Jojo's Bizarre Cosmology [Part 1/???]

[FundamentalForce]

(Space and Time / Spacetime)

Well, here we are, ladies and gents!

I mean, this inevitably HAD to happen sometime, right? I mean, what with other popular verses getting cosmology pages and all. Still, I can't believe someone hasn’t done this yet given Jojo’s relative presence and popularity on this wiki. I guess you could say DRW001 did it first right here, but that’s more so giving qualitative superiority to something that transcends the entirety of the cosmology, not talking about the cosmology in and of itself.

Welp, guess if anyone’s gonna do it and get the ball rolling.

Why not me?

Welcome to the first, of many, many, MANY CRTs that’ll detail out and ultimately unravel the mystery behind the complex cosmology that spans all 9 parts of Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure.

On this grand journey, we’ll piece together the twists and turns of Fate, analyze the utter horrors of Calamity, and even cement what lies beyond it all. Ha, get it? Beyond?-

Yeah never mind, I’ll see myself out…

Bad jokes aside, I’d like to take a moment to emphasize I’m not here to bring forth an entirely fleshed-out page that details any and every part of the cosmology. To be blunt, it’d take two months of straight work, ignoring the real possibility of heavy burnout, to complete such a humongous task, and that’s free time I simply don’t have to spend all at once. Even if I did have said free time to spare, I sure as hell wouldn’t want to spend it sitting at my computer, endlessly typing until my fingers fall the **** off.

So, I reached a decisive compromise.

I’ll simply split everything up into bite-sized and digestible parts, having the added bonus of active feedback on my CRTs that’ll allow for more perspectives than just my own.

But in any case, that’s enough introduction (aka yapping) outta me…

Let’s get this party started off right!
​

So…SPACE​

It’s a complicated topic, isn’t it? I mean, I’d say so. From what scientists currently understand, the Universe is, at least, 46 billion light-years across. That’s a staggering number already, but multiple scientists can confidently conclude that the Universe is STILL expanding as I type this, and it has no signs of stopping anytime soon. But I obviously know you knew that already.

Nevertheless, as much as talk about how the Universe is NOW intrigues scientists, many also want to know how it all ends… Although I find it sorta funny I say now as if this is remotely a new idea.

People have been looking into this field of research for decades upon decades at this point, and it’s not as if I’m here to give an entire astronomy lesson or something, so I won’t.

All I ask is that you take a good look at the manga panel below.
​

Taken directly from the second-to-last chapter of Stone Ocean, Araki finally decided to shed some much-needed light on what exactly Made In Heaven did a few chapters prior.

In doing so, however, he not only revealed the exact way the original Universe operates, but through said reveal. He gave indisputable proof that the original Universe IS finite as well as all of spacetime itself, let me explain.

But to make this a little interesting, let’s play a little game. Try and guess which cosmological model, from what you can glean from the picture above, the first Jojo universe follows.
I’ll just condense the three theories about the end of the Universe as they currently stand, summarized for your convenience with the wonders of AI.​

• A. Big Freeze - The Big Freeze, or Heat Death, is a theoretical end-of-universe scenario in which the universe continues to expand indefinitely due to dark energy. Over time, galaxies drift apart, and stars exhaust their nuclear fuel, eventually turning into white dwarfs, neutron stars, or black holes. As star formation ceases and matter becomes increasingly sparse, the universe grows darker and colder. As black holes slowly evaporate through Hawking radiation, the universe will become dominated by low-energy particles. Entropy, or disorder, will increase until it reaches maximum levels, resulting in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. In this state, energy is evenly distributed, and no significant processes or activity remain, leading to a cold, dark, and lifeless universe.

• B. Big Rip - The Big Rip is a theoretical end-of-universe scenario in which the universe's expansion accelerates to the point that it eventually tears itself apart. This model relies on the concept of dark energy, which is thought to drive the accelerated expansion of the universe. If dark energy's repulsive force grows stronger over time, it could cause the rate of expansion to increase exponentially. As the expansion accelerates, galaxies, stars, planets, and eventually atoms would be torn apart. The process begins with the gradual disruption of cosmic structures, such as galaxies and solar systems. Over time, the force of expansion would become so intense that even fundamental particles like protons and neutrons would be ripped apart. The universe would end in a state where all matter and energy are dispersed beyond recognition, leading to a fragmented and highly disordered cosmos.

