Jujutsu Kaisen Hax/Ability & AP Upgrade Thread Pt. 3

[MusicRelaxing]

also not a soul accepted that calc, gonna need more peeps to run through that shit. Tempest, couldn't you go to that thread and try to rumble some activity to get that reviewed?

 

[KingTempest]

also not a soul accepted that calc, gonna need more peeps to run through that shit. Tempest, couldn't you go to that thread and try to rumble some activity to get that reviewed?

I can try. It's late though so I'll do it tomorrow morning

 

[Vietthai96]

Hmm,
1. Disagree with HDE, many peoples already brought up the counter-argument so i don't think i need to repeat them.

2. Disagree with Dimensional Manipulation, nothing from what you post fit the standard, unless you try to argue that dream is 2 or 1 dimensional thus mean that they can shift between dimensional axes, but i don't see anything implies that

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Hmm,
1. Disagree with HDE, many peoples already brought up the counter-argument so i don't think i need to repeat them.

2. Disagree with Dimensional Manipulation, nothing from what you post fit the standard, unless you try to argue that dream is 2 or 1 dimensional thus mean that they can shift between dimensional axes, but i don't see anything implies that

Getting late so will probably be my last post for a bit but wanted to clarify:

I am okay with dropping HDE as the main piece of evidence is from a very recent chapter ao I am okay holding off and removing that for now.

As for dimensional manip I don’t mean like 1D/2D stuff, I thought that covered things like shifting between dimensional planes as we see in the panels I provided. If something else is more appropriate for what I just described I am fine switching that out as well.

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Getting late so will probably be my last post for a bit but wanted to clarify:

I am okay with dropping HDE as the main piece of evidence is from a very recent chapter ao I am okay holding off and removing that for now.

As for dimensional manip I don’t mean like 1D/2D stuff, I thought that covered things like shifting between dimensional planes as we see in the panels I provided. If something else is more appropriate for what I just described I am fine switching that out as well.

Sounds like Dimensional Travel to me, fits the bill to ya?

 

[Vietthai96]

As for dimensional manip I don’t mean like 1D/2D stuff, I thought that covered things like shifting between dimensional planes as we see in the panels I provided. If something else is more appropriate for what I just described I am fine switching that out as well.

The current standard is either you can increases or decreases the number of dimensional axes of a structure. Or you capable of shifting your position between dimensional axes, like for example, you jump shift from 1st axis to 2nd axis, shift between dimensional plane can be qualified, but you need to prove that it is actual dimensional plane as in axis not just shift between place, realm.

Tbf, this feat look like Immersion to me rather than Dimensional Travel or Dimensional Manip

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

When Tengen says “the impurity of a hundred million people will flood the world” and the image accompanied with it is of a country being covered by darkness, the context is the earth.

Cool. None of this proves Tengen became one with the universe whatsoever.

Never implied to be limited to earth only. At a closer look that statement in chapter 145 talks about how one contry forcibly evolving would result in basically the world ending.

Typically Heaven and Earth usually refers to the universe and earth but shrug

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Pedonar]

agree

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

so true

 

[SunDaGamer]

Agree with most things aside from Type 2 Conceptual Manip being in every CT, was the JJK universe being all Type 2 Info accepted?
We're gonna need better justification for Void manip too

Empty space and black holes are not examples of a void as they possess energy and exist in the conventional sense. Manipulating either is Spatial Manipulation and Black Hole Creation respectively.

Void manip requires the space to be non-existent, not just empty (and said space in the op possesses energy too)

 

[JnSteHar002]

Cool, I agree to the best of my understanding

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Agree with most things aside from Type 2 Conceptual Manip being in every CT,

CM type 2 for all CT was not proposed. Only the listed CT in that section count for type 2, the others are type 3.

was the JJK universe being all Type 2 Info accepted?

Yes, in my original ability thread and once again in my ontology thread.

We're gonna need better justification for Void manip too

See the ontology thread.

