Jujutsu Kaisen Hax/Ability & AP Upgrade Thread Pt. 3

[Dr._whiteee]

Hello, I am making this thread to add some more abilities to the Jujutsu Kasien verse. This thread is an extension of my last ability upgrade thread found here. I will not be addressing speed as I planned to earlier in the year, as the topic has gotten more controversial since then and will likely require its own thread. Without further ado, let's begin.

That is all, really. I planned for stuff, but others have cooked up some calcs, so I will not be addressing that scaling here.

Hax/Ability Addition
Recently, I made a JJK Ontology thread that discussed the nature of the reality of the verse and its deep connection with Buddhist ontology. This thread will expand upon my last thread and also add some new abilities to the verse. I will be linking the scans to short explanations here, but full context can be found within the blog. The following additions are proposed:

Barriers
Void Manipulation - The fundamental nature of the JJK universe is emptiness. Cursed energy and existence flicker darkly in the chaos, and we can see the same is true of the core of cursed energy, innate domains/souls, etc. Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" and calculations to manipulate this void and produce territories of their own. Advanced barrier users can even utilize Sunyata barriers to reality warp and base existence on abstract concepts. This mechanic also applies to Domain amplification, which uses this emptiness aspect to capture opponent techniques, thus neutralizing them. This should also extend to the domains of Sukuna and Kenjaku, given their ability to cast their special barrierless domains onto reality itself. As discussed in the blog, this void is a layer deeper than the type 2 info comprising existence, which itself is deeper than the spiritual/mental/physical split.

A more in depth breakdown can be found here

Reality Warping - Kenjaku and Sukuna currently have this for type 1 domains, but Kenjaku and Tengen should also have this application added to their profile due to their barrier skill.
Vector Manipulation/Info analysis - Barrier users are responsible for accounting for the vector parameters of their territories and certain users can also directly control the coordinates of their domain. Advanced users can even flip their barriers' internal/external conditions and range. Additionally, all information inside of a barrier is privy to the user, with the exception being heavenly restriction users such as Maki and Toji.
Subjective Reality/Concept Manipulation type 3 - Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" as the base for their barrier construction. Aspects of the domain are seen as symbolic even when manifested into reality. An advanced user such as Tengen, was able to separate their consciousness from merging with the universe via barriers.
Limited Time Manipulation - Miyo's simple domain was able to alter the flow of time within his domain by disavowing any binding conditions within his domain.
Time Manipulation/Sealing/Power Nullification - The Prison Realm boundary is a barrier technique which nullifies its targets powers before sealing them in a dimension cut off from the regular flow of time.
Absorption - Domain amplification absorbs enemy cursed techniques into its empty space.

Cursed Energy
Non-Physical Interaction - Concepts (type 2) and Void (cursed energy drives even the form of humanity from possibility and exists between mind and matter).
Mental Manipulation - Prolonged exposure to cursed energy can erode the mind [2]
Ressurection - Cursed energy can resurrect souls and egos into new forms until they are exorcised, or their curse is released.
Empowerment - While negative emotions largely power curses and cursed energy, curses and humans can also be empowered by the collective beliefs of humans such as with the folk god Nanami fought and Sukuna himself in his prime. This effect can also be used through conduits such as talismans (which can be used by non-sorcerors).
Sealing - Buddhist Sutras are capable of sealing away great evil. Additionally, sorcerers can empower themselves through heavenly restriction (as Kokichi did) and being vow (as Hakari did vs Kashimo).


Cursed Techniques
Concept Manipulation (types 2 and 3) - Cursed techniques work by sentient beings utilizing a "target concept" which can act as the basis for the technique itself and the actual target of the technique. Mahito (with his ability to see the soul) mentions humans being dominated by these concepts which cause metabolic configurations in the soul and then body. Sukuna utilized this mechanic of Jujutsu to bypass Gojo's Infinity after learning from Mahoraga, no longer manifesting slashes at where he thought Gojo was, but instead changing his techniques target concept to existence itself, in order to encapsulate Gojo in "that world" and bypass infinity. Type 2 users currently include Gojo's Satoru for bringing the concept of Infinity into reality and extending to mathematic abstracts and control over the concept/scale of distance [2] Yuki for breaking a conceptual framework with strength, bypassing conceptual defenses, and ignoring her own concept being targeted, Yorozu for construction of a conceptual perfect sphere, and Sukuna/Mahoraga for being able to target the concept of existence in order to bypass infinity. Kenjaku's Ganesha cursed spirit and Anti-Gravity technique could potentially qualify. All other cursed techniques fall under Concept manipulation type 3 unless meeting the criteria.

Cursed Spirits
Aura, (Grade 2 and up) responsible for - Madness, Manipulation, Empathic manipulation, and Perception manipulation - When fighting a strong grade 2 curse, both Kairi and Mai note the effects of the cursed spirit's aura to make them tremble, lose spirit, and become frightened. This aura is mentioned as capable of making normal people into a nightmarish state. This aura is described as foul and scorching.

Sorceror Resistances
Madness Manipulation/Empathic Manipulation - Sorcerors can resist the aura of sufficiently strong curses which can drive opponents into a frightened and nightmarish state.
Mind Manipulation - Via willpower, Nobara was able to resist charming/compulsion effects from a cursed word user who had amplified his CT via talismans and an improvised domain.

This next section will address character specific additions not yet addressed by the above content

Kenjaku
Dimensional Travel/Dream Manipulation - Kenjaku was capable of contacting regular humans in their dreams and escorting through a realm stated to sit between "dream and reality" to a different physical place in reality.
Gravity Manipulation - Through his CT Anti-gravity and its reversal, Kenjaku can utilize gravity like effects to crush his opponents, impede opponent attacks, and even save himself from the ground zero effects of a blackhole.
Immortality (type 6) - Kenjaku is capable of passing on his consciousness by brain hopping into new vessels.

Tengen
Immortality (types 1, & 4) - Tengen achieved the feat of becoming one with the universe. Her physical incarnations are a result of her rewriting the physical information of his vessels and separating her ego from the universe utilizing barrier jutsu.

Power Nullification - Tengen was able to nullify the blackhole created by Yuki (with her help) to ensure Yuki's blackhole didn't spread beyond the Sunyata barrier.

Mahoraga
Concept Manipulation (type 2) - Mahoraga was able to nullify Gojo's infinity, by both changing its essence and by targeting all of existence to reach Gojo.
Information Manipulation (type 2)/ Informational analysis - Mahoraga adapts to the fundamental information presented to him via attacks or exposure, this in turn allows him to analyze the information and adapt his own essence or capabilities to resist, become immune to, or counter whatever he has codified.

Yuki
Blackhole Creation - As a last resort, Yuki can make her mass so dense that she causes the creation of a blackhole. Yuki was also able to utilize her technique to contribute to neutralizing the very same blackhole.

Maki/Toji Additions
Resistance to Possession - Thanks to his heavenly restricted body Toji was able to overwrite the soul information of Ogami's grandson after she summoned only his body information for her grandson's soul to inhabit. This should also extend to Megumi (though to a much lesser extent obviously) who was able to resist Sukuna's attempts at hurting his allies, and whose soul was not completely demolished by Sukuna's Kodoku bath.
Resistance to Information analysis - Heavenly restricted persons cannot be targeted by domains that require such.
Information Analysis - Enlightened heavenly restriction users are able to see the "facets" or "information" of existence. So much so that the categorical distinctions between stimuli types stop existing, and users are able to extend their sensory range vastly beyond their bodies' natural range and sense through their environment, effectively "seeing the souls of inanimate objects". Gojo and Sukuna are also heavily implied to have reached this state via enlightenment after grasping the core of cursed energy.


Before I end, I wanted to touch upon the canonity of the novels and give a look into how they are made. Let's start by looking at our definitions of canon

Spoiler

The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. Few other exceptions are also possible and should be noted on the verse page.

So for most manga series, that means the original manga is canonical, while the anime is not (since the anime is simply an adaptation of the manga made by others). Databooks are considered secondary canon since scans tend to contradict them. It should be noted that this is often evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material.

A few things to note here. While the original author/creator is given precedence, this is not at expense of the copyright holder of a work. This is especially important when discussing Japanese copyright law, where legally speaking, as per Article 15-1 of Japan's copyright law system, when a work is developed by an employee of a corporation, the authorship of the product is to be attributed to the corporation at large, which here would obviously be Jump.

Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Research and Information Center CRIC

For a work (except a work of computer programming) that an em-ployee of a corporation or other employers (hereinafter in this Article such a corpora-tion or other employers are referred to as a "corporation, etc.") makes in the course of duty at the initiative of the corporation, etc., and that the corporation, etc. makes public as a work of its own authorship, the author is the corporation, etc., so long as it is not stipulated otherwise in a contract, in employment rules, or elsewhere at the time the work is made.

Given this and the explicit verbiage of own standards clearly highlighting that copyright holders also hold priority given primary canon, any works consented upon by both parties as official works of JJK, should at bare minimum, be considered secondary canon. This is evident by the explicit qualifier of tertiary canon being that

The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material.