• C. Big Crunch - The Big Crunch is a theoretical end-of-universe scenario where the universe's expansion eventually reverses, leading to a catastrophic collapse. This model assumes that the universe’s gravitational pull, due to its total mass, is sufficient to overcome the expansion driven by dark energy or initial conditions. In this scenario, the expansion of the universe, which has been ongoing since the Big Bang, slows down and eventually halts. As the universe’s expansion reverses, galaxies, stars, and other cosmic structures begin to collapse back towards each other. This process accelerates as cosmic matter and energy are drawn closer together. Over time, the universe contracts, and temperatures rise dramatically. The universe’s density and temperature increase, leading to a state where matter and energy are compressed into a singularity, potentially resulting in a state similar to the conditions of the Big Bang. The Big Crunch would culminate in a highly dense, hot state, potentially leading to a new Big Bang.

• D. Big Bounce- The Big Bounce is a theoretical model suggesting that the universe undergoes a cyclical process of expansion and contraction. According to this hypothesis, after the universe reaches a maximum size, it begins to contract under its own gravity, leading to a Big Crunch. However, instead of ending in a singularity, this contraction could potentially lead to a new Big Bang, initiating a new cycle of expansion. This concept offers an alternative to the idea of a single, linear timeline for the universe, suggesting a more dynamic and recurring cosmic process.

If you picked A or B, then congrats! You didn’t get it right, but hey, at least you tried. Anyway, if you picked C or D on the other hand, then a big virtual clap from me to you!

From this manga panel alone, while taking other pieces of corroborating information into account. We can already glean a myriad of things right off the bat.

First and foremost : We can say, without a doubt, that the world of Jojo’s Parts 1-6 falls in line with the Oscillating Universe Theory. If you want more evidence besides what I’ve pasted above, Pucci flat-out confirms it here. An admittedly pretty jank Jojoveller translation can be found here also, but when you're making a CRT. Anything helps I suppose.​

From there, we can further establish and cement the presence of three base astronomical events that will be CRUCIAL going forward.​

• The Big Crunch - Although not CLEARLY outlined as an event in the panel above, it doesn’t take much to figure out that it happened for absolute certainty. Vol. 17, Ch. 156 shows us Emporio on the back of a dolphin, clinging on for dear life as the Earth’s geography rapidly shifts and changes around him. Then, in a literal instant, everything’s just…gone. The Earth, Our Solar System, Our UNIVERSE at that. Everything that was, let me reiterate, JUST THERE, is gone. Still, it makes sense, he DID just accelerate the entire Universe to its end. An indisputable fact that is aided, albeit unnecessary given what just happened during the last 8 chapters, with what is briefly highlighted on the aforementioned panel.
• Singularity Point - We see the infinitely dense ball in all its glory on a previous page, and again briefly here. It’s also highlighted, in visual and word form, on the aforementioned panel.
• The Big Bang - It’s quite literally what comes after the singularity, and is the only reason a new universe begins from said singularity in the first place. Although not highlighted on the aforementioned page like the Big Crunch, I don’t feel the need to write more than this on it specifically.

With that out of the way, you might be asking yourself. “Just how is this “indisputable” proof that space, at least when referring to the original universe, is finite?”
“Sure, it’s solid proof that the original universe follows a cyclic model, but how does it relate to the limiting of space?”

Well, I’m glad you asked, and so I’ll explain it like this.

A truly infinite universe has NO spatial boundaries, extending forever in all directions as it is infinitely large. If it wasn’t, it can’t be called infinite, as basic logic follows and tells us. An infinite universe also can’t have a beginning and a set ending, as having both would be a heavy contradiction. If an infinite universe HAD a beginning where it was smaller than it already is, it can’t have an end within the confines of finite time, less it stays finite itself. An infinite universe, with our current understanding of physics, has to always be, and always have been, infinite in size. Sure, it COULD expand from its already infinite size, but it’d just become a higher infinity, so it isn’t really “expanding” in the conventional sense of the word.

Now, let’s confer that with what we know.​

• The original universe started with an initial singularity that was infinitely dense and hot.
• The original universe, from that point, exploded in a big bang and began its lifecycle from there.
• The original universe’s lifespan was, AT LEAST, tens of billions of years old, yet still finite.
• The original universe, after having expanded all it could, snapped back due to gravity’s pull and collapsed in on itself.
• This Big Crunch created another singularity, which started the process all over again.

