or that Jogo is stronger and could have literally grown fully beyond Hanami having more dura than him

Jogo would die instantly if he took the damage Hanami did. Doesn't matter if he is casual or not.

As he said it wouldn't make any sense to just assume he would automatically be stronger than Jogo and more durable than him at every point in the series. So I'm not really sure why yall're pushing this weak arguement like that

Can you provide a statement that Hanami is less durable than Jogo at any point in the series?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Okay, I was confused by this comment

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

We can also calculate the energy for a pocket reality that has a sun. Doesn't mean that every character who creates a pocket reality with a sun normally has Star level AP. This depends on the power system.

I really don't understand your point. I am not scaling the domain expansion to Dagon's normal AP, I am scaling it to Jogo's for obvious reasons. From the beginning Naobito felt the cursed energy of Dagon's dimension and was surprised only by the invocation. So if Naobito says that a specific character is on a higher and completely different level compared to Dagon, then he scales up from the pocket dimension

Can you reference them all so we can take a look? I only recall a comparision from one volume extra.

I'll look for some later. But there is also the option of using the Jujutsu scale. Dagon able to fight Naobito, Maki and Nanami simultaneously. Hanami almost loses in a fight against Todo and Itadori, then it is considerable that Dagon True Form is stronger than Hanami. So if a anyone is strongest than the Dagon is strongest than the Hanami

The volume extra indeed states that Hanami is super tough compared to Jogo. Not that he is 'sometimes tough' compared to Jogo. If Jogo took some of the punishment Hanami tanked, he'd die instantly.

I know. But again, if we do this the scale will become a clutter and contradictory, and all of this can be solved simply by adding a "At most" in the profile. The wiki make the same thing in the Kimetsu

It doesn't make sense because scaling to Domain creates inconsistencies, and you are trying to create a band-aid by giving Hanami inconsistent scaling. If we don't scale to Domains everything should make sense.

Actually If you consider that Hanami has a higher durability than Jogo in every time you will destroy the scale, not me