Materials overseen by copyright holds of Jump and Gege, would not be classified by teriary canon or non-canon.

This is important because Gege plays a large role in the oversight in not only the anime, but also the novels which I will touch on here and highlight an interview with the JJK manga editor (Katayama) and JJK novel editor (Nakamoto) where they explain the supervision process in an interview. I have cut to the most important parts

Katayama : Both Mr. Akutami and I wanted to know what kind of writers write and how they write. So Mr. Nakamoto suggested that instead of looking at the completed manuscript straight away, we would have Mr. Kitakuni write the short story and then make a decision.
Sora : I see.
Katayama : My impression from that time was that (Mr. Kitakuni) had a good grasp of the characters and that the dialogue was done well. I thought, `Ah, that's amazing. You're really reading Jujutsu Kaisen'' and `You're making the characters move.''

Katayama : As the person in charge of the original work, I supervise the novel, but the main thing is to check whether it is different from the original work. For example, when it comes to interactions between characters, I think the most important thing is that if this character says this, there is no sense of discomfort in knowing that this character will respond in this way. I think that ultimately it has to do with the character's behavioral principles. There's a saying in "HUNTER x HUNTER" that says, "If you want to know a person, find out what makes them angry." I think that can be applied to the behavioral principles of most characters. I think this is a very easy to understand example.
From that perspective, when I checked to see if I could see the characters' values, I thought that Mr. Kitakuni understood that well.

Of course, Mr. Akutami Gege is also supervising.​

Sora : It was said that the author of the original work, Gemo Akutami, originally read the novel, but did he supervise the novel version?
Of course, Mr. Katayama　also looks at the manuscript, and I think the main thing he's looking at is, ``Will the character say those lines?'' However, there are few points. They also focused on checking the settings to ensure that they were unable to do this due to their abilities.
Nakamoto : Yes. Depending on the work, I may have to revise it quite carefully, but I think it's rare for the two Jujutsu Kaisen novels.
Katayama : The process is that I first check the areas that I'm concerned about, and Professor Akutami answers them or suggests alternatives.
Nakamoto : At the plot stage, Mr. Kitakuni provided ideas for about twice as many short stories as were published. So, each volume will have about 10 books. After they give me their ideas, I give them my opinion on how it would be interesting to do something like this, and once I've come up with something, I submit it to the original author. If the person in charge of the original work checks it and there are no problems, Mr. Akutami will ultimately choose which ideas he can write.

It is very evident that Gege his heavily involved with these and that they qualify for secondary canon status.

Translations

Spoiler

Prison Realm scan full translation


Sukuna Finger Scan full translation


Ogami Necromancy Technique Translation

Spoiler

Necromancy Technique Welcoming the information of the body and soul of the deceased into a new vessel. Due to the fear of resistance and loss of control, Aunt Ogami is unloading "only physical information". Baba style. A part of the body of the person being unloaded is required to use this spell. Also, there is a risk that the caster will be defenseless until the spell is activated. The degree of reproducibility is perfect, and the techniques used during life can be used without restrictions. Falling to the soul KI Jutsu ↑Because it is defenseless until the spell is activated, it is essential to have someone who protects the caster with . Jitsushiki Baba Zenintoji Ogami Baba sends a spirit to her grandson only about In Jingji's physical information. Reproduced the superhuman physical ability by divine curse.

Talismans translation

Spoiler

TALISMANS (呪符 - jufu) Tags that have curse energy channeled in them, and have great utility in their usage. A talisman is a note filled with curse energy or a curse technique beforehand, and can have various effects. There are various ways to use it such as "stick it on the target" or "channel cursed energy into it". And there are a great variety of uses such as summoning shikigami or activating easy barrier techniques, or even sealing or supervising powerful cursed items. It has such great utility, that as long as cursed energy is channeled into it, even non-sorcerers can provide assistance with them. — Panel caption: Low ranked sorcerers using it to summon shikigami. — Panel caption: Even the Kyoto Goodwill Event used talismans.

Sealing Sutra Translation

Spoiler

SEALS Using talismans to control curses. Sealing is an alternative for containing powerful curses that can't be exorcized. Usually, a talisman infused with cursed energy is used, but the seal weakens with the passage of time and the object starts to attract curses in order to feed off of them. — Panel caption: Ryomen Sukuna's finger seems to have been sealed using the secret buddhist sutra "Method for Eliminating Enemies (摧魔怨敵法)", also known as "The Setting in Motion of the Wheel of the Dharma" or "Promulgation of the Law (転法輪法)".

Gojo Manga Infinity Explanation Translation


Infinity is everywhere by nature. My sorcery just brings it into reality.


JJK Volume 0: Gojo Infinity Explanation Translation

Spoiler

Mukagen Jujutsu "Unlimited Curse". Miguel had been given an explanation by Natsuyu in advance. It is literally the art of making the concept of infinity a reality. It is an inherited technique that makes Gojo Satoru the strongest. Precisely because it possesses destructive power beyond standards, controlling it requires careful magical power manipulation that interferes at the atomic level. Calculations that dominate time and space are a burden that can burn out your brain if handled properly.

Gojo Controls The Scale of Distance Translation (Jump Giga)


T: I see. Let’s establish the assumption for Minkowski metric we talked earlier, it needs closer scrutiny. I will summarize it a bit, So Gojo is a technique user who can tamper with the scale of local distance after all. Actually the space that Gojo deals with looks like it can tolerate special inner product. H: With that you can define imaginary numbers-like concept using Minkowski metric.

Staff Votes:
Agree: DarkGrath, DarkDragonMedeus (agreed to void manip)
Disagree w/ Void Manip: Deagonx, Maverick_0_X, Dereck03
Disagree with Concept Manip Type 3 for CT: Dereck03

 

[Grand_Astartes]

I disagree with some things but I'll type it out in the edit

 

[Nierre]

gah damn.

ill follow

 

[LordGinSama]

Spent the last 3 mins reading this thread carefully, outside some of the RAW's being translations I agree 100%

 

[Deceived3596]

Following for the fire works and KT's eternal hatred for JJK scalers to grow even further.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Spent the last 3 mins reading this thread carefully, outside some of the RAW's being translations I agree 100%

Thank you for bringing this up early on, translations that were posted as RAWS can be found at the end of the Ontology Thread linked at the beginning of the OP. I didn't wanna bog the thread with more text and that thread should be a precursory read for this one. Thanks for reading.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Shouldn't Kashimo's CT scale to "At most Island level"? He can took several hits from Prime Sukuna

Not so sure about dimensional manipulation seeing we would probabily need some canon statement about spatial dimensionality

Rest is fine imo. Good job.

I also think that a lot of characters need supernatural willpower, such as Yuki, who could use a final attack while cut in half and even then she was capable to use her will to hold the black hole

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Hello, I am making this thread to add some more abilities to the Jujutsu Kasien verse. This thread is an extension of my last ability upgrade thread found here. In addition, I will also be attempting to upgrade the God Tier's AP for the verse. I will not be addressing speed as I planned to earlier in the year, as the topic has gotten more controversial since then and will likely require its own thread. Without further ado, let's begin.

God Tier AP
I would like to start first with AP. The new scaling for God tiers would be Island level based on the result of the calc linked here. The natural end utilization was okay'd in this thread. Characters who scale to the value are as follows:


That is all, really. I planned for stuff, but others have cooked up some calcs, so I will not be addressing that scaling here.

Hax/Ability Addition
Recently, I made a JJK Ontology thread that discussed the nature of the reality of the verse and its deep connection with Buddhist ontology. This thread will expand upon my last thread and also add some new abilities to the verse. I will be linking the scans to short explanations here, but full context can be found within the blog. The following additions are proposed:

Barriers
Void Manipulation - The fundamental nature of the JJK universe is emptiness. Cursed energy and existence flicker darkly in the chaos, and we can see the same is true of the core of cursed energy, innate domains/souls, etc. Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" and calculations to manipulate this void and produce territories of their own. Advanced barrier users can even utilize Sunyata barriers to reality warp and base existence on abstract concepts. This mechanic also applies to Domain amplification, which uses this emptiness aspect to capture opponent techniques, thus neutralizing them. This should also extend to the domains of Sukuna and Kenjaku, given their ability to cast their special barrierless domains onto reality itself. As discussed in the blog, this void is a layer deeper than the type 2 info comprising existence, which itself is deeper than the spiritual/mental/physical split.
Reality Warping - Kenjaku and Sukuna currently have this for type 1 domains, but Kenjaku and Tengen should also have this application added to their profile due to their barrier skill.
Vector Manipulation/Info analysis - Barrier users are responsible for accounting for the vector parameters of their territories and certain users can also directly control the coordinates of their domain. Advanced users can even flip their barriers' internal/external conditions and range. Additionally, all information inside of a barrier is privy to the user, with the exception being heavenly restriction users such as Maki and Toji.
Subjective Reality/Concept Manipulation type 3 - Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" as the base for their barrier construction. Aspects of the domain are seen as symbolic even when manifested into reality. An advanced user such as Tengen, was able to separate their consciousness from merging with the universe via barriers.
Limited Time Manipulation - Miyo's simple domain was able to alter the flow of time within his domain by disavowing any binding conditions within his domain.
Time Manipulation/Sealing/Power Nullification - The Prison Realm boundary is a barrier technique which nullifies its targets powers before sealing them in a dimension cut off from the regular flow of time.
Absorption - Domain amplification absorbs enemy cursed techniques into its empty space.