Void manip requires the space to be non-existent, not just empty (and said space in the op possesses energy too)

I suggest you look at the Sunyata and Dependant origination sections of the Ontology blog. The "void" discussed here is the fundamental aspect of existence. Energy flickering from chaos doesn't mean the chaos isn't void, it means it holds potential in of itself as stated by Kenjaku.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The current standard is either you can increases or decreases the number of dimensional axes of a structure. Or you capable of shifting your position between dimensional axes, like for example, you jump shift from 1st axis to 2nd axis, shift between dimensional plane can be qualified, but you need to prove that it is actual dimensional plane as in axis not just shift between place, realm.

Tbf, this feat look like Immersion to me rather than Dimensional Travel or Dimensional Manip

Thank you for the clarification. I switched the ability to dimensional travel. I don't really agree with immersion, as that ability is typically bringing someone into a plane of existence that is usually inaccessible by nature (dragging someone into a painting or video game for instance). This is Kenjaku traveling through realms accessible to others (obviously people have access to their dreams every night) and then transporting people through the realms (From their dreams to another point in physical space).

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Disagree with CM type 3 because I don't see any conceptual manipulation here but agree with SR

It is, CM type 3 covers abstractions that aren't universal in nature. Barrier users have to abstractly envision their domains using concrete images and calculations for the form of their territories. Subjective reality portion covers bringing said abstractions into their territories.

It's not stated all domains can do that.
Disagree with this if you don't have any additional proof for other domains capable of doing this

The mechanic Miyo used is not exclusive to him (as would be the case with him imbuing a CT into his domain). Miyo accomplished his effect by letting go of all Binding vows for his domain. This meant that A.) Maki had to agree to be apart of it, and B.) there was no punishment for losing matches. Miyo id this because the focus was on training and freeing Maki from her mental binds, and thus time was extended to allow for the necessary components.

So while you are correct that Miyo is the only one to display this power, due to the malleable nature of domains, this effect is something inherent to barriers and thus should go under the power page for it, as any sorcerer could theoretically accomplish this by letting go of all binding vows.

Innate domains are also already excepted as being able to exist outside the normal flow of time, see Sukuna ressurecting Yuji who'd been dead for at least a few hours.

NPI agree but not CM type 2. What indicates CE here CM type 2?

CE wouldn't be able to produce Type 2 CT if it can't interact with type 2 concepts.

It's self sealing

Not sure what you mean by this.

Only Sukuna World slash qualifies for CM type 2. Other than that Extention technique might Work but other than Sukuna and Nanami no one performed that.
Agree with Gojos Infinity being CM type 2
But other concepts/CT should be treated case by case

It is treated case by case, every CT is type 3 except the ones listed.

Agree with everything except dimensional manipulation.

Yeah I changed this to dimensional travel.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It is, CM type 3 covers abstractions that aren't universal in nature. Barrier users have to abstractly envision their domains using concrete images and calculations for the form of their territories. Subjective reality portion covers bringing said abstractions into their territories.

Not really. Can you explain what does this barriers governs? Being abstraction is not a thing we grant CM
CM needs to govern something. Which objects it's governing?

Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon.

The mechanic Miyo used is not exclusive to him (as would be the case with him imbuing a CT into his domain). Miyo accomplished his effect by letting go of all Binding vows for his domain. This meant that A.) Maki had to agree to be apart of it, and B.) there was no punishment for losing matches. Miyo id this because the focus was on training and freeing Maki from her mental binds, and thus time was extended to allow for the necessary components.

Yeah I do agree with Miyo Domain having different time flow

So while you are correct that Miyo is the only one to display this power, due to the malleable nature of domains, this effect is something inherent to barriers and thus should go under the power page for it, as any sorcerer could theoretically accomplish this by letting go of all binding vows.

Innate domains are also already excepted as being able to exist outside the normal flow of time, see Sukuna ressurecting Yuji who'd been dead for at least a few hours.

But the thing is I don't remember there was mentioned as this was done under different time flow from innate domain of Sukuna so Disagree with this notion unless I see a scan

CE wouldn't be able to produce Type 2 CT if it can't interact with type 2 concepts.

No it's not how CM NPI works.
For better example take Magic as example.
CE = magic and spells = CT.
Doesn't mean anyone who can use magic has NPI for CM.

