Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[Duedate8898]

So we're gonna discredit the author's words? Is that even allowed?

Pretty much yeah, that's what the entire DoA thing pretty much does.

 

[Duedate8898]

JJK fans when Gege consistently implies the speed of sound is extremely fast for the verse (it just means we can use it for calcs cause feats go brr)

Maki literally said she would need to prepare if he came at the speed of sound, implying she is incapable of reacting on a whim

Gege also continuously shows that characters can react to bullets, explosions, and attacks which are speed of sound. The words might say one thing, but the story shows another.

Hence the entire, author's can't do math mentality that is a joke in the community, or was, haven't seen it in a bit.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Technically nothing is being discredited, we're just saying later on better feats could surface as the series progresses faster than Naoya's Mach 3

Is naoya said to be the fastest? Is he faster than gojo?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Gege also continuously shows that characters can react to bullets, explosions, and attacks which are speed of sound. The words might say one thing, but the story shows another.

Hence the entire, author's can't do math mentality that is a joke in the community, or was, haven't seen it in a bit.

Its fiction, you can't always expect everything to go by real world standards. This just means bullets, explosions are slower than sound

 

[Shey]

Is naoya said to be the fastest?

No

Is he faster than gojo?

No

 

[Shey]

Its fiction, you can't always expect everything to go by real world standards. This just means bullets, explosions are slower than sound

This makes no sense at all

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Is naoya said to be the fastest? Is he faster than gojo?

Naoya is on par with Naobito who’s the second fastest sorcerer besides Gojo, meaning that the Mach 3 shenanigans applies to everyone besides Gojo and Sukuna

 

[Duedate8898]

Its fiction, you can't always expect everything to go by real world standards. This just means bullets, explosions are slower than sound

We very pointedly choose as a community (broadly) here to ignore that idea. We will hold a story to real world standards unless the story itself states or shows otherwise.

Jujutsu Kaisen has not stated that explosions, or bullets are slower than sound. Nor has it really shown so in anyway that's obvious. The only real evidence of that is the fact that the cals that have been made allow characters to scale above the stated in-verse speed, but that's more a contradiction created by the fans so it can be ignored.

 

[Shey]

Naoya is on par with Naobito who’s the second fastest sorcerer besides Gojo, meaning that the Mach 3 shenanigans applies to everyone besides Gojo and Sukuna

Was Naoya ever stated to be on par with Naobito?, or is this because they use the same cursed technique?

 

[Duedate8898]

Naoya is on par with Naobito who’s the second fastest sorcerer besides Gojo, meaning that the Mach 3 shenanigans applies to everyone besides Gojo and Sukuna

It'll also ignore past sorcerer's

 

[Duedate8898]

Was Naoya ever stated to be on par with Naobito?, or is this because they use the same cursed technique?

I think we assume so cause of the cursed techinque. Though I could see an argument for them to be separate in speed cause the statement about Noabito was that with his natural-born sense of strategic movement and timing he became known as the fastest Jujustu Sorcerer (excluding Gojo)

 

[Tatsumi504]

This makes no sense at all

Not when you've seen a lot of crazy stuff like transonic light

 

[Duedate8898]

Not when you've seen a lot of crazy stuff like transonic light

I'm sorry?

 

[Tatsumi504]

I'm sorry?

I mean there's a lot of stuff, though not confirmed in JJK ,in fiction that doesn't adhere to IRL mechanics, and example of such things being light that's only transonic.

 

[Shey]

Not when you've seen a lot of crazy stuff like transonic light

What in the world?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

For both of these, not only does Kenjaku not get tagged (and you mean Mai) but we also have Itadori dodging Choso's attack as well and reacting to it as well. Generally, there are more feats in JJK that go above the Mach 3 statement than there are anti-feats that support it. So, as much as you might not like it, the most this will be used for is potentially making another calc, but otherwise the verse will probably be above the speed given by Gege

Yuji was ******** himself when going up against PB and said it’s 50/50 he can dodge it. Plus when he actually did dodge it he specifically baited it out and was ready for it and on top of all that had several meters of distance. The fact that he was getting outpaced by Subsonic Naoya is even more telling. We can’t ignore when an author gives us concrete scaling through numerous statements and showings on in favour of the calcs on here.

Also didn’t @ShadowWhoWalks calc Projection Sorcery to be like Subsonic.