Cursed Energy
Non-Physical Interaction - Concepts (type 2) and Void (cursed energy drives even the form of humanity from possibility and exists between mind and matter).
Mental Manipulation - Prolonged exposure to cursed energy can erode the mind [2]
Ressurection - Cursed energy can resurrect souls and egos into new forms until they are exorcised, or their curse is released.
Empowerment - While negative emotions largely power curses and cursed energy, curses and humans can also be empowered by the collective beliefs of humans such as with the folk god Nanami fought and Sukuna himself in his prime. This effect can also be used through conduits such as talismans (which can be used by non-sorcerors).
Sealing - Buddhist Sutras are capable of sealing away great evil. Additionally, sorcerers can empower themselves through heavenly restriction (as Kokichi did) and being vow (as Hakari did vs Kashimo).
Non-Duality - Cursed energy arises from the inherent emptiness of reality and curses are described as between the physical and mental (see blog for reference).

Cursed Techniques
Concept Manipulation (types 2 and 3) - Cursed techniques work by sentient beings utilizing a "target concept" which can act as the basis for the technique itself and the actual target of the technique. Mahito (with his ability to see the soul) mentions humans being dominated by these concepts which cause metabolic configurations in the soul and then body. Sukuna utilized this mechanic of Jujutsu to bypass Gojo's Infinity after learning from Mahoraga, no longer manifesting slashes at where he thought Gojo was, but instead changing his techniques target concept to existence itself, in order to encapsulate Gojo in "that world" and bypass infinity. Type 2 users currently include Gojo's Satoru for bringing the concept of Infinity into reality and extending to mathematic abstracts and control over the concept/scale of distance [2] Yuki for breaking a conceptual framework with strength, bypassing conceptual defenses, and ignoring her own concept being targeted, Yorozu for construction of a conceptual perfect sphere, and Sukuna/Mahoraga for being able to target the concept of existence in order to bypass infinity. Kenjaku's Ganesha cursed spirit and Anti-Gravity technique could potentially qualify. All other cursed techniques fall under Concept manipulation type 3 unless meeting the criteria.

Cursed Spirits
Aura, (Grade 2 and up) responsible for - Madness, Manipulation, Empathic manipulation, and Perception manipulation - When fighting a strong grade 2 curse, both Kairi and Mai note the effects of the cursed spirit's aura to make them tremble, lose spirit, and become frightened. This aura is mentioned as capable of making normal people into a nightmarish state. This aura is described as foul and scorching.

Sorceror Resistances
Madness Manipulation/Empathic Manipulation - Sorcerors can resist the aura of sufficiently strong curses which can drive opponents into a frightened and nightmarish state.
Mind Manipulation - Via willpower, Nobara was able to resist charming/compulsion effects from a cursed word user who had amplified his CT via talismans and an improvised domain.

This next section will address character specific additions not yet addressed by the above content

Kenjaku
Dimensional manipulation/Dream Manipulation - Kenjaku was capable of contacting regular humans in their dreams and escorting through a realm stated to sit between "dream and reality" to a different physical place in reality.
Gravity Manipulation - Through his CT Anti-gravity and its reversal, Kenjaku can utilize gravity like effects to crush his opponents, impede opponent attacks, and even save himself from the ground zero effects of a blackhole.
Immortality (type 6) - Kenjaku is capable of passing on his consciousness by brain hopping into new vessels.

Tengen
Immortality (types 1, 4, & 9) - Tengen achieved the feat of becoming one with the universe. Her physical incarnations are a result of her rewriting the physical information of his vessels and separating her ego from the universe utilizing barrier jutsu.
Higher Dimensional Existence - Kenjaku labeled Tengen as " a higher being" and needed to take her body in order to move forward with his plans of merging all humans and evolving humanity and curses.
Power Nullification - Tengen was able to nullify the blackhole created by Yuki (with her help) to ensure Yuki's blackhole didn't spread beyond the Sunyata barrier.

Mahoraga
Causality Manipulation - Mahoraga's Dharma wheel is associated with causality and the function by which Mahoraga adapts. Mahoraga's physical adaption should be noted capable of reaching High 3-A levels depending on how complete the adaptation due to its ability to break through the infinite pressure of the perfect sphere.
Concept Manipulation (type 2) - Mahoraga was able to nullify Gojo's infinity, by both changing its essence and by targeting all of existence to reach Gojo.
Information Manipulation (type 2)/ Informational analysis - Mahoraga adapts to the fundamental information presented to him via attacks or exposure, this in turn allows him to analyze the information and adapt his own essence or capabilities to resist, become immune to, or counter whatever he has codified.

Yuki
Blackhole Creation - As a last resort, Yuki can make her mass so dense that she causes the creation of a blackhole. Yuki was also able to utilize her technique to contribute to neutralizing the very same blackhole.

Maki/Toji Additions
Resistance to Possession - Thanks to his heavenly restricted body Toji was able to overwrite the soul information of Ogami's grandson after she summoned only his body information for her grandson's soul to inhabit. This should also extend to Megumi (though to a much lesser extent obviously) who was able to resist Sukuna's attempts at hurting his allies, and whose soul was not completely demolished by Sukuna's Kodoku bath.
Resistance to Information analysis - Heavenly restricted persons cannot be targeted by domains that require such.
Information Analysis - Enlightened heavenly restriction users are able to see the "facets" or "information" of existence. So much so that the categorical distinctions between stimuli types stop existing, and users are able to extend their sensory range vastly beyond their bodies' natural range and sense through their environment, effectively "seeing the souls of inanimate objects". Gojo and Sukuna are also heavily implied to have reached this state via enlightenment after grasping the core of cursed energy.


Before I end, I wanted to touch upon the canonity of the novels and give a look into how they are made. Let's start by looking at our definitions of canon

Spoiler

A few things to note here. While the original author/creator is given precedence, this is not at expense of the copyright holder of a work. This is especially important when discussing Japanese copyright law, where legally speaking, as per Article 15-1 of Japan's copyright law system, when a work is developed by an employee of a corporation, the authorship of the product is to be attributed to the corporation at large, which here would obviously be Jump.

Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Research and Information Center CRIC


Given this and the explicit verbiage of own standards clearly highlighting that copyright holders also hold priority given primary canon, any works consented upon by both parties as official works of JJK, should at bare minimum, be considered secondary canon. This is evident by the explicit qualifier of tertiary canon being that

Materials overseen by copyright holds of Jump and Gege, would not be classified by teriary canon or non-canon.

This is important because Gege plays a large role in the oversight in not only the anime, but also the novels which I will touch on here and highlight an interview with the JJK manga editor (Katayama) and JJK novel editor (Nakamoto) where they explain the supervision process in an interview. I have cut to the most important parts




It is very evident that Gege his heavily involved with these and that they qualify for secondary canon status.

I agree with everything so far, but the higher dimensional part is something I disagree with, as I think it lacks the necessary context to indicate a higher dimensionality existence. Though I'd ultimately choose to be neutral about that part. Otherwise, I agree with everything so far.
You did a great job.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Shouldn't Kashimo's CT scale to "At most Island level"? He can took several hits from Prime Sukuna

Not so sure about dimensional manipulation seeing we would probabily need some canon statement about spatial dimensionality

Rest is fine imo. Good job.

I also think that a lot of characters need supernatural willpower, such as Yuki, who could use a final attack while cut in half and even then she was capable to use her will to hold the black hole

Ngl, I forgot bout bro, but yeah his EM waves and lightning resistance should scale at the least.

I would say it qualified because Kenjaku brought them from the dream dimension to a specified place in reality by walking a few steps. Homegirl was sleeping in her crib and woke up from her dream outside the barrier.

Thanks for reading.

I agree with everything so far, but the higher dimensional part is something I disagree with, as I think it lacks the necessary context to indicate a higher dimensionality existence. Though I'd ultimately choose to be neutral about that part. Otherwise, I agree with everything so far.
You did a great job.

Yeah, tbh I am leaning toward it given the context of Tengen achieving his state through buddhism, but I am not like 100% married to that particular addition and wouldn't mind waiting for further context on it.

 

[LordGinSama]

Shouldn't Kashimo's CT scale to "At most Island level"? He can took several hits from Prime Sukuna

For durability, definitely. As for AP I'm not sure, as most of his CT revolves around durability negation.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Well, he can somewhat hold Sukuna in a mano a mano

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Hello, I am making this thread to add some more abilities to the Jujutsu Kasien verse. This thread is an extension of my last ability upgrade thread found here. In addition, I will also be attempting to upgrade the God Tier's AP for the verse. I will not be addressing speed as I planned to earlier in the year, as the topic has gotten more controversial since then and will likely require its own thread. Without further ado, let's begin.