Speaking of lifespan though, I believe it’s about “time” to get into the other half of the CRT.

Ha, get it? Get it-

I’ve gotta stop doing this…

(Time)

Since we’ve established that the original universe is spatially limited, it’s time to tackle the other side of the equation and prove the same thing. It IS called spaceTIME, after all.

Known by any and all reputable scientists as the “4th dimension”, Time is a fickle thing to be sure. You feel like you don’t have enough of it at any given moment, and yet you have hundreds of billions of seconds left in your life. It’s really all about perspective and how you perceive whatever comes your way, but I didn’t come here to give you an encouraging life lesson.

I came here to make some instant waves in the status of one of my favorite fandoms on this wiki, and that’s exactly what I plan to do.

That reminds me of something I wanted to mention- Oh yeah!

(ゴゴTHE WORLDゴゴ and you, briefly talking about Time-based abilities in Jojo)

Stand abilities that deal with Time itself are always a joy to observe in action, aren’t they? If not for the awe you feel from seeing these grandiose abilities be used, then for just how rare they actually are in canon.

Having said that, have you ever wondered why abilities like The World have instantaneous activation speed if the universe itself is infinite in size?

No? Well, in all honesty, me neither until I actually decided to make this CRT, but that’s beside the point.

What is the point, however, is the fact, under the assumptions of an unending universe. This shouldn’t be the case at all.

Grabbing a short snippet from the Speed page of this wiki. We see that, under the Infinite Speed section, it states that an infinite speed character is “able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time.”

Applying this logic to a stand ability like The World and other abilities like it within the series. It doesn’t make sense for said abilities to cover the length of the supposed “infinite” universe in zero time. The only way it’d really make sense is if the ability itself was being used in a finite universe, crazy thought I know.

But wait! I hear you cry, “What about StrymULTRA’s CRT he made at the beginning of the year?”

Well, to that I’d say, it’d still be perfectly valid if we were talking about ANY other verse.

Stryum’s entire argument hinges on the single idea that the concept of Time in Jojo’s is infinite, but to REALLY sink my teeth into their argument. I’ll paste the main block of relevant text from the Tiering System page, tie it back to my argument above, and then finally break it down with a relatable analogy.

“The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.”

Alright, so in a spatially infinite and temporally everlasting universe, this idea would certainly follow logically. It got accepted in a CRT, after all. Since Spacetime is made up of the Past, Present, and Future, and the universe in this example is perpetual. Under this idealized example, uncountably infinite “snapshots” do make sense.

To go a little further for explanation’s sake though.

Someone like Yoshikage Kira with Bites The Dust, when using his ability to blow up approximately 1 hour of time, would be blowing up infinitely many snapshots in doing so. These snapshots require infinite energy to fully destroy, and so this is how every Time manipulator in Jojo got to High 3-A.

This is because when you try to take away from the infinite, you still simply end up with infinity as an end result.

Take the original Jojo universe, however, and we run into a logistical hang–up…

“We can say, without a doubt, that the world of Jojo’s Parts 1-6 fall in line with the Oscillating Universe Theory.”

Remember when I said that? Yeah, as it turns out. A big part of that theory, or any rational cosmological theory for that matter, is that the universe DOES end. Even if we don’t know WHEN such an event will take place on the grand cosmic stage, many theories base their ideas on the fact it WILL happen sometime within the next 100 billion to 100 trillion years or so. Yes, some estimates DO go that high, believe it or not.

Back on topic though, the original universe’s timeline simply can’t be made up of uncountable points for one reason and one reason alone.

The timeline, when ONLY referring to the universe of Parts 1-6, is finite in length, looping on itself due to the structure of the universe’s cosmology.
While we, of course, can’t figure out how much time passed between the point of time accelerating and The Big Crunch. The thing is, we don’t need a sure and pinpoint accurate number. All we need to know is that the universe ended in a finite period, that’s it.

Now at this point, I’d like you to take a second and imagine you have two boxes. One infinitely long box and one uncountable-long box, but only one set of infinitely long cards.

You successfully put the infinitely long set of cards in the infinitely long box, but you can’t quite manage to stuff every single card into the other box.