 

[Duedate8898]

Again, there are more feats which consistently put them above Supersonic. Like the fact the same Yuji we're talking about, also managed to physically dodge the attack and, and did so when it was just an inch in front of his face. And he also blocked this same attack in the same fight. Utahime, also blocks this same attack from Choso with no real problem. Maki, managed to also catch a bullet right when it was really close to hitting her face, which is calced out to be around Hypersonic. Then we have the likes of young Geto blocking bullets with no real problem, and Kenjaku doing so as well. And finally, we have Takaba blocking an explosion after it occured.

This ignores the likes of past sorcerer's, Gojo, and Hikari who are in their own little scaling vacuums right now. Who also have feats which put them far above such speeds.

While the series might say one thing, it clearly shows another in the feats department. Hence why this will probably be ignored. Especially since as it currently stands, there's only one anti-feat at the moment.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Again, there are more feats which consistently put them above Supersonic. Like the fact the same Yuji we're talking about, also managed to physically dodge the attack and, and did so when it was just an inch in front of his face. And he also blocked this same attack in the same fight. Utahime, also blocks this same attack from Choso with no real problem. Maki, managed to also catch a bullet right when it was really close to hitting her face, which is calced out to be around Hypersonic. Then we have the likes of young Geto blocking bullets with no real problem, and Kenjaku doing so as well. And finally, we have Takaba blocking an explosion after it occured.

This ignores the likes of past sorcerer's, Gojo, and Hikari who are in their own little scaling vacuums right now. Who also have feats which put them far above such speeds.

While the series might say one thing, it clearly shows another in the feats department. Hence why this will probably be ignored. Especially since as it currently stands, there's only one anti-feat at the moment.

Blocked from several meters away. Dude the clos eup dodge thing is also used for Nanami against Mahito. Is Nanami several times Mahito’s speed? Utahime? You mean Uraume who basically overpowered several sorcerers at once included Yuji and Kusakabe. The fact that someone like that can react to PB from again several meters isn’t evidence they are supersonic. Bullets from a handgun and from what I know majority of those are subsonic and he did have distance to block them. Kenjaku is a special grade who might be even faster than Naoya and almost no one besides maybe Gojo, Sukuna and an even bigger maybe in Yuta scale to him. What kind of explosion?

Of course those two (and Sukuna) are out of the whole Projection Sorcery thing for obvious reasons (Gojo has a statement and Hakari has a feat of his own)

PB, Subsonic Projection Sorcery calcs, Mach 3 Curse Naoya after tons of acceleration, Naoya accelerating to surpass Subsonic speeds. It’s not just one thing.

 

[Duedate8898]

Blocked from several meters away. Dude the clos eup dodge thing is also used for Nanami against Mahito. Is Nanami several times Mahito’s speed? Utahime? You mean Uraume who basically overpowered several sorcerers at once included Yuji and Kusakabe. The fact that someone like that can react to PB from again several meters isn’t evidence they are supersonic. Bullets from a handgun and from what I know majority of those are subsonic and he did have distance to block them. Kenjaku is a special grade who might be even faster than Naoya and almost no one besides maybe Gojo, Sukuna and an even bigger maybe in Yuta scale to him. What kind of explosion?

Seeing as you support a verse which has one of its first calcs to give speed, use the logic of dodging an attack right before it happened to give speed, and then scales that speed to both the attacker and the one being attacked, I would assume you already know how that is treated here.

Edit: Had you mixed up with another user, ignore that bit.
But to answer your question, we have plenty of calcs of someone getting blitzed and then that same person scaling to who blitzed them or of someone just dodging an attack and then the person who made the attack scaling to them. Check the likes of Demon Slayer, Bleach, or One Piece just for examples.

And overpowering someone doesn't mean anything in terms of speed, since you don't have to be stronger than someone to be faster than them. And not to mention, much like Yuji, Uraaume (thanks for the name correction) only blocked the attack right before it hit.

And the point about the bullets is more that the never been shown to hit in the series, or really something to struggle with when they're used. No one struggles to avoid bullets, not Maki, Yuji, Geto or Kenjaku. Two of which are comparable in speed to much of the cast.

And it was an exploding tooth, so I don't know what type of explosion it's marked down as.

Of course those two (and Sukuna) are out of the whole Projection Sorcery thing for obvious reasons (Gojo has a statement and Hakari has a feat of his own)

PB, Subsonic Projection Sorcery calcs, Mach 3 Curse Naoya after tons of acceleration, Naoya accelerating to surpass Subsonic speeds. It’s not just one thing.