God Tier AP
I would like to start first with AP. The new scaling for God tiers would be Island level based on the result of the calc linked here. The natural end utilization was okay'd in this thread. Characters who scale to the value are as follows:


That is all, really. I planned for stuff, but others have cooked up some calcs, so I will not be addressing that scaling here.

Hax/Ability Addition
Recently, I made a JJK Ontology thread that discussed the nature of the reality of the verse and its deep connection with Buddhist ontology. This thread will expand upon my last thread and also add some new abilities to the verse. I will be linking the scans to short explanations here, but full context can be found within the blog. The following additions are proposed:

Barriers
Void Manipulation - The fundamental nature of the JJK universe is emptiness. Cursed energy and existence flicker darkly in the chaos, and we can see the same is true of the core of cursed energy, innate domains/souls, etc. Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" and calculations to manipulate this void and produce territories of their own. Advanced barrier users can even utilize Sunyata barriers to reality warp and base existence on abstract concepts. This mechanic also applies to Domain amplification, which uses this emptiness aspect to capture opponent techniques, thus neutralizing them. This should also extend to the domains of Sukuna and Kenjaku, given their ability to cast their special barrierless domains onto reality itself. As discussed in the blog, this void is a layer deeper than the type 2 info comprising existence, which itself is deeper than the spiritual/mental/physical split.
Reality Warping - Kenjaku and Sukuna currently have this for type 1 domains, but Kenjaku and Tengen should also have this application added to their profile due to their barrier skill.
Vector Manipulation/Info analysis - Barrier users are responsible for accounting for the vector parameters of their territories and certain users can also directly control the coordinates of their domain. Advanced users can even flip their barriers' internal/external conditions and range. Additionally, all information inside of a barrier is privy to the user, with the exception being heavenly restriction users such as Maki and Toji.
Subjective Reality/Concept Manipulation type 3 - Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" as the base for their barrier construction. Aspects of the domain are seen as symbolic even when manifested into reality. An advanced user such as Tengen, was able to separate their consciousness from merging with the universe via barriers.
Limited Time Manipulation - Miyo's simple domain was able to alter the flow of time within his domain by disavowing any binding conditions within his domain.
Time Manipulation/Sealing/Power Nullification - The Prison Realm boundary is a barrier technique which nullifies its targets powers before sealing them in a dimension cut off from the regular flow of time.
Absorption - Domain amplification absorbs enemy cursed techniques into its empty space.

Cursed Energy
Non-Physical Interaction - Concepts (type 2) and Void (cursed energy drives even the form of humanity from possibility and exists between mind and matter).
Mental Manipulation - Prolonged exposure to cursed energy can erode the mind [2]
Ressurection - Cursed energy can resurrect souls and egos into new forms until they are exorcised, or their curse is released.
Empowerment - While negative emotions largely power curses and cursed energy, curses and humans can also be empowered by the collective beliefs of humans such as with the folk god Nanami fought and Sukuna himself in his prime. This effect can also be used through conduits such as talismans (which can be used by non-sorcerors).
Sealing - Buddhist Sutras are capable of sealing away great evil. Additionally, sorcerers can empower themselves through heavenly restriction (as Kokichi did) and being vow (as Hakari did vs Kashimo).
Non-Duality - Cursed energy arises from the inherent emptiness of reality and curses are described as between the physical and mental (see blog for reference).

Cursed Techniques
Concept Manipulation (types 2 and 3) - Cursed techniques work by sentient beings utilizing a "target concept" which can act as the basis for the technique itself and the actual target of the technique. Mahito (with his ability to see the soul) mentions humans being dominated by these concepts which cause metabolic configurations in the soul and then body. Sukuna utilized this mechanic of Jujutsu to bypass Gojo's Infinity after learning from Mahoraga, no longer manifesting slashes at where he thought Gojo was, but instead changing his techniques target concept to existence itself, in order to encapsulate Gojo in "that world" and bypass infinity. Type 2 users currently include Gojo's Satoru for bringing the concept of Infinity into reality and extending to mathematic abstracts and control over the concept/scale of distance [2] Yuki for breaking a conceptual framework with strength, bypassing conceptual defenses, and ignoring her own concept being targeted, Yorozu for construction of a conceptual perfect sphere, and Sukuna/Mahoraga for being able to target the concept of existence in order to bypass infinity. Kenjaku's Ganesha cursed spirit and Anti-Gravity technique could potentially qualify. All other cursed techniques fall under Concept manipulation type 3 unless meeting the criteria.

Cursed Spirits
Aura, (Grade 2 and up) responsible for - Madness, Manipulation, Empathic manipulation, and Perception manipulation - When fighting a strong grade 2 curse, both Kairi and Mai note the effects of the cursed spirit's aura to make them tremble, lose spirit, and become frightened. This aura is mentioned as capable of making normal people into a nightmarish state. This aura is described as foul and scorching.

Sorceror Resistances
Madness Manipulation/Empathic Manipulation - Sorcerors can resist the aura of sufficiently strong curses which can drive opponents into a frightened and nightmarish state.
Mind Manipulation - Via willpower, Nobara was able to resist charming/compulsion effects from a cursed word user who had amplified his CT via talismans and an improvised domain.

This next section will address character specific additions not yet addressed by the above content

Kenjaku
Dimensional manipulation/Dream Manipulation - Kenjaku was capable of contacting regular humans in their dreams and escorting through a realm stated to sit between "dream and reality" to a different physical place in reality.
Gravity Manipulation - Through his CT Anti-gravity and its reversal, Kenjaku can utilize gravity like effects to crush his opponents, impede opponent attacks, and even save himself from the ground zero effects of a blackhole.
Immortality (type 6) - Kenjaku is capable of passing on his consciousness by brain hopping into new vessels.

Tengen
Immortality (types 1, 4, & 9) - Tengen achieved the feat of becoming one with the universe. Her physical incarnations are a result of her rewriting the physical information of his vessels and separating her ego from the universe utilizing barrier jutsu.
Higher Dimensional Existence - Kenjaku labeled Tengen as " a higher being" and needed to take her body in order to move forward with his plans of merging all humans and evolving humanity and curses.
Power Nullification - Tengen was able to nullify the blackhole created by Yuki (with her help) to ensure Yuki's blackhole didn't spread beyond the Sunyata barrier.

Mahoraga
Causality Manipulation - Mahoraga's Dharma wheel is associated with causality and the function by which Mahoraga adapts. Mahoraga's physical adaption should be noted capable of reaching High 3-A levels depending on how complete the adaptation due to its ability to break through the infinite pressure of the perfect sphere.
Concept Manipulation (type 2) - Mahoraga was able to nullify Gojo's infinity, by both changing its essence and by targeting all of existence to reach Gojo.
Information Manipulation (type 2)/ Informational analysis - Mahoraga adapts to the fundamental information presented to him via attacks or exposure, this in turn allows him to analyze the information and adapt his own essence or capabilities to resist, become immune to, or counter whatever he has codified.

Yuki
Blackhole Creation - As a last resort, Yuki can make her mass so dense that she causes the creation of a blackhole. Yuki was also able to utilize her technique to contribute to neutralizing the very same blackhole.

Maki/Toji Additions
Resistance to Possession - Thanks to his heavenly restricted body Toji was able to overwrite the soul information of Ogami's grandson after she summoned only his body information for her grandson's soul to inhabit. This should also extend to Megumi (though to a much lesser extent obviously) who was able to resist Sukuna's attempts at hurting his allies, and whose soul was not completely demolished by Sukuna's Kodoku bath.
Resistance to Information analysis - Heavenly restricted persons cannot be targeted by domains that require such.
Information Analysis - Enlightened heavenly restriction users are able to see the "facets" or "information" of existence. So much so that the categorical distinctions between stimuli types stop existing, and users are able to extend their sensory range vastly beyond their bodies' natural range and sense through their environment, effectively "seeing the souls of inanimate objects". Gojo and Sukuna are also heavily implied to have reached this state via enlightenment after grasping the core of cursed energy.


Before I end, I wanted to touch upon the canonity of the novels and give a look into how they are made. Let's start by looking at our definitions of canon

Spoiler

A few things to note here. While the original author/creator is given precedence, this is not at expense of the copyright holder of a work. This is especially important when discussing Japanese copyright law, where legally speaking, as per Article 15-1 of Japan's copyright law system, when a work is developed by an employee of a corporation, the authorship of the product is to be attributed to the corporation at large, which here would obviously be Jump.

Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Research and Information Center CRIC


Given this and the explicit verbiage of own standards clearly highlighting that copyright holders also hold priority given primary canon, any works consented upon by both parties as official works of JJK, should at bare minimum, be considered secondary canon. This is evident by the explicit qualifier of tertiary canon being that

Materials overseen by copyright holds of Jump and Gege, would not be classified by teriary canon or non-canon.

This is important because Gege plays a large role in the oversight in not only the anime, but also the novels which I will touch on here and highlight an interview with the JJK manga editor (Katayama) and JJK novel editor (Nakamoto) where they explain the supervision process in an interview. I have cut to the most important parts




It is very evident that Gege his heavily involved with these and that they qualify for secondary canon status.

Regarding the causality part, I think this proof would further suffice to prove this.