Sure, you can fit an INCOMPUTABLE number of cards into the uncountably-long box, but NOT every one.

It’s truly a useless task, you can never house the infinite in the finite, after all.

See what I’m getting at?

The Jojo timeline, given its limited scope, would have AN INESTIMABLE amount of points, true.

It just can’t have AN INFINITE amount of points, the timeline itself is just too short to contain that many.

So, to go back to our ever-so-evil serial killer, Yoshikage Kira.

Someone like Yoshikage Kira with Bites The Dust, when using his ability to blow up approximately 1 hour of time, would be blowing up unimaginably many snapshots in doing so. Instead of needing INFINITE energy to do so, he’d need a MASSIVE but FINITE amount of energy to do so.

Now, the next line of thought that may be running through your head is, “Well, this is all well and dandy, but what about Strym’s point they made at the beginning of their CRT?”

“It being assumed to be only 3-A essentially says that if Kira is in an infinite universe, he wouldn't be able to use it because of the place being too big for the ability being used.”

Well, that IS correct, in a sense at least…

“Irrelevant range” DOESN’T mean infinite or unmeasurable,
It just means their range DOESN’T MATTER BECAUSE they’re stopping time for the WHOLE universe.

The handful of statements that note every time-manipulating stand as affecting the whole “world” whenever they use their ability just backs up that reasoning,

In essence, I don’t know what’ll happen if someone like DIO activates The World in an infinite universe.

All I know is that his ability, as it’s used in canon, affects a finite universe.

At the end of the day, hypotheticals are unimportant.

With all this having been said, TLDR…​

• The original universe that Parts 1-6 take place in is not only limited spatially but temporarily as well.
• The spatial argument is backed up by Made In Heaven’s antics as well as the instantaneous activation speed of several time-based abilities in Jojo.
• The temporal argument is also backed up by Made In Heaven’s antics through the Oscillating Universe theory as well as the line of logic that follows.
• Finally, Irrelevant doesn’t mean Infinite, and other statements like “affects the whole world” only add to the arguments above.

What comes of this?

Well, everybody from the original universe, and universes that are similarly adjacent, go right back to 3-A with vastly altered justifications.

So, for example.

That’d be Canon Jotaro, his OVA version, but NOT his Eyes of Heaven version.

Why?

Because Eyes of Heaven has an infinite multiverse, not just for the SBR-verse, but for the original universe as well.

The multiverse isn’t something that’s present in the original universe, so the way time-based abilities function works is slightly different.

How is it different?

Well, I can’t tell you exactly right now, but I’m already finalizing the SBR portion of this CRT that’ll basically tell all.

I could’ve included it here, but this CRT is pretty long already.

So I simply opted to leave it out and instead get something posted before Sunday so I can ideally post the SBR portion of this CRT by the weekend’s end.

In short, everyone who isn’t named Canon Jotaro, OVA Jotaro, DIO, Yoshikage Kira, Diavolo, and Pucci can keep their High 3-A ratings. At least for now.​

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Chariot190]

I don't mean to be mean, but can you cut out all the fluff? You made a big wall of text, but added in a bunch of fluff and haha in it. It's actually kind of annoying.

 

[FundamentalForce]

I don't mean to be mean, but can you cut out all the fluff? You made a big wall of text, but added in a bunch of fluff and haha in it. It's actually kind of annoying.

...
I mean, I DID add a TLDR at the bottom for those who didn't feel like reading the whole thing through. If you're getting annoyed by my CRT's length, then just skim through it, I guess? I...honestly don't know what to tell you.

 

[Chariot190]

...
I mean, I DID add a TLDR at the bottom for those who didn't feel like reading the whole thing through. If you're getting annoyed by my CRT's length, then just skim through it, I guess? I...honestly don't know what to tell you.

Your CRT is filled with unrelated yapping, jokes, memes, small talk, etc. Trim it. Reading it isn't the issue, the issue is reading a bunch of unrelated stuff that bloats it. Literally over half the CRT is just, you saying stuff, like just say what you want to say my dude.

And why would I skim it? Do you not want people to actually read what you;'re trying to convey? Skimming is how you get dumb FRA trains or miss important details that turn the thread into a back and forth yap.