It very pointedly is one thing. The Naoya statement never gave us an exact speed, we only got faster than transonic speeds from it. The projection sorcery calc, has three other calcs which go against it, and then we have the Mach 3 statement which also has those three calcs going against it.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Seeing as you support a verse which has one of its first calcs to give speed, use the logic of dodging an attack right before it happened to give speed, and then scales that speed to both the attacker and the one being attacked, I would assume you already know how that is treated here.

Edit: Had you mixed up with another user, ignore that bit.
But to answer your question, we have plenty of calcs of someone getting blitzed and then that same person scaling to who blitzed them or of someone just dodging an attack and then the person who made the attack scaling to them. Check the likes of Demon Slayer, Bleach, or One Piece just for examples.

And overpowering someone doesn't mean anything in terms of speed, since you don't have to be stronger than someone to be faster than them. And not to mention, much like Yuji, Uraaume (thanks for the name correction) only blocked the attack right before it hit.

And the point about the bullets is more that the never been shown to hit in the series, or really something to struggle with when they're used. No one struggles to avoid bullets, not Maki, Yuji, Geto or Kenjaku. Two of which are comparable in speed to much of the cast.

And it was an exploding tooth, so I don't know what type of explosion it's marked down as.

It very pointedly is one thing. The Naoya statement never gave us an exact speed, we only got faster than transonic speeds from it. The projection sorcery calc, has three other calcs which go against it, and then we have the Mach 3 statement which also has those three calcs going against it.

Scaling to someone who blitzes you makes zero sense unless there’s something more like it not being a blitz or the character got faster or something. Calcing point blank stuff in JJK seems to be wrong as we’d have Nanami blitzing Mahito which makes zero sense or Yuji being faster than an attack he needs to bait out to dodge from several meters.

The difference is we know Uraume is on a higher level than Yuji and didn’t shit themselves at the thought of Piercing Blood.

What three calcs contradict majority of the verse being subsonic? Geto’s blitz puts him at supersonic but no one scales to him besides Gojo, Sukuna and Yuta. Hakari is in the same boat and Maki’s bullet catch is the only thing for mid tiers and it is heavily out weighed by what we have now regarding Naoya and the rest. We do know that Naoya basically blizted Yuji and Choso with Subsonic speeds since he had to ramp up to surpass said speed. Combined with how Maki talks about him coming at them at the speed of sound and flashes back to their fight implies he came at her at the speed of sound.

 

[Duedate8898]

Scaling to someone who blitzes you makes zero sense unless there’s something more like it not being a blitz or the character got faster or something. Calcing point blank stuff in JJK seems to be wrong as we’d have Nanami blitzing Mahito which makes zero sense or Yuji being faster than an attack he needs to bait out to dodge from several meters.

The logic to scaling to someone that blitzed you, cause you then prove you're able to fight with them comes from acknowledging that no one is ever always utilizing their peak capabilities, and can react slower or faster depending on any number of reasons. So the logic itself actually does work. And generally, something you're ignoring but at the same time paying attention to is proximity. You're also ignoring where the attack is aimed and predictability. Choso's attack speed being dangerous even if its only the speed of sound works up to a certain speed level cause of the above mentioned, reactions not always being at their peak, but also cause Yuji doesn't know when Choso will shoot or where exactly he'll aim. Yuji points out when he performs the feat of dodging Piercing Blood, that he'll dictate when Choso is going to shoot. Yuji set the odds in his favor and thanks in part to that, he was able to avoid Choso's attack. So yes, you can be faster something and still be threatened by it. How fast you have to be for it not to be a worry, I don't know and I don't even know if we agree on an exact parameter here but I don't think being 7 times faster makes that impossible.

And even with all of that, we'd still take the calc over the statements cause of

The difference is we know Uraume is on a higher level than Yuji and didn’t shit themselves at the thought of Piercing Blood.

Urahime being on a higher level also doesn't matter cause Uraume complains about the speed of the attack as well. Not to mention that both Choso and Yuji react to these guys attacks, so they'd have to reason to scale regardless.