Not sure what you mean by this.

My Bad. I should have specified. I'm suggesting it to change it into Self Sealing.

It is treated case by case, every CT is type 3 except the ones listed.

I wouldn't call any CT as CM type 3
Like Above I explained. It should be case by case. Spells generated by magic will have different effects doesn't mean all spells are CM type 3
Anti feats - Nanami CT not affecting souls and same goes for Mechamaru CT. Heck even black flash couldn't affect Souls. Some CT are like teleportation like Todos. They are not governing any objects in question

Yeah I changed this to dimensional travel.

Ok

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Not really. Can you explain what does this barriers governs? Being abstraction is not a thing we grant CM

Yes, really, I linked you the thread where type 3 was changed to accommodate this.

Barrier users have to carve out an abstract and symbolic space with their powers, these barriers then become extensions of the person, which is why domains can Innate (mind/soul), the body itself, or made via creating a new space. Either way based on how the barriers are abstractly made and personalized, it would fall under concept type 3.

Per standards: "Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. "
Lesser Fundamental Concepts: "Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale"
Definition for Self-Concept
"The individual's belief about himself or herself, including the person's attributes and who and what the self is"

CM needs to govern something. Which objects it's governing?

It depends on the ability. CE isn't governing anything, it's interacting with the concepts themselves.

Yeah I do agree with Miyo Domain having different time flow

But the thing is I don't remember there was mentioned as this was done under different time flow from innate domain of Sukuna so Disagree with this notion unless I see a scan

I already explained Miyo's ability to alter the flow of time was not something specific to him. It's being placed in the barrier capabilities section, not under anyone's profile. So I don't think there is really an argument here.

Innate's domains being separated from the regular flow of time has been accepted months ago. I also outlined the feat from Sukuna. Yuji dies at Megumi's feet when Sukuna pulls his heart out. Yuji was "dead" from that moment until the moment Shoko was about to cut him open from autopsy. Sukuna even attributes Yuji not being dead yet to the fact they were in an innate domain.

No it's not how CM NPI works.
For better example take Magic as example.
CE = magic and spells = CT.
Doesn't mean anyone who can use magic has NPI for CM.

The ability is for cursed energy in general. It doesn't matter if not all characters can do it, because it's being applied to the concept and capabilities of CT.

My Bad. I should have specified. I'm suggesting it to change it into Self Sealing.

Yeah that wasn't what I was confused about. The Buddhist Sutra that sealed Sukuna, was not done by Sukuna. So I'm confused as to why you are saying self-sealing.

I wouldn't call any CT as CM type 3
Like Above I explained. It should be case by case.

I mean that's fine, but you'll have to substantiate why by countering the evidence displayed.

Spells generated by magic will have different effects doesn't mean all spells are CM type 3

That doesn't matter by the nature of concept manipulation.

You also aren't actually addressing my evidence, so there isn't really much to say here besides I disagree with you for reasons presented in the OP.

Anti feats - Nanami CT not affecting souls and same goes for Mechamaru CT. Heck even black flash couldn't affect Souls. Some CT are like teleportation like Todos. They are not governing any objects in question

I don't think you understand what I am trying to put forth.

Nanami not being able to effect people's souls is different from souls in general. People souls are hidden in the innate domain and regular sorcerers can't perceive the soul. It's not a matter of CE not being able to interact. For instance, when Yuji hit Mahito it was because he could "see the counters of the soul. Similarly, regular people cannot perceive cursed spirits despite the cursed spirits having physical effects on them. This changes upon death and circumstance. So it's more about perception than the actual nature of CE.

If Nanami could "see" the soul he could then cut them.

We also saw this with the soul cutter blade, it only cuts souls. Yet Mai told Maki that if she could "see the soul" of inanimate matter she could also cut regular matter. Daido was able to cut Naoya despite being a regular human because he could perceive the void left by noaya when interacting with the environment.

So I heavily disagree with it not being applicable to the nature of CE.