 

[FundamentalForce]

Your CRT is filled with unrelated yapping, jokes, memes, small talk, etc.

While I get the fact it's pretty long, to say it's quote-unquote "filled" with yapping, jokes, and memes is pretty out there honestly. It isn't like I'm making a joke every single paragraph you know.

Trim it.

Is there a rule against longer CRTs?

Reading it isn't the issue, the issue is reading a bunch of unrelated stuff that bloats it. Literally over half the CRT is just, you saying stuff, like just say what you want to say my dude.

Saying half my CRT is bloated is a little much, don't you think? I made like, two half-hearted attempts at jokes, that's it. Excuse me for trying to be personable, especially since this is my first CRT here.

And why would I skim it? Do you not want people to actually read what you;'re trying to convey? Skimming is how you get dumb FRA trains or miss important details that turn the thread into a back and forth yap.

I mean skim through what's "unnecessary" in your eyes, please don't put words in my mouth. If there's some yapping of mine you don't care for, skim it. If you find a joke unneeded, skip over it. Nobody's forcing you to read my CRT word for word.

 

[FundamentalForce]

Look, I'm really, really, REALLY not trying to turn this into something it doesn't have to become... I know you're probably used to reading shorter CRTs, but this is just how I write, okay?

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is just... stupid.

There's literally nothing in-verse even remotely hinting that the Jojo timeline is finite in lenght, and the reason why BtZ is High 3-A is also due to it also being capable to nuking even an hypotetical infinite sized universe as it's a time ability, thus should be able to affect all the possible space regardless of its size, due to Araki saying that time abilities in Jojo affect all the space, and are stated to have irrelevant range multiple times from WoG.

 

[FundamentalForce]

This is just... stupid.

There's literally nothing in-verse even remotely hinting that the Jojo timeline is finite in lenght,

Made in Heaven's universal reset says hi? Spacetime includes the past, present, and future, obviously, and the fact that MIH was even able to accelerate the universe to its natural end proves that the timeline can't be infinite, by definition.

and the reason why BtZ is High 3-A is also due to it also being capable to nuking even an hypotetical infinite sized universe as it's a time ability,

Made in Heaven also proves the universe is spatially finite through the fact the original universe is shown to follow the oscillating universe argument. Y'know, Big Crunch that then forms into an infinitely-dense, but still finite in mass, singularity that then creates the entire universe from said singularity. You also have to consider the infinite activation speed argument for something like, let's say, The World.

thus should be able to affect all the possible space regardless of its size, due to Araki saying that time abilities in Jojo affect all the space, and are stated to have irrelevant range multiple times from WoG.

“Irrelevant range” doesn't mean infinite or unmeasurable, It just means their range isn't applicable because they’re stopping time for the whole universe. Your argument works off the basis that the universe itself has no bounds when MIH tells us otherwise.

 

[Chariot190]

Someone like Yoshikage Kira with Bites The Dust, when using his ability to blow up approximately 1 hour of time, would be blowing up unimaginably many snapshots in doing so. Instead of needing INFINITE energy to do so, he’d need a MASSIVE but FINITE amount of energy to do so.

Also this is wrong based on how we rate fractions of time. Even 1 second is High 3-A.

The only way BTD wouldn't be High 3-A, is if it blew up only a singular snippet, but it doesn't, it blows up an hour, which by our standards is High 3-A. If it was an infinite universe, a single snippet from the geto go would be High 3-A fyi. If it was just a single snippet btw, it would be just 3-A due to the non-inf uni, but, well an hour isn't a single moment.

Which is to say.... No. Even if the JoJo universe isn't infinite in size, which, you know we don't treat the JoJo universe as Infinite spatially right? This wouldn't affect BTD and so on at all. The wiki treats any tangible timeframe as having infinite snap shots, you gotta go deal with that shit first, if you want to touch BTD at all.

“Irrelevant range” DOESN’T mean infinite or unmeasurable,
It just means their range DOESN’T MATTER BECAUSE they’re stopping time for the WHOLE universe.

"Range Irrelevant" isn't an actual term, you fell for the propaganda...
It's just what wiki's use to denote Stands that don't have one for some reason or another, they never actually call them that, or use that word in official material.

