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(JTTW) Sun Wukong CRT

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Antvasima said:
@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @QuasiYuri @Zaratthustra

Would any of you be willing to help us out with evaluating this please?
Click to expand...
Qawsedf234 said:
Going by a similar question Ultima answered, its at most an Aleph-1 (an uncountable infinite set) number of universes; which would qualify for a Low 1-C rating. In order for it to be High 1-B you would need to show dimensional axis transcendence or reality-fiction interaction. Neither of which have been provided.
  • Aleph-0 of planets = High 3-A
  • Aleph-0 universes = 2-A
  • Aleph-0 dimensions = High 1-B
So either 2-A or Low 1-C. Being generous it would be the latter.
Click to expand...
I think the idea is to use the equivalence to large dimensional space which is already accepted to be a valid way to get higher tiers as described on tiering system tier 2's section:
A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.
I am a bit skeptical about the Buddha-lands since I am not so familiar with the cosmology; are the lower one given equal importance to the higher one?
Using the process, it does seem like Buddha(s) trivilized the hierarchy viewing it as insignificant to the so I could see Low 1-C being valid if the hierarchy is 2-A. If High 1-B is valid, the Buddha(s) would be 1-A from the point above.

In the poem, I saw the dharma not being mentioned from the OP's book version. I am not really familiar with the other version but what the OP used seems more reputable since it is checked by an expert.
 
Planck69 said:
I'd still recommend that staff check the abilities and whether they're valid since some stuff may have been missed.
Click to expand...
On that note, I noticed a few abilities and maybe a few weaknesses were missed. I'll try to find some scans but atm I'm busy so I'll leave them here for now.
Light Manipulation - When Sun Wukong was born, his eyes shot beams of light that reached all the way up to Heaven.
Underwater Breathing Type 2 - Sun Wukong claims that he can't drown.

Weaknesses
Despite being able to breath underwater, he sinks and has difficulty moving when submerged in water, it's like the only reason why Sha Wujing is even useful lol
He can't regenerate from True Samadhi Fire (as shown when he was thrown in Lao Tzu's brazier and in his fight with Red Boy)
 
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The fact that the only argument people try to use against me is "it's a poem" and my sarcasm despite not being the main point at all kinda shows how prominent the lack of High 1-B proof is.

There's no recursion, and no matter how hard you want a 16th century novel to be about power levels, it isn't Instant Death or whatever.
"The world in a grain of sand" is all it says. People act as if I was going against the novel, but the text litteraly just describe a similar case to Zhuangzi's dream anecdote.

Nowhere does it imply recursion, planets full of 1-B guys (which btw makes no sense for everyone to be above Buddhas according to the logic used), no grain of sand containing grain of sands, everything beyond that sentence comes from headcanon.

There's not much to say about 2 solitary lines. You either believe one thing or the other. But if two lines of text for 30 lines of pure personal interpretation/headcanon is a good trade offer for a "reliable tier", I would ask people what they are even trying to index here.
 
QuasiYuri said:
The fact that the only argument people try to use against me is "it's a poem" and my sarcasm despite not being the main point at all kinda shows how prominent the lack of High 1-B proof is.

There's no recursion, and no matter how hard you want a 16th century novel to be about power levels, it isn't Instant Death or whatever.
"The world in a grain of sand" is all it says. People act as if I was going against the novel, but the text litteraly just describe a similar case to Zhuangzi's dream anecdote.

Nowhere does it imply recursion, planets full of 1-B guys (which btw makes no sense for everyone to be above Buddhas according to the logic used), no grain of sand containing grain of sands, everything beyond that sentence comes from headcanon.

There's not much to say about 2 solitary lines. You either believe one thing or the other. But if two lines of text for 30 lines of pure personal interpretation/headcanon is a good trade offer for a "reliable tier", I would ask people what they are even trying to index here.
Click to expand...
What's Zhuangzi's dream anecdote?

But anyway, we argued Buddha to be 1A not below 1B.

I don't see the problem that you're trying to point out.
 
Greatsage13th said:
What's Zhuangzi's dream anecdote?
Click to expand...
What I posted earlier. Basically he's dreaming he's a butterfly and the butterfly is dreaming that he is Zhuangzi.

It's a famous and popular chinese paradoxical relationship which involves no recursion or hierarchy.
From what the text gives us (+ Occam's Razor), it's safer to considerate these 2 lines as a similar case rather than theorize an entire unmentionned structure and hierarchy.
Greatsage13th said:
But anyway, we argued Buddha to be 1A not below 1B.