What three calcs contradict majority of the verse being subsonic? Geto’s blitz puts him at supersonic but no one scales to him besides Gojo, Sukuna and Yuta. Hakari is in the same boat and Maki’s bullet catch is the only thing for mid tiers and it is heavily out weighed by what we have now regarding Naoya and the rest. We do know that Naoya basically blizted Yuji and Choso with Subsonic speeds since he had to ramp up to surpass said speed. Combined with how Maki talks about him coming at them at the speed of sound and flashes back to their fight implies he came at her at the speed of sound.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Dr._whiteee/Maki_Catches_a_Bullet_(again)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:USklaverei/Yuji_dodging_Piercing_Blood
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...suki_Bakugou_explosion_to_save_Sasuke_Zoldyck

All three calcs go against the Subsonic to Supersonic speed for the Mid-Tiers, especially since these characters are composed of the likes of Yuji and Maki. And I'm sure if we calced that final moment with Maki vs Naoya, we'd still end up with speeds that exceed supersonic, cause of when she moved to punch him (which was nearly a 180 spin) he was only a foot or slightly more away from her.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The logic to scaling to someone that blitzed you, cause you then prove you're able to fight with them comes from acknowledging that no one is ever always utilizing their peak capabilities, and can react slower or faster depending on any number of reasons. So the logic itself actually does work. And generally, something you're ignoring but at the same time paying attention to is proximity. You're also ignoring where the attack is aimed and predictability. Choso's attack speed being dangerous even if its only the speed of sound works up to a certain speed level cause of the above mentioned, reactions not always being at their peak, but also cause Yuji doesn't know when Choso will shoot or where exactly he'll aim. Yuji points out when he performs the feat of dodging Piercing Blood, that he'll dictate when Choso is going to shoot. Yuji set the odds in his favor and thanks in part to that, he was able to avoid Choso's attack. So yes, you can be faster something and still be threatened by it. How fast you have to be for it not to be a worry, I don't know and I don't even know if we agree on an exact parameter here but I don't think being 7 times faster makes that impossible.

And even with all of that, we'd still take the calc over the statements cause of

Urahime being on a higher level also doesn't matter cause Uraume complains about the speed of the attack as well. Not to mention that both Choso and Yuji react to these guys attacks, so they'd have to reason to scale regardless.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Dr._whiteee/Maki_Catches_a_Bullet_(again)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:USklaverei/Yuji_dodging_Piercing_Blood
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...suki_Bakugou_explosion_to_save_Sasuke_Zoldyck

All three calcs go against the Subsonic to Supersonic speed for the Mid-Tiers, especially since these characters are composed of the likes of Yuji and Maki. And I'm sure if we calced that final moment with Maki vs Naoya, we'd still end up with speeds that exceed supersonic, cause of when she moved to punch him (which was nearly a 180 spin) he was only a foot or slightly more away from her.

Yuji being faster than PB makes no sense especially when his problem was the speed of the attack as that is what he focuses on through out the fight (he literally says the blood beam is too fast).

Uraume had several meters of distance just like Yuji so no they still wouldn’t fully scale.

So 3 calcs to the several projection sorcery stuff and the numerous statements and narrative of the story about characters struggling with subsonic-supersonic stuff.

 

[Duedate8898]

Yuji being faster than PB makes no sense especially when his problem was the speed of the attack as that is what he focuses on through out the fight (he literally says the blood beam is too fast).

Uraume had several meters of distance just like Yuji so no they still wouldn’t fully scale.

So 3 calcs to the several projection sorcery stuff and the numerous statements and narrative of the story.

I'm not going to repeat myself for you in regards to the Yuji bit.

And both Yuji and Urarume have feats of moving to avoid the attack only when it was super close. Not to mention both manage to succeed in blocking it. Not to mention the likes of Naoya himself who deflects the attack as well, though when he reacted is dubious in comparison to those two.

And what several projection sorcery stuff? We have an explanation for how it works, one narrative statement of Naoya as the fastest (which is dubious cause of the likes of Hakari), and the narrative of the story also have the aforementioned 3 feats occuring. And of course, we only have a single actual anti-feat in Maki failing to react (at least currently as far as we know) to Naoya's Mach 3 speed.

If you feel so confident that your argument holds more weight, I do encourage you to make a CRT for it. But I'm just saying that we've ignored statements before from the text, and I don't see this being an exception.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I'm not going to repeat myself for you in regards to the Yuji bit.

And both Yuji and Urarume have feats of moving to avoid the attack only when it was super close. Not to mention both manage to succeed in blocking it. Not to mention the likes of Naoya himself who deflects the attack as well, though when he reacted is dubious in comparison to those two.

And what several projection sorcery stuff? We have an explanation for how it works, one narrative statement of Naoya as the fastest (which is dubious cause of the likes of Hakari), and the narrative of the story also have the aforementioned 3 feats occuring. And of course, we only have a single actual anti-feat in Maki failing to react (at least currently as far as we know) to Naoya's Mach 3 speed.

