(JTTW) Sun Wukong CRT

[Antvasima]

Planck makes sense to me. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Planck69]

Anyways, for Buddhahood Wukong;

Omniscience, Omnipresence, Sealing, Incorporeality, Creation, Nonexistent Physiology (Nature type 2, Aspect Type 1 and 2 I think), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Transduality (Type 2) seem fine.

Acausality (Type 5) is just reaching since the statement itself is just Buddha saying he's beyond time. Invulnerability just describes the gaining of enlightenment by a Buddhist. Space-time Manipulation and Higher Dimensional Manipulation are virtually baseless since all the screenshot says is that "the Great Way controls the universe". Reality Warping seems to just be a quirk of Buddha's omnipresence. Immortality (Type 9) has no basis and Avatar Creation has a quote that doesn't at all mean what is claimed on the page. Elemental Manipulation seems to just be Buddha making a mountain chain and naming it after the Five Phases. Life and Death Manipulation quote is very vague.

I'm going to bed. If I'm lucky then I might find time this week for base Wukong.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Sure Ant. I haven't read the replies so I might just be repeating what's already been said but;

Splitting a chain of mountains isn't necessarily Large Mountain level. That needs a calculation first and foremost.

I'm not sure why you assume shaking mountains and the land is Island level. Could you explain that?

The "stirring up seas" quote for Country level looks very hyperbolic and seems to just be him bragging about his ability. Similar to the classic "call the winds and summon the rain" idiom I see in Chinese fantasy to denote a person of great influence. Are there any other feats on this level for this key?

The moon pulling feat for Continent level once again looks like he's bragging. For the Multi-Continent level rating, cloaking the earth in darkness can just as easily just mean the immediate visible area around him as earth is a pretty common word for the general surrounding land in eastern media. Further context for the feat would be appreciated.

A god that's a representation of something doesn't necessarily scale to it fully.

Being felt across the universe would at most be Multi-Solar System level if my memory of the calc serves me right. Even then, these grandiose phrases are a thing that's common in chinese fantasy. It needs supporting feats or context to it.

Can you prove these worlds are their own space-time continuums? If not then the feat is just Unknown.

If I find time, I'll go over abilities.

I'll work on the calcs for the splitting chain mountains thing.

I changed the shaking down to Mountain level since it's multiple mountains and the land they're on.

Stirring up the seas is mentioned twice by Sun Wukong and stirring up the oceans once by him as well. He is stated to have the power to stir up the oceans by someone else once and the phrase is never mentioned outside of him.

I based it on the fact Sun Wukong never lied about his abilities and what he can do. And non of his enemies ever questioned that he was capable of doing it. Plus he's consistent when stating what he can do.

He did the storm feat again which went into more detail here. It makes the Earth turn gloomy, Earth being capitalized this time. And creates waves in the thousands that are as big as mountains. Entire forests are destroyed.

They are confirmed to be the stars and constellations in the sky. And they are real constellations.

Ill changes the Universe level to Multi Solar System then.

And yes, as worlds are only used to describe Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld. And they each have their own space-time continuum.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Wukong downplay

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Anyways, for Buddhahood Wukong;

Omniscience, Omnipresence, Sealing, Incorporeality, Creation, Nonexistent Physiology (Nature type 2, Aspect Type 1 and 2 I think), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Transduality (Type 2) seem fine.

Acausality (Type 5) is just reaching since the statement itself is just Buddha saying he's beyond time. Invulnerability just describes the gaining of enlightenment by a Buddhist. Space-time Manipulation and Higher Dimensional Manipulation are virtually baseless since all the screenshot says is that "the Great Way controls the universe". Reality Warping seems to just be a quirk of Buddha's omnipresence. Immortality (Type 9) has no basis and Avatar Creation has a quote that doesn't at all mean what is claimed on the page. Elemental Manipulation seems to just be Buddha making a mountain chain and naming it after the Five Phases. Life and Death Manipulation quote is very vague.

