Yuki's can be conceptual since she's utilizing virtual mass, a hypothetical concept. But everyone else? You'd need to prove what other cursed techniques are even targeting as a concept. What is Yuta targeting? What is Todo targeting? What is Mai targeting? That is my issue with applying this to the entire verse. If you can't do that idk why this would be accepted.
One second I think there's some confusion. I don't think the OP's suggestion is that everyone can target concepts but rather Jujutsu is conceptual / abstract in nature.
If thats the case I agree, been agreed, but the OP has Cursed techniques and then has "Concept Manip type 2 and 3" so it seems as though White is arguing for cts to target specific targets.
I already did my guy. Kenjaku is breaking Yuki's technique down by breaking down the mechanics of Cursed techniques in general. "The Technique's target concept is Mass" means that all techniques target some concept and then apply this to reality. This is once again backed up, by Yuki's own concept resistance not allowing other cursed spirits to use their techniques on her, so it's clearly something shared between all techniques.
Nothing here remotely implies void manipulation. Can someone bring more context for this scan though? I can't recall what kenjaku is even talking about
This fits into SR more
We're getting warmer. Is this being strictly applied to Miyo or everyone? If it's the latter, that's a hard disagree
Should be restricted to the prison realm alone
If I had a dollar for each time someone has interpreted a scan to be something it's not... Not only is this hella contradictory considering cursed energy itself is gotten from negative emotions, it obviously doesn't drive/derive the form of humanity.
Thought there was a past thread about this and it was decided it wasn't resurrection? This also isn't combat applicable as there's no time frame on how long it takes for one to come back as a curse.
Gonna need more context on how this also affects humans, it doesn't help that the last scan isn't translated.
Another untranslated scan.
No scan, cursed energy arises from negative emotions. I don't know where this is coming from. Should this still be correct, the verse itself needs to treat the physical and mental as dual natures before this can even be considered.
Hard disagree. You're taking something that has been shown to be special in a few users and trying to generalize it to the rest.
I don't see anyone running mad here granted I've never participated in a thread involving madness so I'm not sure if statements of "nightmarish" or the likes are enough to qualify
Same as above
Dream manipulation
Since I began
Gonna have to start scrutinizing every word said here. Complete the sentence, it says "essence of its CE". Don't make this sound like it's changing its very concept. The CM here is the slash itself and I'm skeptical on how it's type 2 considering everything in existence wasn't cut down the middle, it's still an attack that travels and can be dodged. Should one target the type 2 concept of "all of existence" in a particular range, shouldn't everything in that range be split? You can leave this on the back burner for now, it's not a pressing issue to me.
What fundamental information? This is just info analysis
Isn't this a weakness of domains automatically targeting things with CE only? When the user themselves focuses on/targets them manually they're fair game
I'd prefer it if the wording wasn't changed so much to say something which clearly was not even stated in the work itself
Sorcerers already have Non-combat applicable Type 4 Immortality on the Cursed Energy Manipulation page
Then there's no need to this here. It's just unnecessary clutter
Yeah, you skimmed a majority of the evidence. Did you read the preceding blog? It doesn't really look like you are really understanding what is being put forth for this one.
I outlined above why it should qualify for both.
It's going under barrier power. I already why it was not something specific to Miyo. Feel free to address those arguments.
This is the barrier abilities section. No one will get barrier feats unless shown capable of doing such.
This would be you just not understanding the ontology of the verse. CE is derived from humans via emotions, aka that's how they access it. That is not mutually exclusive to CE existing a prior to humans, especially when you literally just read the scan where it stated "cursed energy in the form of humans" and the preceding scans I listed for CE.
Yes, which would imply that cursed energy is the driving force behind the form of sentient life correct? This also obviously extending to curses.
This is the cursed energy ability section. Only sorceros with an understanding of how to interact with type 2 concepts will benefit.
Im unaware of this thread, but apparently it's already on the profiles so consider this redundant.
All untranslated scans can be found at the end of the ontology blog that was stated to give full context in the OP.
See above
No, that is how humans access cursed energy. You have yet to prove your assertion or counter my evidence outside of just making baseless claims.
Incorrect, I already outlined why this wasn't the case. Please respond directly to my arguments.
Sukuna targeted type 3 concepts, aka personal concepts. Did you read the concept 3 change thread I linked?
Did you read the blog? I already outlined that the target concept can include both the foundation of the technique and the actual targeting of the technique itself. This varies, for instance, Yuki targets Mass for her technique which then amps her own being and bombaye. It doesn't extend past that.