 

[LordGinSama]

Well, he can somewhat hold Sukuna in a mano a mano

This feat is fine for scaling then

 

[azontr]

Some of the justifications for more esoteric abilities in the OP seem quite vague tbh, but it seems like the scans were already accepted in a prior thread so I can agree with everything.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

As far as I know the 6-C value was never approved in the thread you linked above so I disagree with that part at least

 

[Maitreya12]

Ok…there’s a bunch of stuff here and some of it I either don’t understand how you came to the conclusion of or disagree with so I’ll just name the ones that popped out to me.

1) Causality Manipulation for Mahoraga: Why? What evidence is there that this is causality manipulation? The dharma wheel argument I don’t understand how it relates to that ability as it is described in the series.

2) Higher dimensional existence for Tengen: No. hard disagree, a lot more evidence is needed than just saying a person’s a “higher being” and whatnot, it’s a very strict standard on vs wiki.

3) Tengen being one with the universe: How do we know it’s “universe” instead of “planet” since the kanji for “world” can mean both more evidence is required to say the whole universe was fused with Tengen. And the context here seems more in line with “planet” rather than the whole universe.

Those were the stuff that immediately popped out to me, I’m sure there’s more, but for right now those I disagree with.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

As far as I know the 6-C value was never approved in the thread you linked above so I disagree with that part at least

It was, if anyone disagrees need to create a separate CRT

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Ok…there’s a bunch of stuff here and some of it I either don’t understand how you came to the conclusion of or disagree with so I’ll just name the ones that popped out to me.

1) Causality Manipulation for Mahoraga: Why? What evidence is there that this is causality manipulation? The dharma wheel argument I don’t understand how it relates to that ability as it is described in the series.

This was explained in the ontology thread, the Dharma wheel represents causality and phenomena. With cursed techniques being conceptual, it's form would correlate to what it is symbolic of.

The mechanics of adaption via the wheel also support this. You may have also notice the wheel was untouched by Sukuna's pulverizing Domain and vaporizing flame arrow, despite Mahoraga taking damage.

2) Higher dimensional existence for Tengen: No. hard disagree, a lot more evidence is needed than just saying a person’s a “higher being” and whatnot, it’s a very strict standard on vs wiki.

As said above, I am not 100% against this.

3) Tengen being one with the universe: How do we know it’s “universe” instead of “planet” since the kanji for “world” can mean both more evidence is required to say the whole universe was fused with Tengen. And the context here seems more in line with “planet” rather than the whole universe.

This was covered in the ontology thread. Becoming one with the planet wouldn't make sense with Tengen explicitly being the progenitor of the spread of Jujutsu and Japanese Buddhism, we know the "world" sukuna talks about was also existence, and not just Earth itself but space, the world, Existence, to drive home the scope of just how much Gojo's infinity covered.

Also context for the kanji is
According to Oxford Languages and 広辞林 (a Japanese encyclopedia) the term 世界 can also refer to the universe as a whole. To quote both sources:Oxford: All phenomena and things which exist. The universe. (存在する事物・現象の総体。宇宙。)広辞林: All phenomena and finite things. The universe. (すべての有限な事物や事象の全体。宇宙。)Additionally, the term is originally a borrowing from Buddhist cosmology, specifically the term "lokadhaatu," which refers to the universe, or the "world system." This is attested by multiple sources here on Kotobank (https://kotobank.jp/word/世界-546855) as follows:精選版 日本国語大辞典 (1st entry): A kanji translation of lokadhātu. 世 refers to the three states of temporal existence— the past, the present, and the future— and 界 refers to east, west, south, north, up, and down: the whole of time and space in which living things reside. The realm of mountains and rivers where people and creatures live. The present world. The Three Thousand Worlds which the Buddha enlightened.デジタル大辞泉 (7th entry): Translation of Sanskrit "lokadhātu." 世 refers to the three states of temporal existence— the past, the present, and the future— and 界 refers to east, west, south, north, up, and down. Buddhist term.a). The name of the four lands centered around Mt. Sumeru. Used as a unit to count the Three Thousand Worlds.b.) The realm ruled solely by the Buddha.c). The universe.世界大百科事典 第２版 (1st entry): Originally Buddhist terminology, refers to the space in which creatures live and are reborn. Translation of Sanskrit "lokadhātu." Loka means "space," and dhātu means "stratum." [...] The Sanskrit "loka" does not necessarily mean time, but its kanji translation 世 does.

Those were the stuff that immediately popped out to me, I’m sure there’s more, but for right now those I disagree with.

Take your time

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

It was, if anyone disagrees need to create a separate CRT

Reading through the thread no calc members came to an agreement that it was usable

A single thread moderator expressed that she agreed with it while none of the other members gave the ok

That's not how it works, you cant just apply it without agreement of a calc member and that is the case here

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Reading through the thread no calc members came to an agreement that it was usable

A single thread moderator expressed that she agreed with it while none of the other members gave the ok

That's not how it works, you cant just apply it without agreement of a calc member and that is the case here

Executor agreed, actually

 

[Thebannanaworkshop]

Agree with pretty much all, iffy on Causality manip for mahoraga,

disagree with Higher Dimensional Existence, Kinda vague and requires further evidence

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Reading through the thread no calc members came to an agreement that it was usable

A single thread moderator expressed that she agreed with it while none of the other members gave the ok

That's not how it works, you cant just apply it without agreement of a calc member and that is the case here

Executor said
"From what I know, if it's done down on the earth and directly affects the organization of the tectonic plates, it should be enough to assume the total energy IMO
Radiated waves, from what I know, is only if the effects were surface level only"

Myself and Powertoscale both provided arguments given the location of Gojo's feat, and how it would indeed effect the plates. At which point KT (the only mod actively arguing) dropped his contentions.

I also outlined why therefir's comment was incorrect, and that comment on the original blog was the only point of contention when considering whether the natural end was useable.

Gojo Calc Resolution/Earthquake Calcs

What’s the overall sentiment from CGM for this calc? Does anyone else have any further issues with it?

vsbattles.com

It was then looked over by the final mod, who still have time for contentions before closing the thread. Mind you the thread went on for 4 months with several mass staff tags.

 

[Testarossa002]

Higher Dimensional Existence - Kenjaku labeled Tengen as " a higher being" and needed to take her body in order to move forward with his plans of merging all humans and evolving humanity and curses.

No.

Simply stating that something is from a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis in relation to 3-dimensional entities or objects. Statements that something is "higher-dimensional" also need to be interpreted in context, as authors at times use the term figuratively.

Executor said
"From what I know, if it's done down on the earth and directly affects the organization of the tectonic plates, it should be enough to assume the total energy IMO
Radiated waves, from what I know, is only if the effects were surface level only"

Myself and Powertoscale both provided arguments given the location of Gojo's feat, and how it would indeed effect the plates. At which point KT (the only mod actively arguing) dropped his contentions.

I also outlined why therefir's comment was incorrect, and that comment on the original blog was the only point of contention when considering whether the natural end was useable.

Gojo Calc Resolution/Earthquake Calcs

What’s the overall sentiment from CGM for this calc? Does anyone else have any further issues with it?

vsbattles.com

It was then looked over by the final mod, who still have time for contentions before closing the thread. Mind you the thread went on for 4 months with several mass staff tags.

That's really not enough to deem a calc as "accepted".
Absence of input doesn't mean a thread has a go ahead if it doesn't meet the minimum requirements for such.

I'm fairly certain the contentions with the calc will be brought up here regardless.

 

[Maitreya12]

This was explained in the ontology thread, the Dharma wheel represents causality and phenomena. With cursed techniques being conceptual, it's form would correlate to what it is symbolic of.

The mechanics of adaption via the wheel also support this.

I don’t know if symbolically representing something is enough for it to grant the ability in the field in question and I don’t know how exactly the mechanics of the wheel being able to “process” attacks that it can then “adapt” to relates to causality manipulation however I’m not an expert on the ability so I will let more knowledgeable members on the ability speak on if it applies or not.

As said above, I am not 100% against this.

This was covered in the ontology thread. Becoming one with the planet wouldn't make sense with Tengen explicitly being the progenitor of the spread of Jujutsu and Japanese Buddhism, we know the "world" sukuna talks about was also existence, and not just Earth itself but space, the world, Existence, to drive home the scope of just how much Gojo's infinity covered.

Actually it kind of would make sense for the context of the statement. Buddhism spread throughout the world, not the universe, the people adopted the philosophical teachings of it. And Tengen mentions that “a hundred million people’s impurity would flood the world” so she’s definitely referring to just the “planet” in that part of the statement rather than the whole universe. I don’t think Sukuna’s statement supports this point either because that statement was made under a different context than the statement Tengen is making.

Take your time

Most of the other stuff I agree with such as dimensional/sleep manipulation on m for Kenjaku, conceptual manipulation for curses techniques, madness and empathetic manipulation and so forth.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Actually it kind of would make sense for the context of the statement. Buddhism spread throughout the world, not the universe, the people adopted the philosophical teachings of it. And Tengen mentions that “a hundred million people’s impurity would flood the world” so she’s definitely referring to just the “planet” in that part of the statement rather than the whole universe. I don’t think Sukuna’s statement supports this point either because that statement was made under a different context than the statement Tengen is making.