I'm going to bed. If I'm lucky then I might find time this week for base Wukong.

Changed Acausality to Type 1 then.
Ok, I'll get rid of Invulnerability.
I'll get rid of Space-Time/Higher Dimensional Manipulation until I find the quote between Buddhas and the Great Way.

Bit confused by what you mean as a quirk of the Buddha's Omnipresence. Sun Wukong said he went to the ends of Heaven and saw five pillars which was the Buddha's hand holding up the sky.

I'll get rid of Elemental Manipulation and Immortality.

I mean he exiled him and he was born into another body, not that vague.

 

[StekFence]

Bit confused by what you mean as a quirk of the Buddha's Omnipresence. Sun Wukong said he went to the ends of Heaven and saw five pillars which was the Buddha's hand holding up the sky.

I’m pretty sure the buddhas hand had pee on it no? Wouldn’t that mean it was just that the Buddha was alr there, instead of manipulating reality? To me, it seems more like omnipresence which would make sense

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I’m pretty sure the buddhas hand had pee on it no? Wouldn’t that mean it was just that the Buddha was alr there, instead of manipulating reality? To me, it seems more like omnipresence which would make sense

But the Buddha's hand was seen at the edge of Heaven and looked so big it was holding up the sky. But that exact same hand was still in the Palace of Heaven normally sized. That's within the realm of omnipresence?

 

[StekFence]

But the Buddha's hand was seen at the edge of Heaven and looked so big it was holding up the sky. But that exact same hand was still in the Palace of Heaven normally sized. That's within the realm of omnipresence?

Maybe perception manip? idk. That could be within the realm of omnipresence, although I suppose I wouldn’t assume so from the get go

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Maybe perception manip? idk. That could be within the realm of omnipresence, although I suppose I wouldn’t assume so from the get go

I was going to say that but then Sun Wukong wrote on one of his massive fingers, came back and the writing was on the Buddha's finger. The Buddha is stated to have two bodies which are his physical one and the formless one. The formless one is his true body so it makes no sense for the writing to appear on his physical avatar. Especially since it's stated, his true body is the one that is Omnipresent.

 

[Planck69]

I'll work on the calcs for the splitting chain mountains thing.

I changed the shaking down to Mountain level since it's multiple mountains and the land they're on.

You still need a calc for the mountain shaking.

Stirring up the seas is mentioned twice by Sun Wukong and stirring up the oceans once by him as well. He is stated to have the power to stir up the oceans by someone else once and the phrase is never mentioned outside of him.

Again, is there an actual feat here that happened that isn't him just saying he can? I can think of multiple Xianxia novels that repeatedly use the phrase "destroy heaven and earth" but clearly aren't Tier 5+.

I based it on the fact Sun Wukong never lied about his abilities and what he can do. And non of his enemies ever questioned that he was capable of doing it. Plus he's consistent when stating what he can do.

Consistent how when he has no feats at that level? Not acknowledging bragging isn't really accepting it as true.

He did the storm feat again which went into more detail here. It makes the Earth turn gloomy, Earth being capitalized this time. And creates waves in the thousands that are as big as mountains. Entire forests are destroyed.

"Heaven and Earth" is a ridiculously common phrase when emphasizing on power. It doesn't mean anything on its own at all. The mountain high waves can be calced though.

They are confirmed to be the stars and constellations in the sky. And they are real constellations.

Ill changes the Universe level to Multi Solar System then.

I suppose an "At least X, Possibly 4-A" might work. X being whatever value the calcs end up being.

And yes, as worlds are only used to describe Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld. And they each have their own space-time continuum.

Having differing time flow isn't enough proof to qualify for a separate space-time continuum. Even places in our universe can have differing time flows.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You still need a calc for the mountain shaking.

Ya, I put it into the request forum thing going to have to wait for someone to pick it up.

Again, is there an actual feat here that happened that isn't him just saying he can? I can think of multiple Xianxia novels that repeatedly use the phrase "destroy heaven and earth" but clearly aren't Tier 5+.