 

[SunDaGamer]

I suggest you look at the Sunyata and Dependant origination sections of the Ontology blog. The "void" discussed here is the fundamental aspect of existence. Energy flickering from chaos doesn't mean the chaos isn't void, it means it holds potential in of itself as stated by Kenjaku.

The emptiness described in sunyata and the heart sutra isn't non-existence from what I can understand?

Usually we think that if a given phenomenon is not something, it must be nothing, and if it is not nothing, it must be something. But emptiness is just a word for pointing out the fact that no matter what we say or think about something, it does not really correctly characterize that something because our dualistic mind just gets stuck in one extreme or the other. Thus, we could say that emptiness is like thinking outside of the box, that is, the box of black-and-white thinking or dualistic thinking. As long as we stay within the ballpark of dualistic thinking, there is always existence, nonexistence, permanence, extinction, good, and bad. Within that frame of reference, we will never get beyond it, no matter if we are religious, a scientist, a Buddhist, an agnostic, or whatever. Emptiness tells us that we have to step out of that ballpark altogether. Emptiness points to the most radical transformation of our entire outlook with regard to ourselves and the world. Emptiness not only means the end of the world as we know it, but that this world never really existed in the first place.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The emptiness described in sunyata and the heart sutra isn't non-existence from what I can understand?

It is beyond both descriptions, look at the end of the quote you just posted

As long as we stay within the ballpark of dualistic thinking, there is always existence, nonexistence, permanence, extinction, good, and bad. Within that frame of reference, we will never get beyond it, no matter if we are religious, a scientist, a Buddhist, an agnostic, or whatever. Emptiness tells us that we have to step out of that ballpark altogether. Emptiness points to the most radical transformation of our entire outlook with regard to ourselves and the world. Emptiness not only means the end of the world as we know it, but that this world never really existed in the first place.

From Wikipedia

Perceiving dharmas and beings like an illusion (māyādharmatām) is termed the "great armor" (mahāsaṃnaha) of the Bodhisattva, who is also termed the 'illusory man' (māyāpuruṣa).[39] The Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra adds the following similes to describe how all conditioned things are to be contemplated: like a bubble, a shadow, like dew or a flash of lightning.[40] In the worldview of these sutras, though we perceive a world of concrete and discrete objects, these objects are "empty" of the identity imputed by their designated labels.[41] In that sense, they are deceptive and like an illusion. The Perfection of Wisdom texts constantly repeat that nothing can be found to ultimately exist in some fundamental way. This applies even to the highest Buddhist concepts (bodhisattvas, bodhicitta, and even prajña itself).[42] Even nirvana itself is said to be empty and like a dream or magical illusion.[43] In a famous passage, the Heart sutra, a later but influential Prajñāpāramitā text, directly states that the five skandhas (along with the five senses, the mind, and the four noble truths) are said to be "empty" (sunya):

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form
Emptiness is not separate from form, form is not separate from emptiness
Whatever is form is emptiness, whatever is emptiness is form.[44][note 2][note 3]

Which ties directly to Tengen learning Japanese Buddhism, later ascending into a higher being, creating the foundations for jujutsu, catalyzing the golden age of Jujutsu and later when tengen explains barrier mechanics and we get the explicit note of Sunyata's usage within the verse applying to this concept (in addition to the Mahito stuff).

This also ties into the non duality section of the ontology blog.

 

[SunDaGamer]

It is beyond both descriptions, look at the end of the quote you just posted

So wouldn't it be nonduality and not non-existence?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

So wouldn't it be nonduality and not non-existence?

Both

As long as we stay within the ballpark of dualistic thinking, there is always existence, nonexistence.

Emptiness not only means the end of the world as we know it, but that this world never really existed in the first place.

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form

 

[Arkenis]

I think the Buddha and the overall use of religious concepts are being greatly abused here and don't map onto the verse as exact as you make it out to be.