It wouldn't though. If Tengen reached enlightenment via Buddhism, that means he reached nirvana. One cannot reach Nirvana by becoming one with the Earth as the Earth is still stuck in Samsara. This is evident by the ability for curse users to come back as spirits or for souls to be cursed. By becoming one with the universe Tengen must dissolve his will and settle into nothingness, which is why it wouldn't scale to his incarnation.

I also showed you the kanji for world, so it is clearly not talking about Earth Imo.

The Sukuna context wouldn't be different. By becoming one with the world, it would mean everything. Gojo's infinity is not absolved from that, which Sukuna indicates by needing to target not only space (already > Earth), not only the world, but all of existence, to hit. The scope is well beyond Earth.

Like I said, the Ontology thread needs to be fully read to understand how the concepts relate.

 

[Maitreya12]

It wouldn't though. If Tengen reached enlightenment via Buddhism, that means he reached nirvana. One cannot reach Nirvana by becoming one with the Earth as the Earth is still stuck in Samsara. This is evident by the ability for curse users to come back as spirits or for souls to be cursed. By becoming one with the universe Tengen must dissolve his will and settle into nothingness, which is why it wouldn't scale to his incarnation.

None of this is stated in the series, you’re only assuming this is the case because of Buddhist inspirations. But inspiration alone doesn’t grant the same standards as religions here on the wiki, it needs to be actually supported and founded within the series itself. Saying Tengen reached enlightenment means nothing unless that enlightenment is stated and supported in the series itself to refer to becoming one with the universe when reaching Nirvana.

Like believe me dude. This is not how the standards on the wiki works, I know this because I’m one of the supporters for the God of Highschool and that series has way more direct inspiration to stories relating to Buddhism and you still needed these supporting evidences in the series for these exact same points you’re arguing for to be accepted.

I also showed you the kanji for world, so it is clearly not talking about Earth Imo.

Uh no, the quote you gave me says “can also refer” to the universe as a whole, not that the kanji exclusively does refer to universe and not earth. Just that it has a possibility to depending on the context.

The Sukuna context wouldn't be different. By becoming one with the world, it would mean everything. Gojo's infinity is not absolved from that, which Sukuna indicates by needing to target not only space (already > Earth), not only the world, but all of existence, to hit. The scope is well beyond Earth.

Yeah…in Sukuna’s case, but this doesn’t refer to Tengen. The contexts are different so you can’t use Sukuna’s statement in support of Tengen’s.

Like I said, the Ontology thread needs to be fully read to understand how the concepts relate.

I’m versed on these ideas of Buddhism and how inspiration from them can influence a verse, and I’m like telling you. This is not it, you’re gonna need way more evidence to argue for these extraordinary points.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

None of this is stated in the series, you’re only assuming this is the case because of Buddhist inspirations. But inspiration alone doesn’t grant the same standards as religions here on the wiki, it needs to be actually supported and founded within the series itself. Saying Tengen reached enlightenment means nothing unless that enlightenment is stated and supported in the series itself to refer to becoming one with the universe when reaching Nirvana.

Like believe me dude. This is not how the standards on the wiki works, I know this because I’m one of the supporters for the God of Highschool and that series has way more direct inspiration to stories relating to Buddhism and you still needed these supporting evidences in the series for these exact same points you’re arguing for to be accepted.

Uh no, the quote you gave me says “can also refer” to the universe as a whole, not that the kanji exclusively does refer to universe and not earth. Just that it has a possibility to depending on the context.

Yeah…in Sukuna’s case, but this doesn’t refer to Tengen. The contexts are different so you can’t use Sukuna’s statement in support of Tengen’s.

I’m versed on these ideas of Buddhism and how inspiration from them can influence a verse, and I’m like telling you. This is not it, you’re gonna need way more evidence to argue for these extraordinary points.

Sukuna's use of that kanji also exists in the raws of what Tengen says.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

None of this is stated in the series, you’re only assuming this is the case because of Buddhist inspirations

No I am not. If you read the thread, you would clearly see I outlined several instances of direct usage of Buddhist concepts. Tengen only learned how to use Jujutsu after mastering Buddhism and spreading both in Japan. Do you know what happened directly after this? The golden age of Jujutsu that bread Sukuna and the best sorcerers of all time. Angel's cult, is directly tied to the historical japanese Abe clan and their name is "Nirvana pacification squad" a non-deistic group that despises sorcerers transferring there consciousness through time and erasing others still living.

It doesn't get more blatant than that in addition to other stuff I outlined in the thread. You can't just say I'm pointing at inspiration when I made a whole thread about how these buddhist concepts exist in the manga proper.

. But inspiration alone doesn’t grant the same standards as religions here on the wiki, it needs to be actually supported and founded within the series itself.

Yes, I made a whole thread doing this.

Saying Tengen reached enlightenment means nothing unless that enlightenment is stated and supported in the series itself to refer to becoming one with the universe when reaching Nirvana.

It is? Tengen is literally a buddha, who spread japanese buddhism, and become one with everything. Let's look at some RAWS.
This Raw

言っただろう てんち 天地そのものが 私の自我なんだ わたし

It is as I said. I am heaven and earth itself

Like believe me dude. This is not how the standards on the wiki works, I know this because I’m one of the supporters for the God of Highschool and that series has way more direct inspiration to stories relating to Buddhism and you still needed these supporting evidences in the series for these exact same points you’re arguing for to be accepted.

No it's not bro, I literally had this exact same conversation with planck in that thread. You are talking about scaling cosmological elements that affect the scale of the universe. All of the ontological aspects I already evidenced as existing in the JJK universe proper, hence that thread preceding this one.

Uh no, the quote you gave me says “can also refer” to the universe as a whole, not that the kanji exclusively does refer to universe and not earth. Just that it has a possibility to depending on the context.

Yes, and you saw the whole spiel about it's specific buddhist context correct?

Yeah…in Sukuna’s case, but this doesn’t refer to Tengen. The contexts are different so you can’t use Sukuna’s statement in support of Tengen’s.

No they aren't. The context that Tengen is speaking of is Nirvana, which is outside of all other existences. Any context Sukuna uses would have to be the same one, because it's a lower existence than that of the realm of enlightenment.

I’m versed on these ideas of Buddhism and how inspiration from them can influence a verse, and I’m like telling you. This is not it, you’re gonna need way more evidence to argue for these extraordinary points.

Bro, I literally already passed a thread doing exactly what you are talking about. Please go read that thread in full.

 

[Maitreya12]

Sukuna's use of that kanji also exists in the raws of what Tengen says.

When Tengen says “the impurity of a hundred million people will flood the world” and the image accompanied with it is of a country being covered by darkness, the context is the earth.

No I am not. If you read the thread, you would clearly see I outlined several instances of direct usage of Buddhist concepts. Tengen only learned how to use Jujutsu after mastering Buddhism and spreading both in Japan. Do you know what happened directly after this? The golden age of Jujutsu that bread Sukuna and the best sorcerers of all time. Angel's cult, is directly tied to the historical japanese Abe clan and their name is "Nirvana pacification squad" a non-deistic group that despises sorcerers transferring their consciousness through time and erasing others still living.

Cool. None of this proves Tengen became one with the universe whatsoever.

You need direct confirmation in the series itself supported by showings for these kinds of claims to be proven. Nothing here states Temgen reached a plane above existence and became the universe, you’re just assuming that’s the case because of religious symbolism taken from the series. “Mastering Buddhism” has to be elaborated on with explicit confirmations, not assumed off the word “Buddhism” alone.

It doesn't get more blatant than that in addition to other stuff I outlined in the thread. You can't just say I'm pointing at inspiration when I made a whole thread about how these buddhist concepts exist in the manga proper.

Blatant that what? Buddhist inspirations are used in JJK? That’s not disputed. That doesn’t mean those inspirations go 1:1

Yes, I made a whole thread doing this.

It is? Tengen is literally a buddha, who spread japanese buddhism, and become one with everything. Let's look at some RAWS.
This Raw

Cool, prove becoming Buddha in JJK equates to becoming the universe. Where’s the showings and feats that support this notion in the series. Unless explicitly confirmed in the series, you can’t prove it’s a 1:1 match.

Do you know how many “Buddha” characters there are? Like literally the Buddha as a character? Many, they’re not given tiers like this. Buddha from record of ragnarok isn't “one with the universe” just because he’s literally the historical Buddha. That’s not how wiki standard work. And you’re not just arguing about historical figures, you’re talking symbolically which expands the notion dramatically.

No it's not bro, I literally had this exact same conversation with planck. You are talking about scaling cosmological elements that affect the scale of the universe. All of the ontological aspects I already evidenced as existing in the JJK universe proper, hence that thread preceding this one.

Yes, and you saw the whole spiel about its specific buddhist context correct?

You have to prove, not just that they exist, but that they’re 1:1 in regards to Buddhism. A perfect match. Saying words like “Nirvana” doesn’t mean “above all other existences” unless explicitly confirmed within the series itself. I’ve literally done this kind of thing before, with another series and that’s the kind of thing that needed to be proven.