I don't see the problem that you're trying to point out.
Click to expand...
The recursion interpretation puts most buddhahood dudes below the main cast and random humans as of now.
Although it doesnt matter that much.
 
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QuasiYuri said:
What I posted earlier. Basically he's dreaming he's a butterfly and the butterfly is dreaming that he is Zhuangzi.

It's a famous and popular chinese paradoxical relationship which involves no recursion or hierarchy.
From what the text gives us (+ Occam's Razor), it's safer to considerate these 2 lines as a similar case rather than theorize an entire unmentionned structure and hierarchy.

The recursion interpretation puts most buddhahood dudes below the main cast and random humans as of now.
Although it doesnt matter that much.
Click to expand...
Basically you're pulling out something that isn't from the Novel itself?

Not really, considering they could wield the Dharma which is the highest authority in JTTW even being above the Boundless Yin and Yang. So there wouldn't be any anything weird with scaling.
 
Greatsage13th said:
Basically you're pulling out something that isn't from the Novel itself?
Click to expand...
You realize that the entire High 1-B is something that isn't anywhere in the novel, right?

I'm just using Zhuangzi's dream stuff as a comparison for what is described here, since what's said about grain of sand n stuff, if taken litteraly, is just the exact same case.

Using a comparison to make a point easier to understand isn't "pulling out smth that isn't from the novel".
Greatsage13th said:
Not really, considering they could wield the Dharma which is the highest authority in JTTW even being above the Boundless Yin and Yang. So there wouldn't be any anything weird with scaling.
Click to expand...
Yet the supposed hierarchy is meant to encompass several Buddhas according to the argument made for it.
 
QuasiYuri said:
You realize that the entire High 1-B is something that isn't anywhere in the novel, right?

I'm just using Zhuangzi's dream stuff as a comparison for what is described here, since what's said about grain of sand n stuff, if taken litteraly, is just the exact same case.

Using a comparison to make a point easier to understand isn't "pulling out smth that isn't from the novel".

Yet the supposed hierarchy is meant to encompass several Buddhas according to the argument made for it.
Click to expand...
It's interpreted in a way that Planck and many others find acceptable except for you and Qawsef (formerly)

Wasn't it frowned upon to make such comparisons in the first place?

Zhuangzi's dream anecdote wasn't from the novel to begin with. We didn't even use examples that aren't in the novel. Unless it's stated that it exists in the novel then you can dismantle the cosmology that way to disprove the sand grains interpretation.

Not several Buddhas, an incalculable amount of Buddhas.
 
Greatsage13th said:
It's interpreted in a way that Planck and many others find acceptable except for you and Qawsef (formerly)
Click to expand...
Majority isn't the same as truth. Otherwise boundless Demonbane would be still true nowadays.
Greatsage13th said:
Wasn't it frowned upon to make such comparisons in the first place?
Click to expand...
I don't see why it should. It's legit what is described here, and I just took another similar case.
Greatsage13th said:
Zhuangzi's dream anecdote wasn't from the novel to begin with. We didn't even use examples that aren't in the novel. Unless it's stated that it exists in the novel then you can dismantle the cosmology that way to disprove the sand grains interpretation.
Click to expand...
All that talk about hierarchy and recursion isn't in the novel. So you litteraly are nearly ONLY using stuff which isn't in it.
There's no High 1-B anywhere in the work itself, therefore we can't put the verse at such a tier.

The dream anecdote being in the novel or not is unrelated with what's being said.

Greatsage13th said:
Not several Buddhas, an incalculable amount of Buddhas.
Click to expand...
Even worse. The main cast is beyond incalculable Buddhas since chapter 1? And you find no problem with that?
 
QuasiYuri said:
Majority isn't the same as truth. Otherwise boundless Demonbane would be still true nowadays.

I don't see why it should. It's legit what is described here, and I just took another similar case.

All that talk about hierarchy and recursion isn't in the novel. So you litteraly are nearly ONLY using stuff which isn't in it.
There's no High 1-B anywhere in the work itself, therefore we can't put the verse at such a tier.

The dream anecdote being in the novel or not is unrelated with what's being said.


Even worse. The main cast is beyond incalculable Buddhas since chapter 1? And you find no problem with that?
Click to expand...
Demonbane?

How is that similar?