Context is very important when it comes to stuff like that. If he has the ability to do things using magic that requires even more power, then it makes no sense for him to lie about something as simple as stirring seas and oceans. Plus two separate people besides Sun Wukong stated he could do it.

Consistent how when he has no feats at that level? Not acknowledging bragging isn't really accepting it as true.

Same context as the first. If a Character destroys a planet and then brags saying they can stir up the seas and reverse rivers and two others characters in the setting says he can do it, then it's a safe bet. But if you don't I'll remove them.

"Heaven and Earth" is a ridiculously common phrase when emphasizing on power. It doesn't mean anything on its own at all. The mountain high waves can be calced though.

Fair enough. Already put a calc request in.

I suppose an "At least X, Possibly 4-A" might work. X being whatever value the calcs end up being.

I'll try and get calcs for that as well then.

Having differing time flow isn't enough proof to qualify for a separate space-time continuum. Even places in our universe can have differing time flows.

I'll get back to you on this one, if I can't find anything I'll remove it.

 

[Planck69]

Context is very important when it comes to stuff like that. If he has the ability to do things using magic that requires even more power, then it makes no sense for him to lie about something as simple as stirring seas and oceans. Plus two separate people besides Sun Wukong stated he could do it.

Same context as the first. If a Character destroys a planet and then brags saying they can stir up the seas and reverse rivers and two others characters in the setting says he can do it, then it's a safe bet. But if you don't I'll remove them.

That's contingent on them actually destroying a planet. I wouldn't be saying this if Wukong actually performed a high level Tier 6 feat and then said this. As it stands, all we have is this statement repeated a couple of times and little else.

And repetition by others doesn't make it more legitimate. "He can call the winds and summon the rain!" being used by the peanut gallery in chinese fantasy is fairly common for instance.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That's contingent on them actually destroying a planet. I wouldn't be saying this if Wukong actually performed a high level Tier 6 feat and then said this. As it stands, all we have is this statement repeated a couple of times and little else.

And repetition by others doesn't make it more legitimate. "He can call the winds and summon the rain!" being used by the peanut gallery in chinese fantasy is fairly common for instance.

I guess so, Ill get rid of the moon and sea/ocean statements then.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Planck69.

Feel free to write your own Wukong draft, yes.

 

[Planck69]

No problemo.

And if you're referring to me drafting a Wukong page, I'll unfortunately lack the time to do anything like that until summer. I'm barely active as it stands.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I thought that you mentioned being willing to work on one earlier in this thread, but no problem. There is no hurry.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Okay. I thought that you mentioned being willing to work on one earlier in this thread, but no problem. There is no hurry.

I tried simplifying this into something anyone can understand, do you agree with it?

Mysterious is the ultimate virtue, and the Sect of Meditation leads to Nirvana. The purity of the truth is all−knowing; it pervades the Three Regions of the universe. Through its countless changes, it controls the Negative and Positive; unbounded are the embodiments of the eternal reality.

Nirvana is Mysterious as it is considered the ultimate virtue. The Sect of Mediation allows for you to achieve Nirvana.
Nirvana is all-knowing, and it spans throughout the entire universe. It controls the Negative and Positive (The Yin and Yang.) which is all Dualities. Buddhas are unbounded as they are the embodiments of Nirvana (The Eternal Reality)

 

[Planck69]

What does that have to do with the current discussion?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What does that have to do with the current discussion?

I cant use something in the CRT if it's not approved by mods right? If everyone argues over interpretation the feat might as well be void.

 

[Planck69]

And what is the feat that the above quote is referencing?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

And what is the feat that the above quote is referencing?

If you mean what part of the Novel is it from it's a statement talking about Nirvana, ghosts, and the underworld. If you mean what feats it could give access to, then it would put the Buddha's at 4-D if I'm not mistaken?

 

[Planck69]

That's not 4-dimensional at all. We don't give tiers from being unbound by the universe or time.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That's not 4-dimensional at all. We don't give tiers from being unbound by the universe or time.