Cursed Techniques
Concept Manipulation (types 2 and 3) - Cursed techniques work by sentient beings utilizing a "target concept" which can act as the basis for the technique itself and the actual target of the technique. Mahito (with his ability to see the soul) mentions humans being dominated by these concepts which cause metabolic configurations in the soul and then body. Sukuna utilized this mechanic of Jujutsu to bypass Gojo's Infinity after learning from Mahoraga, no longer manifesting slashes at where he thought Gojo was, but instead changing his techniques target concept to existence itself, in order to encapsulate Gojo in "that world" and bypass infinity. Type 2 users currently include Gojo's Satoru for bringing the concept of Infinity into reality and extending to mathematic abstracts and control over the concept/scale of distance [2] Yuki for breaking a conceptual framework with strength, bypassing conceptual defenses, and ignoring her own concept being targeted, Yorozu for construction of a conceptual perfect sphere, and Sukuna/Mahoraga for being able to target the concept of existence in order to bypass infinity. Kenjaku's Ganesha cursed spirit and Anti-Gravity technique could potentially qualify. All other cursed techniques fall under Concept manipulation type 3 unless meeting the criteria.

Cursed tech being concept type 3 is again just taking the use of the word concept and taking it at face value. In several cases this just doesn't make sense for characters like Yuta, Inumaki, Nobara, Megumi, Nanami, etc, they don't utilize concepts. You can say Yuki does as it's emphasized for her.
And you're misinterpreting what Kenjaku means for extension, it's referring to one's extension technique, the same thing Nanami did back in his fight with Mahito, it has nothing to do with the techniques target concept.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

so the upgrade is trying to corelate a real world religion to the manga?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

No

 

[Arkenis]

deep connection with Buddhist ontology

No

White is very much trying to correlate it to the verse.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

He is using it as a support evidencie for context. Not a single justification in the op is using only religion as a basis. The single thing that is a quite suspect (In terms of using religion) here is Tengen's nature that is extremly vague in-verse

 

[LordGinSama]

The Tengen stuff isn't that important to the OP and White himself admitted it wasn't a hill he'll die on.


If you don't like the tengen stuff then it won't be used but the rest is fine. I do think the causality from Mahogara needs to be explained abit, I also don't think Mahogara's adaption should extend to High 3-A for his physical stats. Instead I'd label his adaption as "varies." since it really depends on what's thrown at him.


Another thing for Mahogara, I disagree with him having concept and type 2 info hax himself. He never really manipulated any of those abilities, instead he bypasses them entirely via the wheel so I feel like that's more so a resistance to CM and Information Type 2 than it is him actually manipulating them.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I won't be answering any more today nor tommorow after this comment

Cursed tech being concept type 3 is again just taking the use of the word concept and taking it at face value.

That honestly wouldn't make any sense. The idea of concept within verse is countless times being revered as something literal and not just a perception. "That's the technique's target concept", this followed by a show case of Yuki destroying a cursed spirit that straight up is stated to control concepts, as you can see in "Yes, a special grade cursed spirit. One that can entangle a concept with its technique's target". This ideia of "target a concept" is further elaborated in the newest chapters, where Sukuna to counter Gojo's Infinity, which by itself is stated to be a concept twice, one time in the guidebook and another in the canon LN (This one is way more blatant), needed to change the target of his cursed technique to bypass Gojo's defenses propely

In several cases this just doesn't make sense for characters like Yuta, Inumaki, Nobara, Megumi, Nanami, etc, they don't utilize concepts. You can say Yuki does as it's emphasized for her.

It maybe sounds strange, but that really doesnt mean much. I know a ton of verses where the UES is a conceptual system and most of the character' techniques are just as simply as something that a 8 years old would imagine in a playground. Just look at GoW. Magic in that verse literally is accepted as a conceptual 5D energy, and yet most of spells are simply thing as controling fire and ice

Another thing for Mahogara, I disagree with him having concept and type 2 info hax himself. He never really manipulated any of those abilities, instead he bypasses them entirely via the wheel so I feel like that's more so a resistance to CM and Information Type 2 than it is him actually manipulating them.

I would disagree. Maho changed the target (concept) of its attacks, and thats why Sukuna was capable to learn from that

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I do think the causality from Mahogara needs to be explained abit, I also don't think Mahogara's adaption should extend to High 3-A for his physical stats. Instead I'd label his adaption as "varies." since it really depends on what's thrown at him.