If you feel so confident that your argument holds more weight, I do encourage you to make a CRT for it. But I'm just saying that we've ignored statements before from the text, and I don't see this being an exception.

You’re welcome to ignore the narrative and in universe statements to support your stance but I’m not gonna. Calcing a character to be faster than attack they call too fast is pretty ridiculous.

So Nanami can blitz Mahito right? Shall we downgrade Mahito’s speed since he can’t even tag Nanami from inches away?

Shadowwhowalks did some calcs for several scenes involving Projection Sorcery and they came out at Subsonic. You casually gonna ignore Maki getting outpaced by Naoya before he even surpassed Subsonic speed?

I’d be happy to make a CRT I just need Shadow’s calcs or heck I’ll ask a calc group member to calc Projection Sorcery stuff.

 

[Tatsumi504]

and did so when it was just an inch in front of his face.

Maki, managed to also catch a bullet right whe

I've always wondered about this but why did the calc assume they only reacted when the attack was almost hitting them?

 

[Duedate8898]

You’re welcome to ignore the narrative and in universe statements to support your stance but I’m not gonna. Calcing a character to be faster than attack they call too fast is pretty ridiculous.

But it is something that is done here in regards to ignoring, and as I've said before, you can be faster than something but still be threatened by its speed. I don't know why you can't understand that.

So Nanami can blitz Mahito right? Shall we downgrade Mahito’s speed since he can’t even tag Nanami from inches away?

Mahito very clearly can still react to Nanami. So no, we wouldn't downgrade Mahito. This is a bad argument for you to try and use.

Shadowwhowalks did some calcs for several scenes involving Projection Sorcery and they came out at Subsonic. You casually gonna ignore Maki getting outpaced by Naoya before he even surpassed Subsonic speed?

She wasn't getting outpaced, she herself talks about how she was able to figure out how the techinque works and see through it thanks to her new eyes. Not to mention, you're also ignoring something that is pretty consistently said about Projection Sorcery, it's fast but that's not all there is to it. Choso brings it up, and Maki cracks the code on it. The fact that you can only make 24 movements per the 1 second under projection sorcery's effects and that this condition is passed onto your opponent when you touch them.

I’d be happy to make a CRT I just need Shadow’s calcs or heck I’ll ask a calc group member to calc Projection Sorcery stuff.

Good luck.

 

[Duedate8898]

I've always wondered about this but why did the calc assume they only reacted when the attack was almost hitting them?

Cause the panels only show their movements after the attacks are that close. In the case of Yuji, since what he's moving is his head and body, there's nowhere in there for him to be moving ahead of time while with Maki we're shown no in-betweens that show her moving to react to the bullet physically before it was as close

 

[Tatsumi504]

Cause the panels only show their movements after the attacks are that close. In the case of Yuji, since what he's moving is his head and body, there's nowhere in there for him to be moving ahead of time while with Maki we're shown no in-betweens that show her moving to react to the bullet physically before it was as close

They were still aware of the attack coming towards them though so I never really understood why it was assumed they only reacted right in that moment

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

But it is something that is done here in regards to ignoring, and as I've said before, you can be faster than something but still be threatened by its speed. I don't know why you can't understand that.

Mahito very clearly can still react to Nanami. So no, we wouldn't downgrade Mahito. This is a bad argument for you to try and use.

She wasn't getting outpaced, she herself talks about how she was able to figure out how the techinque works and see through it thanks to her new eyes. Not to mention, you're also ignoring something that is pretty consistently said about Projection Sorcery, it's fast but that's not all there is to it. Choso brings it up, and Maki cracks the code on it. The fact that you can only make 24 movements per the 1 second under projection sorcery's effects and that this condition is passed onto your opponent when you touch them.


Good luck.

Yuji literally calls the attack too fast that’s pretty blatant confirmation that the attack is faster than himself.

I’m aware Mahito scales to Nanami but it’s genuinely illogical to use Mahito attacking Nanami to say Nanami blitzes those speeds then scale Mahito to that.

So Maki who had already lost quite a bit of blood just decided to let Naoya beat on her for majority of the fight?

Thankyou.

 

[Duedate8898]

Yuji literally calls the attack too fast that’s pretty blatant confirmation that the attack is faster than himself.