Mori didn’t just gain omniscience just because it was states he reached enlightenment, there actually had to be a lot of supporting evidence to show that Mori became one with the universe.

No they aren't. The context that Tengen is speaking of is Nirvana, which is outside of all other existences. Any context Sukuna uses would have to be the same one, because it's a lower existence than that of the realm of enlightenment.

Where is the statement that Nirvana is “outside of all other existences” in JJK because unless you have that direct confirmation in the series, then that’s not confirmed in the series.

Bro, I literally already passed a thread doing exactly what you are talking about. Please go read that thread in full.

If you passed the thread for all these propositions then this thread for these abilities wouldn’t be needed, I disagree with what’s laid out in your OP and I’ll levy my disagreements.

If staff find my argument convincing in this thread then your propositions can be rejected regardless of what was said in the last thread.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Cool. None of this proves Tengen became one with the universe whatsoever.

This is an empty assertion, you didn't prove any claim.

You need direct confirmation in the series itself supported by showings for these kinds of claims to be proven. Nothing here states Temgen reached a plane above existence and became the universe, you’re just assuming that’s the case because of religious symbolism taken from the series.

No I am not. Tengen has time and time stated to have ascended into a higher being, and it's the whole basis for Kenjaku evolving humans into a higher existence.

The context is blatantly clear about what world means in this context, and I have a whole thread with this already past, so this is derailing at this point.

Tengen actually qualifying for higher dimensional existence is completely independent of the manga fact that he is apart of the universe of JJK and not just the planet Earth.

“Mastering Buddhism” has to be elaborated on with explicit confirmations, not assumed off the word “Buddhism” alone.

No it's not. It is blatantly shown the Tengen spread Japanese Buddhism alongside the foundations of Jujutsu from which everyone learned. This is also placed directly into the real world timeline of IRL Buddhism. I am not going to keep going over things that were expressly proven in the ontology blog and already accepted.

Blatant that what? Buddhist inspirations are used in JJK? That’s not disputed. That doesn’t mean those inspirations go 1:1

They do if you prove the specific concepts of Buddhism are tangible in the verse. Which I already did.

Cool, prove becoming Buddha in JJK equates to becoming the universe.

Because I showed you the Raws already which you didn't respond to, we have the sukuna example, and I made a whole thread outlining this already.

Tengen is literally a buddha who escaped Samsara, that's literally his whole thing. He spread buddhism and was the person who also discovered buddhism.

Mahito specifically states that Buddhist scriptures were textbooks to controlling the soul and that's why a random monk could see and interact with him and carries around the heart sutra, a Buddhist sutra was used to seal Sukuna's finger, Mudra are used by domain users for their expansion to be realized, etc.

Where’s the showings and feats that support this notion in the series. Unless explicitly confirmed in the series, you can’t prove it’s a 1:1 match.

I already did this.

Do you know how many “Buddha” characters there are? Like literally the Buddha as a character? Many, they’re not given tiers like this. Buddha from record of ragnarok isn't “one with the universe” just because he’s literally the historical Buddha. That’s not how wiki standard work. And you’re not just arguing about historical figures, you’re talking symbolically which expands the notion dramatically.

Yeah, I am not continuing until you actually read that thread. A lot of your arguments stem from not reading the literal pages of evidence I made to discuss which concepts were tangible and how so.

 

[Maitreya12]

Alright well, I could keep arguing this, filling this thread up with long and longer posts till we hit multiple pages,

But instead, I’m just gonna call some staff members, summarize the basic proportions and positions me and @Dr._whiteee are arguing about…

And we can get a clear answer that way on whether or not simply having the Buddhist inspirations or elements presented within a series is enough to give a 1:1 extrapolation of all the philosophical ideas that religion represents for the series to be upgraded using that as a standard. Because from the many, many examples that I know of on the wiki….it’s not.

But who knows, we could be having a whole wide wiki standard revision be set right here. We’ll see.

 

[KingTempest]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Damage3245 @Lonkitt @LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[Maitreya12]

To TLDR the positions by the way:

The point @Dr._whiteee is arguing for is because JJK has these statements of Tengen “being a Buddha and spreading Buddha throughout the world” and that JJK has symbolic elements of Buddhism in it, it then means that JJK fundamentally matches with Buddhism in its meanings, and therefore the standards that are found in Buddhism are extrapolated into JJK.

There is no explicit confirmation of things like “Nirvana is outside of all other existences” in JJK, it is only extrapolated from Buddhism and then applied to JJK without a direct confirmation that’s the meaning being used within the series.

Other extraordinary positions are being posited using the same argument such as casualty manipulation for Mahoraga and Higher dimensional existence for Tengen. Again, no explicit confirmation of what things like “Tengen being a higher being” means exists in JJK, the definition is being taken from Buddhist understandings of what being a higher being entails and then asserted onto characters in JJK as a 1:1 match. Claims like “Tengen being one with the universe” despite no clear showings or confirmations of that being the case in the series itself are made as well because of this reasoning.

I disagree with this notion as from my experiences with verses entailing similar pretexts of using Buddhist inspirations, there needs to be explicit and direct confirmations for these inspirations to be posited as truths for the verse and cannot simply be asserted off of its inspirations and like terms alone.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

To TLDR the positions by the way:

The point @Dr._whiteee is arguing for is because JJK has these statements of Tengen “being a Buddha and spreading Buddha throughout the world” and that JJK has symbolic elements of Buddhism in it, it then means that JJK fundamentally matches with Buddhism in its meanings, and therefore the standards that are found in Buddhism are extrapolated into JJK.

There is no explicit confirmation of things like “Nirvana is outside of all other existences” in JJK, it is only extrapolated from Buddhism and then applied to JJK without a direct confirmation that’s the meaning being used within the series.

Other extraordinary positions are being posited using the same argument such as casualty manipulation for Mahoraga and Higher dimensional existence for Tengen. Again, no explicit confirmation of what things like “Tengen being a higher being” means exists in JJK, the definition is being taken from Buddhist understandings of what being a higher being entails and then asserted onto characters in JJK as a 1:1 match. Claims like “Tengen being one with the universe” despite no clear showings or confirmations of that being the case in the series itself are made as well because of this reasoning.

I disagree with this notion as from my experiences with verses entailing similar pretexts of using Buddhist inspirations, there needs to be explicit and direct confirmations for these inspirations to be posited as truths for the verse and cannot simply be asserted off of its inspirations and like terms alone.

Absolutely not. Do not strawman my position when you don't even understand it. Planc and Duedate already saw my thread and understand I am not direct scaling to the actual cosmology form Buddhism, and for the other mods called to the thread please refer to this for my actual position and evidence.

 

[Maitreya12]

Absolutely not. Do not strawman my position when you don't even understand it. Planc and Duedate already saw my thread and understand I am not direct scaling to the actual cosmology form Buddhism, and for the other mods called to the thread please refer to this for my actual position and evidence.

Do you know how long your blog is?

That’s not a position, that’s a book.

I didn’t strawman you by the way, I broke down your point into its basic meaning and position you’re arguing for. You don’t need whole essays to summarize your point.

I quoted your exact positions and laid them out simply, that’s not a strawman that’s called a summary.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree with most, but will wait for more input.

 

[Robo432343]

maitreya spitting fax

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Hello, I am making this thread to add some more abilities to the Jujutsu Kasien verse. This thread is an extension of my last ability upgrade thread found here. In addition, I will also be attempting to upgrade the God Tier's AP for the verse. I will not be addressing speed as I planned to earlier in the year, as the topic has gotten more controversial since then and will likely require its own thread. Without further ado, let's begin.

God Tier AP
I would like to start first with AP. The new scaling for God tiers would be Island level based on the result of the calc linked here. The natural end utilization was okay'd in this thread. Characters who scale to the value are as follows:





That is all, really. I planned for stuff, but others have cooked up some calcs, so I will not be addressing that scaling here.

If the calculation is accepted I agree with This but Sukuna and CT Kashimo should scale to it.

Hax/Ability Addition
Recently, I made a JJK Ontology thread that discussed the nature of the reality of the verse and its deep connection with Buddhist ontology. This thread will expand upon my last thread and also add some new abilities to the verse. I will be linking the scans to short explanations here, but full context can be found within the blog. The following additions are proposed:

Barriers
Void Manipulation - The fundamental nature of the JJK universe is emptiness. Cursed energy and existence flicker darkly in the chaos, and we can see the same is true of the core of cursed energy, innate domains/souls, etc. Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" and calculations to manipulate this void and produce territories of their own. Advanced barrier users can even utilize Sunyata barriers to reality warp and base existence on abstract concepts. This mechanic also applies to Domain amplification, which uses this emptiness aspect to capture opponent techniques, thus neutralizing them. This should also extend to the domains of Sukuna and Kenjaku, given their ability to cast their special barrierless domains onto reality itself. As discussed in the blog, this void is a layer deeper than the type 2 info comprising existence, which itself is deeper than the spiritual/mental/physical split.