No, the target concept for the technique is separate from Sukuna's extending the target of the slashes themselves. Sukuna didn't change his techniques foundation, he needed to be able to hit Gojo "in that world" which required he go outside the concept of space, the world, and existence to be capable of getting outside of infinity and bypassing his powers. Sukuna being able to do this was only because of the law bending powers of Mahoraga to find a way to adapt which is why even someone as skilled and knowledgeable as Sukuna, never attempted it before. It literally hadn't been conceptualized.
Correct, I addressed this above and in the blog.
Kenjaku's statement is not framing this is something unique to Yuki, he's deducing her technique based on his previous knowledge of how CT's operate and deducing which concept she controls based on what he observed of her absolutely shredding his own concept manipulator and sending him flying through a conceptually constructed reality.
I explained the first portion above.
Affecting physical substances does not bar something from being Concept manipulation. That is why all other users will get type 3, as the concepts they are targeting are personal, yet continue to govern some aspect of reality. Once again, read this thread where such things were fleshed out for type 3.
Naw, Kenjaku is clearly breaking down how CT operate and the fact that all of his cursed spirits were moot against her is direct evidence against your notion it was something specific to just her CT's mechanics.
Incorrect, Ogami's technique does not scale to others, what scales to others is cursed energy's interaction with things. Ogami's stuff was mostly used to discuss the ontological aspects of the JJK world, which you can feel free to actually tackle if you'd like, but has been twice accepted.
You are missing a couple of things.
This is directly symbolized and operationalized by the turning of the dharma wheel to grant said "adaption".
It's not, seeing existence without categorical distinction would indeed mean perceiving passed the point presentation as matter into the deeper information that comprises. You can try all you like but you aren't smelling light. Mai also specifically states the blade used by Toji, Daido, and Maki needed to be capable of "sensing the souls of inanimate things" which is obviously also more fundamental than somethings presentation.
No because it's also stated Maki can't even be dragged in against her will normally which is not the case with inanimate objects.
Quoting directly from the scan
Given what I outlined above, I'm not sure how this would be the case.
Unfortunately my attention span doesn't last long enough with extreme walls of text like that. If there's anything so important there just add it here however, if this is stemming from JJK's similarity to Buddhism then I vehemently disagree. The work needs it to be directly said to be the same for the real world standards to apply to it.
But it doesn't. It just fits into subjective reality
I sure I've read the entire thread but didn't see it. Mind linking the reply?
Ok
No. It isn't the driving force behind the form of sentient life especially in the case of cursed spirits that are born by the accumulation of cursed energy in areas that inspire a lot of negative emotions. In the first place, "sorcerer" & "non sorcerer" are simply terms created to distinguish between those who can use jujutsu and those who can't
Am I really gonna have to read all that
I made no claims I simply stated the standards by which these things are given considering I'm one of those who once busted their asses trying to give controversial characters the highest nature and aspect of non-duality
That wasn't accepted anywhere. You have a habit of turning something very simple to something overcomplicated so let me burst your bubble, by our standards, every verse has type 2 info unless explicitly stated however, unlike tensura for example, JJK has nothing that points to all things being made of information. You are trying to turn the fact that JJK has techniques that target fundamental info into something else entirely not to mention I was in Arkenis thread when it got added, went through the sandbox and current blog so this isn't new to me
Except Sukuna is never stated to target any concepts. He himself said he just sends slashes flying. The fact you think he's targeting concepts yet his technique is countered by durability already speaks volumes
And still the smae contradictions in that reasoning comes up.
No, it's simply because he didn't know how. I stand by what I said, "target concept" has only been used in reference to yuki
He obviously did have specific spirits with CM he said so himself. How jujutsu operates≠ all jujutsu operates in the same fashion. There are varied applications
Now you're just speaking jargon that's gonna end up confusing me. Please just keep it simple with me, I do not care for the use of all these terms. There is no conceptually constructed reality
I don't really care about the foundation being CM of any kind, my point of contention lies in assuming all CT target concepts even for stuff like Nobara's, next thing I'll hear is JJK souls are conceptual because CT targets concepts and Mahito's affects the soul. Also, jujutsu is only highly malleable to people like Sukuna
Yes and nothing discredits Sukuna saying he just sends slashes flying
I've read the thread and you missed the point but this is referring to the foundation of CT's and like I said above, I wish to drop the topic.
Except that it clearly Isn't being used for just interaction.