No it isn't. This is something I think most people have a hard time realizing, but a statement only really means what it says. He doesn't say it's faster than him, nor does he say he's slower than it. He just calls it too fast. That only means, Yuji considers it too fast. It can still be slower than him, and be too fast. It can be the same speed as him, and too fast. Or it could be faster than him and too fast. Cause depending on the distance, the speed of the attack is more or less threatening. And furthermore, it being faster than him, doesn't work cause he blocks it and dodges it. So clearly, he can react to it.

I’m aware Mahito scales to Nanami but it’s genuinely illogical to use Mahito attacking Nanami to say Nanami blitzes those speeds then scale Mahito to that.

No it isn't, I've explained this above. You just don't accept my explanation.

So Maki who had already lost quite a bit of blood just decided to let Naoya beat on her for majority of the fight?

Yes, Maki is shown literally counting his movements, she's analyzing him and his techinque while he's doing all that.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

No it isn't. This is something I think most people have a hard time realizing, but a statement only really means what it says. He doesn't say it's faster than him, nor does he say he's slower than it. He just calls it too fast. That only means, Yuji considers it too fast. It can still be slower than him, and be too fast. It can be the same speed as him, and too fast. Or it could be faster than him and too fast. Cause depending on the distance, the speed of the attack is more or less threatening. And furthermore, it being faster than him, doesn't work cause he blocks it and dodges it. So clearly, he can react to it.

No it isn't, I've explained this above. You just don't accept my explanation.

Yes, Maki is shown literally counting his movements, she's analyzing him and his techinque while he's doing all that.

Don’t be ridiculous no human being calls something slower than themselves too fast. This is like saying someone is too strong but they’re weaker than you or a task is too hard when you find it easy. It’s very clear what Yuji meant you’re just struggling to deny it. I can repeat this as many times as you need to hear: Yuji blocked it when he had several meters of distance, Yuji dodged it when he had several meters and baited the attack. You can dodge an arrow even though it is faster than you with good distance as an example.

Guess we’re the same. Your explanation makes no sense. How do you borderline speed blitz someone you’re on the same level to?

So why did she try to fight back at the start? Why did she randomly decide to lie there like a sack of potatoes and take a beating if she can defend herself? Unless Maki just lost brain cells it seems more like she was overwhelmed by his speed.

 

[Duedate8898]

Don’t be ridiculous no human being calls something slower than themselves too fast. This is like saying someone is too strong but they’re weaker than you or a task is too hard when you find it easy. It’s very clear what Yuji meant you’re just struggling to deny it. I can repeat this as many times as you need to hear: Yuji blocked it when he had several meters of distance, Yuji dodged it when he had several meters and baited the attack. You can dodge an arrow even though it is faster than you with good distance as an example.

Firstly, we call flies fast when they're much slower than us. Like severely slower than us. And someone can be weaker than you still too strong, because how weak they are relative to you can still let them do something you don't want. And once again, I'll repeat, Yuji still reacted to this very attack and dodged it. And the dodge didn't occur when it was several meters away, it occured when it was inches from his face. The manga directly shows us that.

Guess we’re the same. Your explanation makes no sense. How do you borderline speed blitz someone you’re on the same level to?

You're not always reacting to your best capabilities. Sometimes, you're slower even if you're well rested and stuff like that. Your speed isn't gong to always be at the same level even from moment to moment.

So why did she try to fight back at the start? Why did she randomly decide to lie there like a sack of potatoes and take a beating if she can defend hersefl?

Because she was figuring out his techinque. She shares as much with us when she finally hits him at even greater speeds.

 

[Gitagon]

We all know the truth since the author has already confirmed it. So while saying JJK mid-tiers are supersonic/hypersonic might feel good momentarily, it doesn't change what the author is trying to portray. At the end of the day people have to remember authors aren't drawing each panel with a ruler in hand to make sure each pixel distance corresponds to a particular speed.

Other times it is just the rule of cool. Stuff like catching bullets is part of that and tons of street levellers who are nowhere near supersonic have reaction feats of that level just to make them look cool for a moment. It might be due to good prediction or heightened instincts/instinctual reactions but a lot of these characters are street level and nowhere near supersonic in almost every other appearance.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Firstly, we call flies fast when they're much slower than us. Like severely slower than us. And someone can be weaker than you still too strong, because how weak they are relative to you can still let them do something you don't want. And once again, I'll repeat, Yuji still reacted to this very attack and dodged it. And the dodge didn't occur when it was several meters away, it occured when it was inches from his face. The manga directly shows us that.