Disagree with this nothing states here anything about void Manipulation. Being abstract ≠ Void

Reality Warping - Kenjaku and Sukuna currently have this for type 1 domains, but Kenjaku and Tengen should also have this application added to their profile due to their barrier skill.

Agree with this

Vector Manipulation/Info analysis - Barrier users are responsible for accounting for the vector parameters of their territories and certain users can also directly control the coordinates of their domain. Advanced users can even flip their barriers' internal/external conditions and range. Additionally, all information inside of a barrier is privy to the user, with the exception being heavenly restriction users such as Maki and Toji.

Agree with this

Subjective Reality/Concept Manipulation type 3 - Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" as the base for their barrier construction. Aspects of the domain are seen as symbolic even when manifested into reality. An advanced user such as Tengen, was able to separate their consciousness from merging with the universe via barriers.

Disagree with CM type 3 because I don't see any conceptual manipulation here but agree with SR

Limited Time Manipulation - Miyo's simple domain was able to alter the flow of time within his domain by disavowing any binding conditions within his domain.

It's not stated all domains can do that.
Disagree with this if you don't have any additional proof for other domains capable of doing this

Time Manipulation/Sealing/Power Nullification - The Prison Realm boundary is a barrier technique which nullifies its targets powers before sealing them in a dimension cut off from the regular flow of time.

Agree

Absorption - Domain amplification absorbs enemy cursed techniques into its empty space.

Agree

Cursed Energy
Non-Physical Interaction - Concepts (type 2) and Void (cursed energy drives even the form of humanity from possibility and exists between mind and matter).

NPI agree but not CM type 2. What indicates CE here CM type 2?

Mental Manipulation - Prolonged exposure to cursed energy can erode the mind [2]

Agree

Ressurection - Cursed energy can resurrect souls and egos into new forms until they are exorcised, or their curse is released.

Agree

Empowerment - While negative emotions largely power curses and cursed energy, curses and humans can also be empowered by the collective beliefs of humans such as with the folk god Nanami fought and Sukuna himself in his prime. This effect can also be used through conduits such as talismans (which can be used by non-sorcerors).

Not sure about this

Sealing - Buddhist Sutras are capable of sealing away great evil. Additionally, sorcerers can empower themselves through heavenly restriction (as Kokichi did) and being vow (as Hakari did vs Kashimo).

It's self sealing

Non-Duality - Cursed energy arises from the inherent emptiness of reality and curses are described as between the physical and mental (see blog for reference).

Neutral.

Cursed Techniques
Concept Manipulation (types 2 and 3) - Cursed techniques work by sentient beings utilizing a "target concept" which can act as the basis for the technique itself and the actual target of the technique. Mahito (with his ability to see the soul) mentions humans being dominated by these concepts which cause metabolic configurations in the soul and then body. Sukuna utilized this mechanic of Jujutsu to bypass Gojo's Infinity after learning from Mahoraga, no longer manifesting slashes at where he thought Gojo was, but instead changing his techniques target concept to existence itself, in order to encapsulate Gojo in "that world" and bypass infinity. Type 2 users currently include Gojo's Satoru for bringing the concept of Infinity into reality and extending to mathematic abstracts and control over the concept/scale of distance [2] Yuki for breaking a conceptual framework with strength, bypassing conceptual defenses, and ignoring her own concept being targeted, Yorozu for construction of a conceptual perfect sphere, and Sukuna/Mahoraga for being able to target the concept of existence in order to bypass infinity. Kenjaku's Ganesha cursed spirit and Anti-Gravity technique could potentially qualify. All other cursed techniques fall under Concept manipulation type 3 unless meeting the criteria.

Disagree with CM type 2. CM type 3 works btw.
Only Sukuna World slash qualifies for CM type 2. Other than that Extention technique might Work but other than Sukuna and Nanami no one performed that.
Agree with Gojos Infinity being CM type 2
But other concepts/CT should be treated case by case

Cursed Spirits
Aura, (Grade 2 and up) responsible for - Madness, Manipulation, Empathic manipulation, and Perception manipulation - When fighting a strong grade 2 curse, both Kairi and Mai note the effects of the cursed spirit's aura to make them tremble, lose spirit, and become frightened. This aura is mentioned as capable of making normal people into a nightmarish state. This aura is described as foul and scorching.

Tenaciously agree with this

Sorceror Resistances
Madness Manipulation/Empathic Manipulation - Sorcerors can resist the aura of sufficiently strong curses which can drive opponents into a frightened and nightmarish state.
Mind Manipulation - Via willpower, Nobara was able to resist charming/compulsion effects from a cursed word user who had amplified his CT via talismans and an improvised domain.

This might work

This next section will address character specific additions not yet addressed by the above content

Kenjaku
Dimensional manipulation/Dream Manipulation - Kenjaku was capable of contacting regular humans in their dreams and escorting through a realm stated to sit between "dream and reality" to a different physical place in reality.
Gravity Manipulation - Through his CT Anti-gravity and its reversal, Kenjaku can utilize gravity like effects to crush his opponents, impede opponent attacks, and even save himself from the ground zero effects of a blackhole.
Immortality (type 6) - Kenjaku is capable of passing on his consciousness by brain hopping into new vessels.

Agree with everything except dimensional manipulation.

Tengen
Immortality (types 1, 4, & 9) - Tengen achieved the feat of becoming one with the universe. Her physical incarnations are a result of her rewriting the physical information of his vessels and separating her ego from the universe utilizing barrier jutsu.

Agree

Higher Dimensional Existence - Kenjaku labeled Tengen as " a higher being" and needed to take her body in order to move forward with his plans of merging all humans and evolving humanity and curses. Does not scale to Tengen avatar, only dissolved state.

Disagree this is not how HDE works. Need straight forward statement as for current standards

Power Nullification - Tengen was able to nullify the blackhole created by Yuki (with her help) to ensure Yuki's blackhole didn't spread beyond the Sunyata barrier.

Agree

Mahoraga
Causality Manipulation - Mahoraga's Dharma wheel is associated with causality and the function by which Mahoraga adapts. Mahoraga's physical adaption should be noted capable of reaching High 3-A levels depending on how complete the adaptation due to its ability to break through the infinite pressure of the perfect sphere.

For Casualty you should add different examples like how it adapts but Overall agree

Concept Manipulation (type 2) - Mahoraga was able to nullify Gojo's infinity, by both changing its essence and by targeting all of existence to reach Gojo.

Agree with this

Information Manipulation (type 2)/ Informational analysis - Mahoraga adapts to the fundamental information presented to him via attacks or exposure, this in turn allows him to analyze the information and adapt his own essence or capabilities to resist, become immune to, or counter whatever he has codified.

Agree

Yuki
Blackhole Creation - As a last resort, Yuki can make her mass so dense that she causes the creation of a blackhole. Yuki was also able to utilize her technique to contribute to neutralizing the very same blackhole.

Agree

Maki/Toji Additions
Resistance to Possession - Thanks to his heavenly restricted body Toji was able to overwrite the soul information of Ogami's grandson after she summoned only his body information for her grandson's soul to inhabit. This should also extend to Megumi (though to a much lesser extent obviously) who was able to resist Sukuna's attempts at hurting his allies, and whose soul was not completely demolished by Sukuna's Kodoku bath.

Agree

Resistance to Information analysis - Heavenly restricted persons cannot be targeted by domains that require such.

Agree

Information Analysis - Enlightened heavenly restriction users are able to see the "facets" or "information" of existence. So much so that the categorical distinctions between stimuli types stop existing, and users are able to extend their sensory range vastly beyond their bodies' natural range and sense through their environment, effectively "seeing the souls of inanimate objects". Gojo and Sukuna are also heavily implied to have reached this state via enlightenment after grasping the core of cursed energy.

Agree

Before I end, I wanted to touch upon the canonity of the novels and give a look into how they are made. Let's start by looking at our definitions of canon

Spoiler

A few things to note here. While the original author/creator is given precedence, this is not at expense of the copyright holder of a work. This is especially important when discussing Japanese copyright law, where legally speaking, as per Article 15-1 of Japan's copyright law system, when a work is developed by an employee of a corporation, the authorship of the product is to be attributed to the corporation at large, which here would obviously be Jump.

Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Research and Information Center CRIC


Given this and the explicit verbiage of own standards clearly highlighting that copyright holders also hold priority given primary canon, any works consented upon by both parties as official works of JJK, should at bare minimum, be considered secondary canon. This is evident by the explicit qualifier of tertiary canon being that

Materials overseen by copyright holds of Jump and Gege, would not be classified by teriary canon or non-canon.

This is important because Gege plays a large role in the oversight in not only the anime, but also the novels which I will touch on here and highlight an interview with the JJK manga editor (Katayama) and JJK novel editor (Nakamoto) where they explain the supervision process in an interview. I have cut to the most important parts




It is very evident that Gege his heavily involved with these and that they qualify for secondary canon status.

Completely agree with this.

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Ngl, I was kinda shocked when I saw that JJK Ontology blog. Can't lie, White has some serious dedication to a series who's scaling is in shambles, mad respects to bro. I agree with the CRT, though HDE and stuff I have qualms with-- the rest is fine.

 

[KingTempest]

Ain't nobody accept that calc