Another thing for Mahogara, I disagree with him having concept and type 2 info hax himself. He never really manipulated any of those abilities, instead he bypasses them entirely via the wheel so I feel like that's more so a resistance to CM and Information Type 2 than it is him actually manipulating them.

Can't post scans rn (will post in a bit) but essentially two parts:

The wheel represents pheneonoma and causality (Dharma). Due to the nature of CT, the wheel taking that form would also align with this function and it's apart of why Sukuna deduced the ability. there is also the fact that it took no damage from Sukuna's Domain cleave/dismantles, and his fire arrow, despite both of them damaging Maho. It was only beat by Purple Hollow which has exotic properties.

Mechanic wise, the wheel essentially needs to digest information regarding the cause (hit) before it adapts (effect). Sukuna was able to have Megumi tank UV cause which is also what sets up Mahoraga's adaptation to it.

As for Mahoraga, you are correct in that the adaption is not inherently his, so the defensive stuff outside of regen would only be applicable once the wheel has adapted. However, as Sukuna stated and showed, the adaptation is not only defensive. Mahoraga is the only one who can utilize the adaption and can do so offensively. The first time Mahoraga did this, he changed his literal essence to be capable of bypassing infinity, Sukuna (as supreme jujutsu user capable of copying things on the level of splitting his soul, healing brain with RCT, etc) stated that was impossible for him outlining how ridiculous it was. The second adaptation was Mahoraga cutting "existence" in the same way Sukuna did, and he would scale as such, albeit it is also extremely context dependant.

So maybe the wheel gets a separate key lol?

 

[LordGinSama]

I would disagree. Maho changed the target (concept) of its attacks, and thats why Sukuna was capable to learn from that

Yeah fair enough.

Snip

So maybe just use "up to [insert tier here.] via the Wheel of Dharma?

 

[Arkenis]

It maybe sounds strange, but that really doesnt mean much. I know a ton of verses where the UES come from a conceptual system and most of the character' techniques are just as simply as something that a 8 years old would imagine in a playground. Just look at GoW. Magic in that verse literally is accepted as conceptual and a 5D energy, and yet most of spells are simply thing as controling fire and ice

So just ignore any rhyme or reason? This asserts that the characters target a certain concept, why would this concept not mean much for how we assess the pna? And lets not bring other verses into this.

That honestly wouldn't make any sense. The idea of concept within verse is countless times being revered as something literal and not just a perception. "That's the technique's target concept", this followed by a show case of Yuki destroying a cursed spirit that straight up is stated to control concepts, as you can see in "Yes, a special grade cursed spirit. One that can entangle a concept with its technique's target". This ideia of "target a concept" is further elaborated in the newest chapters, where Sukuna to counter Gojo's Infinity, which by itself is stated to be a concept twice, one time in the guidebook and another in the canon LN (This one is way more blatant), needed to change the target of his cursed technique to bypass Gojo's defenses propely

Yeah and I'm saying we're taking the use of concept too literal here, Yuki's ct targets mass as a concept but it does not mean she is now controlling the concept of mass. The cursed spirit is fine. The idea isn't further elaborated on, Sukuna just used extension technique, its just a way of applying your ct to the world in different ways Nanami and Sukuna are just doing that. That LN scan has no translation in the imgur and I don't see the trans in the OP.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah and I'm saying we're taking the use of concept too literal here, Yuki's ct targets mass as a concept but it does not mean she is now controlling the concept of mass.

I feel like this is really ignoring Kenjaku's intelligence and experience in Jujutsu. Kenjaku isn't the type to throw the term concept out liberally like how Nasuverse characters do, if he deduces the ability and calls it a concept then it's most likely literal. After all, he didn't refer to concepts with Takaba's CT while analyzing it. If it weren't literal I don't think he'd pull put a curse which can get rid of concepts, and he'd most likely refer to Takaba's CT as a concept if he weren't being literal.

 

[Maitreya12]

I think the Buddha and the overall use of religious concepts are being greatly abused here and don't map onto the verse as exact as you make it out to be.