You're not always reacting to your best capabilities. Sometimes, you're slower even if you're well rested and stuff like that. Your speed isn't gong to always be at the same level even from moment to moment.

Because she was figuring out his techinque. She shares as much with us when she finally hits him at even greater speeds.

Flies react faster so they still qualify as fast. They’re fast enough (though partially due to their size) that your eyes will lose track of them very quickly. That makes zero sense if someone is weaker than you they aren’t too strong for you. He still baited out the attack that is not a normal reaction feat he can just pull off.

So what you wanna slap a varies on all their stats? Also what suggests Nanami or Mahito were off their game or slowing down? Such a thing would be notable enough to mention in the story.

So she can’t grasp his technique while fighting back? Why not? We see her start counting and learning at the start while she’s defending herself she has zero reason to lie down and take the punishment.

 

[Duedate8898]

Flies react faster so they still qualify as fast. They’re fast enough (though partially due to their size) that your eyes will lose track of them very quickly. That makes zero sense if someone is weaker than you they aren’t too strong for you. He still baited out the attack that is not a normal reaction feat he can just pull off.

Baiting out the attack, doesn't negate him only dodging when it was so close to hitting him.

So what you wanna slap a varies on all their stats? Also what suggests Nanami or Mahito were off their game or slowing down? Such a thing would be notable enough to mention in the story.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it's perfectly reasonable for someone, moment to moment, to slip up and react or even move slower than normal. And beyond that, why are you so insistent on this Nanami and Mahito thing? Nothing about those two fight is at all important to the speed argument you're making? The calc for the moment I'm assuming you're talking about was dropped due to it's insanely dubious nature all around that inflated the results from dodging a superhuman attack at the last second and moving further than actually shown. So please, seeing as you brought it up first, tell me why this is so important?

So she can’t grasp his technique while fighting back? Why not? We see her start counting and learning at the start while she’s defending herself she has zero reason to lie down and take the punishment.

Unless Maki's a super genius, I would expect it to take her time to figure out the big secret behind projection sorcery, that being the 24 movements a second condition that the user and anything touched have to follow. She is very clearly counting, even as he hits her. She seems to only make the full click at the end when she explains it to Naoya.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Baiting out the attack, doesn't negate him only dodging when it was so close to hitting him.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it's perfectly reasonable for someone, moment to moment, to slip up and react or even move slower than normal. And beyond that, thy are you so insistent on this Nanami and Mahito thing? Nothing about those two fight is at all important to the speed argument you're making? The calc for the moment I'm assuming you're talking about was dropped due to it's insanely dubious nature all around that inflated the results from dodging a superhuman attack at the last second. So please, seeing as you brought it up first, tell me why this is so important?

Unless Maki's a super genius, I would expect it to take her time to figure out the big secret behind projection sorcery, that being the 24 movements a second condition that the user and anything touched have to follow. She is very clearly counting, even as he hits her. She seems to only make the full click at the end when she explains it to Naoya.

But it also means he can’t react that fast under normal circumstances. The idea he only reacted at point blank is also dubious as he has zero reason to wait that long and could very simply be rule of cool like Nanami dodging Mahito at point blank. Also as an aside PB is stated to only be fast at the start so Yuji might not even be dodging a speed of sound attack.

So the calc was dropped due to inflated statistics partially from dodging the attack at point blank? So remind me why we’re using Yuji dodging PB at point blank again?

So answer me this why did Maki make no move to defend herself is she can? The only reasons that exist is Maki is dumb and decided to take unnecessary damage or Maki wasn’t able to keep up with his speed.

 

[Duedate8898]

But it also means he can’t react that fast under normal circumstances. The idea he only reacted at point blank is also dubious as he has zero reason to wait that long and could very simply be rule of cool like Nanami dodging Mahito at point blank. Also as an aside PB is stated to only be fast at the start so Yuji might not even be dodging a speed of sound attack.

So firstly, the idea isn't dubious because we're directly shown how it went. Unless you're inferring there's some missing panels or an area where we could've just missed Yuji moving out of the way of the attack before it got so close which isn't supported by anything. And rule of cool or not, the feat still occured. Same with Maki catching the bullet. Rule of cool or not, they still did these things

So the calc was dropped due to inflated statistics partially from dodging the attack at point blank? So remind me why we’re using Yuji dodging PB at point blank again?