Pretty sure we discarded High 1B for a simplistic low 1-C now

Pretty sure it is.

Of course there is nothing wrong with them being above an incalculable amount of purelands
 
Greatsage13th said:
Demonbane?
How is that similar?
Click to expand...
I'm just taking an example of how "majority rules" is a bad argument.
Greatsage13th said:
Pretty sure we discarded High 1B for a simplistic low 1-C now
Click to expand...
I don't think the main people in favor of High 1-B voiced their opinion on that. It's only some new inputs.
Greatsage13th said:
Pretty sure it is.
Click to expand...
Can't say it without reasons.
Greatsage13th said:
Of course there is nothing wrong with them being above an incalculable amount of purelands
Click to expand...
...
I don't know if you're joking here, but I hope you really do.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Going by a similar question Ultima answered, its at most an Aleph-1 (an uncountable infinite set) number of universes; which would qualify for a Low 1-C rating. In order for it to be High 1-B you would need to show dimensional axis transcendence or reality-fiction interaction. Neither of which have been provided.
  • Aleph-0 of planets = High 3-A
  • Aleph-0 universes = 2-A
  • Aleph-0 dimensions = High 1-B
So either 2-A or Low 1-C. Being generous it would be the latter.
Click to expand...
QuasiYuri said:
The fact that the only argument people try to use against me is "it's a poem" and my sarcasm despite not being the main point at all kinda shows how prominent the lack of High 1-B proof is.

There's no recursion, and no matter how hard you want a 16th century novel to be about power levels, it isn't Instant Death or whatever.
"The world in a grain of sand" is all it says. People act as if I was going against the novel, but the text litteraly just describe a similar case to Zhuangzi's dream anecdote.

Nowhere does it imply recursion, planets full of 1-B guys (which btw makes no sense for everyone to be above Buddhas according to the logic used), no grain of sand containing grain of sands, everything beyond that sentence comes from headcanon.

There's not much to say about 2 solitary lines. You either believe one thing or the other. But if two lines of text for 30 lines of pure personal interpretation/headcanon is a good trade offer for a "reliable tier", I would ask people what they are even trying to index here.
Click to expand...
The above posts make sense to me.

Should we apply 2-A statistics for Wukong and Low 1-C for the Buddha then?
 
As thing's stand, I think a lot of people (Myself included) are willing to settle for a Low 1-C Cosmology just to get the profile made.

Though I will state a Dharma-Bodied Buddha scales above their Cosmology. Around three to four levels of transcendence and infintesimalizing. And then one more level for the Dharmakaya.
 
Quick question, is Sun Wukong NEP updated to our current standards?
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
As thing's stand, I think a lot of people (Myself included) are willing to settle for a Low 1-C Cosmology just to get the profile made.

Though I will state a Dharma-Bodied Buddha scales above their Cosmology. Around three to four levels of transcendence and infintesimalizing. And then one more level for the Dharmakaya.
Click to expand...
Huh, then wouldn't that be above the normal low 1C and into 1C instead?
 
Right so, this thread reached 9 pages and I can't really read all of it.

Can anyone give me a quick Tldr on why Wukong will be High 1C? Was there any sort of hierarchy in the novel?
 
Antvasima said:
@Qawsedf234
Click to expand...
  • The art doesn't have a source
  • None of the resistances have justification
  • He still has beyond dimensional existence despite his highest tier being 1-C
  • The 1-C and High 1-C justifications go to a blog that probably needs to be edited down into something simple and direct. Or at least break down where every hierarchical layer lines up with the tiering system.
  • Infinite speed has no justification
  • Lifting strength has no justification for the last two keys
  • Not needing to eat or sleep is not a justification for Nigh-Infinite stamina
  • Infinite stamina has no justification
  • Omniscient seems kinda weird in my view, but that may just be me
 
Qawsedf234 said:
  • The art doesn't have a source
  • None of the resistances have justification
  • He still has beyond dimensional existence despite his highest tier being 1-C
  • The 1-C and High 1-C justifications go to a blog that probably needs to be edited down into something simple and direct. Or at least break down where every hierarchical layer lines up with the tiering system.
  • Infinite speed has no justification
  • Lifting strength has no justification for the last two keys
  • Not needing to eat or sleep is not a justification for Nigh-Infinite stamina
  • Infinite stamina has no justification
  • Omniscient seems kinda weird in my view, but that may just be me
Click to expand...
Thank you for helping out.

These problems need to be corrected then.
 
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