If Nirvana is what the name suggests A Eternal Reality, then that would be another dimension.

 

[Planck69]

If Nirvana is what the name suggests A Eternal Reality, then that would be another dimension.

An "eternal reality" isn't synonymous with higher order reality or higher dimensional space. And just existing in another realm outside space-time doesn't get a tier.

Doesn't Buddha hold the universe in his hands or something? You could maybe get 3-A or Low 2-C out of that, if you can supply the quote.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

An "eternal reality" isn't synonymous with higher order reality or higher dimensional space. And just existing in another realm outside space-time doesn't get a tier.

Doesn't Buddha hold the universe in his hands or something? You could maybe get 3-A or Low 2-C out of that, if you can supply the quote.

The defining factor here is the word embodiment. A Higher Dimension is proven when it's clearly superior to the normal one.

If being the embodiment of this dimension makes you omniscient, omnipresent, giving you infinite and boundless power, the ability to control the Duality System of the entire Universe. And so many more statements AND Feats I'm not going over.

I would say that dimension is pretty damn superior, it doesn't get much clearer.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I mean this is bare-bones stuff.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Also "Flowery Language" is an extremely abused term when talking about JTTW, which is fair. But Flowery F language should only be called using context and proof. Reality is used 7 times in the novel.

Two times is talking about dreams (Unreality), 1 Time as a Chapter Title, another during a Poem, Another is describing the Dragon Palace (Achieving reality through contemplation.) but is too loose in context to be used, another is just for story purposes (This, in reality, is blah blah blah).

So every time Reality is mentioned it's not talking about anything. But the one time it mentioned being used in the right context, it's not another dimension?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Also, Nirvana is clearly not some (Mental state) that's even more ridiculous. Its referred to as a state of being, and reaching Nirvana makes you an embodiment of it. And the one line talking about what IT calls it another reality. It's not stated to be in Heaven, or on Earth, or in the Underworld.

And that's not talking about the numerous times a Buddha's power (Dharma) is stated to be boundless or infinite. And saying there's no feats or evidence that proves that is not true. Since nearly every FEAT the Buddha does is said to be done through Dharma Power, or his Power, or his magic.

Which would include the whole holding the Universe in his hand feat. Which you said was (Part of his Omnipresence.)

 

[Vietthai96]

So, Jorney to the West, that why it sound so familiar to me, the verse is the childhood of everybody in my country

 

[Planck69]

The defining factor here is the word embodiment. A Higher Dimension is proven when it's clearly superior to the normal one.

That paragraph is saying that vague cases should be analysed more carefully. Which is basically my point.

If being the embodiment of this dimension makes you omniscient, omnipresent, giving you infinite and boundless power, the ability to control the Duality System of the entire Universe. And so many more statements AND Feats I'm not going over.

I would say that dimension is pretty damn superior, it doesn't get much clearer.

What you think qualifies isn't what the standards allow to qualify. Omniscience and omnipresence aren't dependent on tiers. Controlling duality isn't a tierable feat. None of these allow for tiering on this site and at best are used as support to an actual feat(s) or statement(s).

I mean this is bare-bones stuff.

An infinite superiority that's never actually noted in terms that refer to power. All of these statements have nothing to do with the qualitative superiority that would warrant a Tier 2 or 1 rating.

Also "Flowery Language" is an extremely abused term when talking about JTTW, which is fair. But Flowery F language should only be called using context and proof. Reality is used 7 times in the novel.

And I can think of novels where "universe" is used 50+ times for characters that don't breach Tier 7. Repetition isn't accuracy or legitimacy.

Two times is talking about dreams (Unreality), 1 Time as a Chapter Title, another during a Poem, Another is describing the Dragon Palace (Achieving reality through contemplation.) but is too loose in context to be used, another is just for story purposes (This, in reality, is blah blah blah).

So every time Reality is mentioned it's not talking about anything. But the one time it mentioned being used in the right context, it's not another dimension?