Because what inflated the statitcs so much were a whole host of questionable factors, not just Nanami dodging at the last second. Such as how far Nanami dodged, the speed of an object within the calc being used to further increase the results and the immense speed difference that was created. Following that calc, Nanami would've reacted over 4000 times faster than Mahito was attacking, which would be ridiculous since that is a speed difference that has no reconcilable parts to it.

None of those are issues with the Yuji thing. So don't act like they're the same.

So answer me this why did Maki make no move to defend herself is she can? The only reasons that exist is Maki is dumb and decided to take unnecessary damage or Maki wasn’t able to keep up with his speed.

No, those are not the only answers that exist. You seem to forget that Maki, since she didn't follow the rules of projection sorcery, got frozen and then couldn't react for a second, which would allow Naoya to stack on plenty of hits before she could physically move even if she's able to count his attacks as they come out. Maki can very much afford to take this damage from Naoya, so she can afford to use time she might spend reacting to think about his technique further. This is supported by her counting even after he throws her into the wall.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

So firstly, the idea isn't dubious because we're directly shown how it went. Unless you're inferring there's some missing panels or an area where we could've just missed Yuji moving out of the way of the attack before it got so close which isn't supported by anything. And rule of cool or not, the feat still occured. Same with Maki catching the bullet. Rule of cool or not, they still did these things

Because what inflated the statitcs so much were a whole host of questionable factors, not just Nanami dodging at the last second. Such as how far Nanami dodged, the speed of an object within the calc being used to further increase the results and the immense speed difference that was created. Following that calc, Nanami would've reacted over 4000 times faster than Mahito was attacking, which would be ridiculous since that is a speed difference that has no reconcilable parts to it.

None of those are issues with the Yuji thing. So don't act like they're the same.

No, those are not the only answers that exist. You seem to forget that Maki, since she didn't follow the rules of projection sorcery, got frozen and then couldn't react for a second, which would allow Naoya to stack on plenty of hits before she could physically move even if she's able to count his attacks as they come out. Maki can very much afford to take this damage from Naoya, so she can afford to use time she might spend reacting to think about his technique further. This is supported by her counting even after he throws her into the wall.

So Yuji just decided to wait for the attack to get in his face before reacting? Why? I honestly feel like there’s no point discussing this with you since you disregard context, narrative and statements in favour of big numbers.

Why aren’t they? Isn’t it the same? The actual result of the feat being inflated by taking the character to only react at point blank when it not only contradicts the narrative but their previous and subsequent feats.

But Maki is shown fighting against him earlier so she clearly wants to defend herself. If she is so capable of fighting and reacting to Projection Sorcery as you’ve been pushing, why stand there and take unnecessary damage? Maki counting after getting hit doesn’t support your reasoning for her just giving up on any defense.

 

[Duedate8898]

So Yuji just decided to wait for the attack to get in his face before reacting? Why? I honestly feel like there’s no point discussing this with you since you disregard context, narrative and statements in favour of big numbers.

Firstly, Yuji only landed after the attack was shot as communicated to us, so he couldn't move his body any good way until it was that close most likely. Secondly, it's not that I"m just going in favour of big number, I'm just following the standards that have been used here for as long as I've been a member. I actually would be fine would transonic to supersonic whatever speeds. I just know, that here the calcs are considered more important. Especially if there is more than one that goes against such statements. The narrative and context given, also don't invalidate the calcs as you seem to so vehemently believe cause the logic behind them isn't as crazy as you're making it out to be.

Why aren’t they? Isn’t it the same? The actual result of the feat being inflated by taking the character to only react at point blank when it not only contradicts the narrative but their previous and subsequent feats.

No they are not. Because what inflated it was several things, not one. I told you what all they wore, and I also told you none of them exist within the Yuji calc. And Yuji reacting at point blank range doesn't contradict the narrative or previous calculated feats. Because, Yuji saying something is too fast, doesn't equal him being unable to react to it. That's just what you're assuming.

But Maki is shown fighting against him earlier so she clearly wants to defend herself. If she is so capable of fighting and reacting to Projection Sorcery as you’ve been pushing, why stand there and take unnecessary damage? Maki counting after getting hit doesn’t support your reasoning for her just giving up on any defense.

Her counting after getting hit does support that she can react to Naoya, which is what you're trying to say she can't do in this fight. And of course, at the very end, she's shown reacting to him, so trying to argue that she can't doesn't make sense even in context of the narrative as you seem to want to parade around.

 

[Arkenis]

mid tiers are definitely staying subsonic.