I'll ask again, what cause-effect manipulation is going on here? You have simply explained the mechanics behind his adaptation which is normal. It's not like manipulating to undo what has affected him, he simply becomes resistant or power nulls the technique.
The rest I addressed above so simply concentrating on the bolded part...stuff like this doesn't work on me. Mahoraga isn't changing it's essence, it's changing the essence of it's curse energy in response to infinity to negate it.
Once again, everything you've said isn't stated in the work. Just send the scans of where Maki was dodging Noaya's attacks please. It's seeing souls not sensing btw.
Except inanimate objects without CE have never once been dragged into a domain with a barrier
But none of that implies seeing information. She still describes that can be felt either way
And I definitely agree with this, there seems to be a lot of implication of wanting to propose abilities to JJK based on vague mentions of Buddhism and extrapolate them to the extreme, the mere mention of a Buddhist term is equated with real Buddhism and proposed everything related to it even if in verse it has never been elaborated on.
Yeah no, you don't get to use "I didn't read your evidence but still decided to post as if I did" as an excuse.
Anything that doesn't have it's own scan coming from the JJK manga especially that void manipulation.
Literally nothing in the OP is sourced from anywhere outside of the JJK universe.
It is. That's why this thread is up after the ontology thread was accepted.
You don't get to play this game right now, you just thought you could ignore everything else I said based on me not reading a blog.
That's not how it works. Dr verbatim said that the blog IS the full context
At this point, you're purposefully ignoring the full context, that's rather disingenuous and quite contradicts the dialectics of a debate.
No, I will answer any question you have, and already told you I would get to the rest of your post. I want a more clear discussion instead of us walling back and forth. But you still need to outline your concerns because of right now, all you are doing is throwing vague stuff out and not evidencing that you actually understand my position.
It does, this thread was explicitly stated in the OP to be contextualized by the ontology thread. That means it is precursor.
See, this is what I mean. All of this is quite literally gone over in the blog, you don't even have to read every section as it is outlined. Heck, lets' forget the blog for a second. Let's look, just at the OP.
Tengen than explicitly states "anyone skilled with barrier techniques can configure its structure to some extent," expressly telling us that barrier users have the transferable skill of emptiness manipulation.
No, the blog is necessary reading for context of this thread, and you still have yet to explicitly outline what your actual contentions are.
My 2nd reply being "I lack the needed attention span to pour over the entire wall of text that is the blog"
I will try to go over it, can't say when I'll finish though
I can now understand where you're getting this from since you explained it but I unfortunately still don't see it. Why do we assume that blackness is a void in the first place?
Could've sworn people were using this to say Sukuna has universal range but I digress and that brings up my main point of contention which is an over reliance on visual information with no explanation to what it is.
Now this is even better compared to the lone scan of Kenjaku that is vague. I'll want to speak about whether this should be treated as a 1:1 relationship just based off the name + a translators note but I'll drop the point.
Because, as the blog explains, the mechanics of the verse align with Buddhist ontology.
It's not reliant solely on visual information. It is heavily contextualized by the story as the blog discusses.
I mean, not only is this stuff contextualized in the blog as pointed out in the OP, but the scans I just went over were also in the OP. I'm not presenting new information to you. So I am a bit confused as to why you came in with said disagreements despite not getting the full picture first.
Again, I find these statements to be an extrapolation of religion and placed into JJK without direct clarification and explicit supporting evidence.
You missed my point. Yeah, the stuff with tengen and sunyata barriers are in the OP but not in the part discussing void manipulation. I'm saying it's better to use it there compared to the vague scan with Kenjaku.
I'm pretty sure we don't consider statements about chaos to automatically mean a void. It depends on the work in question.
Missed my point again. I'm not against relying on visual iterations neither did I say it's solely based on that I was saying the usage of specific visuals without any coherent explanation ends up being vague.
For example the untranslated scans, the void manipulation we just tackled (guess you can strike this one off). There's still a lot of stuff in contention but let me read the blog first
The problem is that you are hyperfocusing on this aspect of "Nirvana" which is in part due to your lack of context, and misunderstanding of the topic.
Yeah no that's now how any of this works. JJK not having the same cosmological elements as Buddhism (such as higher realms, 1-A statements, etc) doesn't mean the ontology doesn't scale. Once again, this point was expressly gone over in the blog with staff.
Except for the stuff in the blog which was accepted that you still have yet to go through. You can't ignore the proof submitted and then argue from a position of ignorance all while claiming I'm the one stretching things.