Except again, it's not enough for those tiers in the context its talked about.

Also, Nirvana is clearly not some (Mental state) that's even more ridiculous. Its referred to as a state of being, and reaching Nirvana makes you an embodiment of it. And the one line talking about what IT calls it another reality. It's not stated to be in Heaven, or on Earth, or in the Underworld.

And that's not talking about the numerous times a Buddha's power (Dharma) is stated to be boundless or infinite. And saying there's no feats or evidence that proves that is not true. Since nearly every FEAT the Buddha does is said to be done through Dharma Power, or his Power, or his magic.

Which would include the whole holding the Universe in his hand feat. Which you said was (Part of his Omnipresence.)

This is in address to who exactly? Nobody here really cares about what state Nirvana is.


Anyway, I've said my piece. You can discuss the universe holding feat if ya want but I've made my stance clear regarding anything else. Feel free to convince the other staff.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I will contact staff, but I will also share my piece one last time.

That paragraph is saying that vague cases should be analysed more carefully. Which is basically my point.

Where? I'm sorry, where did you read that anywhere? The word analyze or study or cases or anything that involves taking a deeper look inst mentioned anywhere? It states the King who went to the underworld and helped a bunch of ghosts and spirits. The poem makes it even clearer what the notice says, cleaning sins, escaping from hell, rebirth, and reincarnation.

And the first part is clearly talking about Nirvana and not some, deeper insight on vague cases. He tells the entire story of what he did in the underworld, there is no reason for it to be "vague".

An infinite superiority that's never actually noted in terms that refer to power. All of these statements have nothing to do with the qualitative superiority that would warrant a Tier 2 or 1 rating.

Outside of the strongest beings in the JTTW Novel and their Universe acknowledging the power granted through Nirvana is Infinite and Boundless and can hold their entire Universe in their palm.

And I can think of novels where "universe" is used 50+ times for characters that don't breach Tier 7. Repetition isn't accuracy or legitimacy.

We aren't talking about other novels were talking about JTTW. And I'm not talking about repetition either. I'm talking about the word reality, being used in the only possible context using context clues that makes sense.

Except again, it's not enough for those tiers in the context its talked about.

And you don't explain why this is the first time I'm actively engaging in Vs Wiki so I'm trying to be respectful and nice. But you aren't willing to explain anything about why the context isn't enough.

This is in address to who exactly? Nobody here really cares about what state Nirvana is.

You because apparently holding the Universe in your hand is a quirk of Omnipresence, so I needed to clarify what Dharma and Nirvana were just in case.

 

[Planck69]

I will contact staff, but I will also share my piece one last time.

Where? I'm sorry, where did you read that anywhere? The word analyze or study or cases or anything that involves taking a deeper look inst mentioned anywhere? It states the King who went to the underworld and helped a bunch of ghosts and spirits. The poem makes it even clearer what the notice says, cleaning sins, escaping from hell, rebirth, and reincarnation.

I'm talking about the screenshot of our Tiering System FAQ.

And the first part is clearly talking about Nirvana and not some, deeper insight on vague cases. He tells the entire story of what he did in the underworld, there is no reason for it to be "vague".

Again, I'm talking in terms of general tiering standards. Of which the descriptions of Nirvana don't actually mean anything for tiering and attack potency as they are.

Outside of the strongest beings in the JTTW Novel and their Universe acknowledging the power granted through Nirvana is Infinite and Boundless and can hold their entire Universe in their palm.

Then they can be rated as High 3-A to Low 2-C depending on the specifics of the statement.

We aren't talking about other novels were talking about JTTW. And I'm not talking about repetition either. I'm talking about the word reality, being used in the only possible context using context clues that makes sense.

Said use doesn't equate to a higher tier even in that context. And the point I was making was that repeated use of a word doesn't make it legitimate.

And you don't explain why this is the first time I'm actively engaging in Vs Wiki so I'm trying to be respectful and nice. But you aren't willing to explain anything about why the context isn't enough.