Yeah I agree with this point very much so. Buddhist inspirations alone do not grant the same standards as Buddhism itself.

Having like terms doesn’t equate to having the same foundational meanings unless explicitly clarified within the series itself. Tengen doesn’t get all the abilities that Buddhist philosophy entails just because she’s said to have “mastered Buddhism and spread it throughout the world.” That’s just extrapolating the standards of religion and applying it to the series without direct confirmation, which can be done to many many other series as well.

Things like sealing being applied to JJK needs to be founded in JJK itself and not extrapolated on from Buddhist understandings of the terms. Tengen having immortality type 9 should not be accepted without direct confirmation and showings Tengen became the whole universe itself and not just the planet and other such examples.

It needs to be found within the series itself and not based around the religious concepts.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Yeah and I'm saying we're taking the use of concept too literal here,

You have yet to substantiate this. What are yo taking from the statement?

Yuki's ct targets mass as a concept but it does not mean she is now controlling the concept of mass.

Yeah no.

Breaking reality founded upon a logical construct of circular definition would indeed need conceptual strength, that is the reason why Kenjaku is so surprised in the first place. Kenjaku then goes onto say "her mass can't be contained pragmatically or semantically" which is quite literally beyond definition or example.

Secondly, Yuki does not take on the logical consequences of her "mass manipulation". Kenjaku specifically notes she does not incur any weight or durability despite her "density" changing, which is why it's termed"virtual mass". Meaning it's conceptual and not physically existent, just the effects are. Based on this and the above, You would have to posit that Yuki must be immeasurable speed, power enough to nuetralie a blackhole, and actually does have immeasurable durability as well, despite us blatantly knowing that isn't the case and that she is using concept hax.

Thirdly, Kenjaku's use of "target concept" is very explicit. Yuki also confirms the target concept is Mass directly, and we know this is conceptual because all of Kenjaku's high grade cursed spirits CTs are now irrelevant to Yuki, the same we saw with Kenjaku's Ganesha curse which entangled concepts. Thus we know his earlier surmising about "Technique's target concept" is not limited to Yuki, or else she would not benefit from being immune to literally all of his high grade cursed technique.

This is further explored when Gojo defeats Sukuna by changing his target concept, and reaffirmed when Kenjaku watches Gojo die and correctly surmizes how Sukuna killed him, despite Kenjaku obviously not having the benefit of Mahoraga as the blue print.

There is a preponderance of evidence you need to actually counter instead of just saying "I don't think it's literal here" otherwise you are derailing.

The cursed spirit is fine. The idea isn't further elaborated on, Sukuna just used extension technique, its just a way of applying your ct to the world in different ways Nanami and Sukuna are just doing that. That LN scan has no translation in the imgur and I don't see the trans in the OP.

No he didn't. He extended the technique's target to encapsulate the concept of existence.

Nanami did not change his technique as Sukuna did, he flooded his CT into the rocks so that they hit and dismembered Mahito giving him enough time to escape. All you are doing is using the word "extension" here to draw a false equivalence without even knowing the nuance of the mechanics you are speaking on.

 

[Maitreya12]

He is using it as a support evidencie for context. Not a single justification in the op is using only religion as a basis. The single thing that is a quite suspect (In terms of using religion) here is Tengen's nature that is extremly vague in-verse

No there are. For example, this quote here:

It wouldn't though. If Tengen reached enlightenment via Buddhism, that means he reached nirvana. One cannot reach Nirvana by becoming one with the Earth as the Earth is still stuck in Samsara. This is evident by the ability for curse users to come back as spirits or for souls to be cursed. By becoming one with the universe Tengen must dissolve his will and settle into nothingness, which is why it wouldn't scale to his incarnation.

Nothing in the series says Tengen became one with the universe explicitly and nothing in the series of JJK ever says Tengen could not become one with the earth. The notion that Tengen could only become one with the universe and not the earth only comes from a Buddhist understanding of what samsara is that denies this notion, but nothing in the actual series itself uses this as a justification.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

No there are. For example, this quote here:

Nothing in the series says Tengen became one with the universe explicitly and nothing in the series of JJK ever says Tengen could not become one with the earth. The notion that Tengen could only become one with the universe and not the earth only comes from a Buddhist understanding of what samsara is that denies this notion, but nothing in the actual series itself uses this as a justification.