We can continue after this then, also the untranslated material is all at the end of the blog so that should also answer your concerns regarding the untranslated material.
I will say a few points, I am not familiar with JJK other than the 1st season of the anime, I am not at all familiar with Buddhism, the most I can attest to is that the L2-C rating for cosmology seems valid, may change my opinion if someone more knowledgeable finds some flaw in some scan or whatever.
I’m illustrating an example of how your logic doesn’t work by the standards on the wiki. I know the context revolving around Nirvana and it’s pretty condescending for you to just assume I don’t
Cool, now prove that’s what Nirvana entails in JJK, because without a direct statement of such, this wouldn’t apply to the series. Having like terms doesn’t equate to the same direct meanings as them in religious standards.
No it doesn’t. This part is I think the point @Dereck03 was trying to say in their previous post.
You’re literally saying “Tengen created Buddhism in JJK, therefore Buddhism fundamentally exists in JJK in the standards we understand Buddhism to be.” Literally, that’s literally the point you just said to me in the section I just bolded. And I think that @Dereck03 was saying in the quote above is that that kind of extrapolation done isn’t a standard we apply to the wiki. There needs to be a lot more direct evidence that Buddhism is fundamentally linked to Jujutsu in a foundational aspect than just having a statement of a character “creating Buddhism” or what have you.
Well until that “supernatural stuff” is expressly clarified within the series itself, it will remain as an unknown and cannot be extrapolated upon from Buddhism as being those “supernatural abilities” because there is no direct evidence of that.
Yeah and again you’re gonna need more concrete and direct evidence explaining what “heaven” is in the context of the series. This doesn’t have to be a direct statement by Tengen, it can be a symbolic one referring to “heavens and the earth” because even in the statement of Tengen being the world, she refers to the people’s impurity on earth flooding that world. Not the whole universe, just the planet earth.
Yes because a “higher existence” needs to be directly explained of what it entails in the series itself and cannot be extrapolated upon from religious understandings of what “higher existence” entails. That’s just not how the wiki works and I’ve literally dealt with series that have far far more direct linkage to Buddhism where “higher existence” still wasn’t totally accepted for a character reaching Nirvana.
Nope, you need a direct confirmation and statement that they’re “going against the Samsara framework of rebirth” otherwise that’s just extrapolation off of Buddhist concepts off of NAME ALONE.
There is no elaboration being done here, they’re just taking like terms found in the title of people’s names and equating them as foundational roots in the series.
No it’s not safe to assume that because there needs to be actually direct supporting evidence that this is the case. Tengen “took Buddhism and created Jujutsu” but we don’t know exact what Buddhism entails in the world of JJK and without that direct and explicitly information about it.
Yes it does, you need these direct statements and elaborations to prove the ontology scales 1:1 which has not been done as there is not enough supporting evidence to prove this point.
I’m not ignoring the proof submitted, I’m saying that proof isn’t enough to validate the extraordinary claims you’re making.
It follows the Mahayana buddhism it seems.
Saying “it seems to follow this type of religion” isn’t enough to warrant changes being made.
You're reading too deep into what I said and completely misread. I never argued for that. I simply stated that what Gege mainly uses is references to the Mahayana Branch of Buddhism. That's all.
btw have you read everything in this thread excluding the blog? (Like have you read every opposing argument to the OP and arguments from the OP and agreements from others, the scans they sent and read the quotes etc? basically everything)
It is not your duty to question a person in that way, what does it matter to you if the person has read everything or only the arguments of both sides or nothing, everyone has the right to agree with whoever they find most reliable and even more so if they provide their explanations as to why or why not they agree with the thread.
I mean, this is a common sense at this point, most of us not gonna agree with giving haxes because a verse mention mythology term, have mythology elements in it and then some abilities have name corresponse to said mythology term. I don't fault the logic, but at least on this wiki, not many gonna agree with it, cause it is a high leap in assumption
what duty is there? you seem to not understand on what I said and are completely misunderstanding my intentions, you're reading too deep into it. I'm simply asking if this person has read through this thread completely or nah, mainly because I am curious about what that person said about not reading the blog part.
... that's not what I asked. why do yall completely misread my intentions from such a basic ass questions
(not just intention. more so completely misreading WHAT i even said.)
I did read it, but it is too long so i just skim through it, i did get the general ideas of what the blog want to express
uh, when you say blog do you mean this thread we're in? or that sandbox blog one. cuz i was asking about this thread which is why i excluded the sandbox blog.