It tells me nothing about how it can create, significantly or destroy any higher dimensional structure, since controlling duality is hax and sitting outside of them is just transduality. It at most works as support for the feat of holding a universe in one's hands.

You because apparently holding the Universe in your hand is a quirk of Omnipresence, so I needed to clarify what Dharma and Nirvana were just in case.

As far as I'm aware from the statements supplied, it is. Omnipresence and tierable feats aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'm talking about the screenshot of our Tiering System FAQ.

And the first part is clearly talking about Nirvana and not some, deeper insight on vague cases. He tells the entire story of what he did in the underworld, there is no reason for it to be "vague".

My bad then.

Then they can be rated as High 3-A to Low 2-C depending on the specifics of the statement.

Alright then if High 3-A and Low 2-C are your conscious I won't try to convince you any further.

 

[Zaratthustra]

We don't use our interpretation of concepts, dimensions, space, time, nirvana etc to tier, give an ability to a character. We use what its stated in the series with their interpretation.

Just for holding an universe in one hand doesn't make someone higher dimensional and such concepts never appeared in JTTW.

You must accommodate the series/character to the wiki system, if not then the said page will not be accepted or deleted as it conflicts with our standards. JTTW is not the first, or the last verse whose statements don't work well with the system - this being a reason why people agreed that his page to not be made in the last threads.

 

[Antvasima]

Zaratthustra is correct.

Thank you to him and Planck for helping out here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'd put references tbh, to make it look like more professional.

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good idea, yes.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't remember anything he holding close to actual universe. The only thing i remember about the verse is universe is just a flowery word to say Heaven and Earth, the World, etc.....

 

[Planck69]

I don't remember anything he holding close to actual universe. The only thing i remember about the verse is universe is just a flowery word to say Heaven and Earth, the World, etc.....

I mean, the totality of what exists is "The Heavens and Earth" so I don't really see how it's flowery. At most the size may not match up with ours but it's still a universe that he's holding.

 

[Vietthai96]

I mean, the totality of what exists is "The Heavens and Earth" so I don't really see how it's flowery. At most the size may not match up with ours but it's still a universe that he's holding.

Unless somehow we have the Earth with the size of universe, i don't remeber anything close, the scope of the verse is really limited, i think about at best Solar System tier. And to be honest, Chinese stories have massively flowery languages, it is the core of their language, as a Vietnamese guy i interacting with the language many times, it often got translated to our language thus i know the nature of it, for example the word "infinite power" is just a flowery way to said about how powerful the God in that verse, and many many more. But well if you guys going to accept it then i have nothing to say.

The things i opposing is Transduality and possibly AE and NEP, the Yin Yang in the verse is not something belong to the duality of binary system, it is just a ideology about of balance of the world belong to Taoism, a harmony between two opposing force of the world in the faith itself which is possitive and negative, evil and goodness, life and death, etc.....everything which consider black and white. But well if you guys think that is Transdual, then........

Also about Nirvana, it is something about the state of enlightenment, it is nothing about higher dimensional, it is something about state of nothingness (not NEP), free from all earthly desires, emotions, etc....allow oneself to ascend into Buddhahood, librating yourself from the suffering of mortal life, ascend to the heavenly realm. In Chinese literature, never once higher realm refer to higher dimensional, it is just a way to say about the Realm of God - The Heaven, the Sky. Everything about Nirvana, Yin Yang is just a teaching in the way of life; it is just us love to exaggerating these thing up.

Well sorry to everyone here if i'm happen to be too rude or disrespect, or rule breaking because of mentioning regilion, but Jorney to the West is my childhood, and it is the inspiration of another of my childhood - Dragon Ball, i don't want people somehow happen to read the profile and then obsessed with Nirvana or Yin Yang because of higher dimension or broken power while ignore the core meaning behind those things. Well sorry for derailing, i say my part. But anyway i respect you all decisions, i will try to help with all of my available knowledges