The single thing that is a quite suspect (In terms of using religion) here is Tengen's nature that is extremly vague in-verse

And also the previous thread where I also said that I would rather put Tegen scale into unknown instead of planet or universal range

 

[Maitreya12]

And also the previous thread where I also said that I would rather put Tegen scale into unknown instead of planet or universal range

Not a single justification in the op is using only religion as a basis.

These are two opposing quotes for me confused

But no a lot of things found from religious understandings are being used to justify ability ratings. Mahoraga’s proposed causality manipulation is based on Buddhist understandings of Dharma and Non-Dualism as a whole is again based around the Buddhist ideas and themes found in the series. A lot of things are being extrapolated from Buddhist religion and placed onto JJK as truths of the verse without very explicitly confirmation of things.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Nothing in the series says Tengen became one with the universe explicitly

Doesn't need to, he explictly tells us he is "one with heaven and Earth". He is a buddha who learned jujutsu through studying buddhism and gained enlightenment from this. Enlightenment is Nirvava. We are told to achieve this completely, Tengen has to dissolve his will. This is the state of Nirvana.

You are just choosing not to read because you are lazy as you've already admitted.

Until you do so, I'd ask you stop bringing this point up. It was already addressed with Planck directly, which you also ignored.

and nothing in the series of JJK ever says Tengen could not become one with the earth.

Yeah buddy this isn't how argumentation work. We don't have to prove a negative to bolster our already evidenced position.

The notion that Tengen could only become one with the universe and not the earth only comes from a Buddhist understanding of what samsara is that denies this notion, but nothing in the actual series itself uses this as a justification.

No it doesn't, the context has literally been broken down and laid it you several times and there is a whole "book" you could read that contextualizes it in JJK. You are choosing not to do that. Not my problem. Stop derailing.

 

[Maitreya12]

Doesn't need to, he explictly tells us he is "one with heaven and Earth". He is a buddha who learned jujutsu through studying buddhism and gained enlightenment from this. Enlightenment is Nirvava. We are told to achieve this completely, Tengen has to dissolve his will. This is the state of Nirvana.

Yes it does. It needs explicit confirmation that’s the case or else the standard is not set. Religious inspirations alone do not cut it. Being “a Buddha” means nothing unless explicitly clarified within the series itself that being a Buddha equates to being one with the universe. Is the word “Nirvana” even said in Jujutsu Kaisen? Because if not then enlightenment doesn’t even mean Nirvana unless directly proven so in the series, let alone an explanation about what Nirvana entails.

You are just choosing not to read because you are lazy as you've already admitted.

You’re literally just lying now since I never admitted to anything like that.

Until you do so, I'd ask you stop bringing this point up. It was already addressed with Planck directly, which you also ignored.

You know I’ve also talked to other staff members who disagree with this use of logic too, and we can have other staff members see and talk about this kind of logic and reasoning being applied to other thread.

Yeah buddy this isn't how argumentation work. We don't have to prove a negative to bolster our already evidenced position.

Actually in this case you’re trying to prove a positive. You say Tengen fused with the world to mean universe, I ask why can he just not have fused with the planet instead of the whole universe and you differ to religious understanding of Buddhism to try and prove your claim. The support for why it’s the universe instead of the earth is not founded in the series itself. So you failed to prove your positive claim since there’s nothing stopping the statement from referring to just the planet within the series itself.

No it doesn't, the context has literally been broken down and laid it you several times and there is a whole "book" you could read that contextualizes it in JJK. You are choosing not to do that. Not my problem. Stop derailing.

I’m not detailing and it’s not my problem that you take issue with that. You levied points brought up in the OP and I levied points against those positions, the contexts you provided don’t amount of evidence of the claims you make because they are not supported in the series itself.

 

[Arkenis]

This seems like a staff required discussion honestly. The religious references/framing for a verse should require an analysis to determine how valid mapping any part of the religion onto the verse is.