In actual context, what it's saying is the Stands in question simply aren't bound to physical distance, so, they do not have one. Unlike a Stand like say, Tenore sax, which has one of a few hundred meters, or even a Stand like Cream with an Infinite Pocket Space, King Crimson's ability is no longer constrained by distance, it simply bypasses that, affects time itself, which simply has the affect of affecting the whole world because the world is bound by time, and thus doesn't have one, as you pointed out, but, contrary to your intent, that just kinda makes them have effectively Infinite Range anyway?

Actually, you bring up a good point, that's what it would mean, given Infinite Range is actually something listed and brought up in the statistics, from BIG's own Infinite Range, or even something like SHA which is flatout stated to have Infinite Range while elaborating on its, well, range....

Infinite Range can, and is, quantified under the stats. Time based abilities, aren't, precisely because of that very fact.

This is whole CRT, is missing the forest for the trees.

Parsing the line too;
ザ・ワールド (Za Wārudo):
キング・クリムゾン (Kingu Kurimuzon):
の (no):

• Possessive particle, “of”.
• Here, it implies “like” or “in the manner of” in this context, connecting the stands mentioned to the next part of the sentence.

ように (yō ni):

• "よう" (yō): Like, resembling, in the manner of (the last two meanings obviously dont apply here).
• "に" (ni): Particle indicating direction or comparison.
• Together: "Like" (so "like [the dudes mentioned]")

時間 (jikan):

• "時間" (jikan): Time.
• The "brackets" (「」) are used to emphasize the word “time”.

に (ni):

• Particle indicating the target of the action. In this case, "time" is the target of the influence.

影響を与える (eikyō o ataeru):

• "影響" (eikyō): Influence or effect.
• "を" (o): Direct object marker, showing that “influence” is the object of the verb.
• "与える" (ataeru): To give, grant, or exert. (Obviously it doesn't mean "to give time" or "to grant time", remember, context is key in japanese).
• Together: "To exert influence" or "to affect."

スタンド (sutando):

• Stands, obviously.

は (wa):

• Topic particle, marking the subject of the sentence (in this case, stands that affect time itself).

射程距離 (shatei kyori):

• "射程" (shatei): Range, typically in the context of shooting or striking distance, think like a gun's shooting range. It means from Point A to B essentially.
• "距離" (kyori): Distance.
• Together: "Range distance."

を (o):

• Direct object marker, indicating that "range distance" is the object of the next verb.

持たない (motenai):

• "持つ" (motsu): To have, to hold.
• "ない" (nai): Negative suffix, meaning "not" or "do not."
• Together: "Do not have."

の (no):

• Nominalizing particle, used here to explain or assert the statement.

である (de aru):

• Formal phrase for "to be" or "is." Often used for emphasis or clarification in explanations.
• Together: "It is (that)."

• 時間に影響を与えるスタンド: "Stands that influence/affect time,"
  • This clarifies that these stands affect time, rather than just space or physical objects.
• は、射程距離を持たない: "Do not have a range distance,"
  • This explicitly states that these stands are not restricted by distance in terms of their ability to function.
• のである: "(It is that),"
  • This is an assertive ending, formalizing the explanation.

"The World and King Crimson, stands that influence 'time' do not have range distance, it is (so)."
Is a literal translation, no liberal wording taken to make it flow in english.

This means that the abilities of these stands, which manipulate time, are not limited by physical distance or range constraints. Yes, that is what it means, the specific term used for "range distance"


射程距離 (shatei kyori) primarily refers to physical distance in a three-dimensional sense, specifically how far something can reach or extend its influence. In most contexts, such as Jojo and the Stand Stats, it is used for tangible range or distance, such as:

• The range of a weapon (how far a bullet or arrow can travel)
• The reach of a punch or strike
• The operational range of something that exerts force or influence over a physical space

In the context of stands, 射程距離 refers to the effective physical distance over which a stand’s abilities can act. This typically means how far the stand or its powers can extend from the user and still remain functional or effective. For most stands, this is literal physical distance in three-dimensional space. Yet, where this statement is from, that being Standology, it's explaining that time based Stands, simply do not give a shit, they skip it entirely, time based abilities aren't confined to 3-Dimensional space.

You're arguing the opposite, that actually no, they are tied to it, as long as it's bigger than the JoJo's main universe (Yes main universe, JoJo has infinite sized dimensions, like the dark dimension), these abilities no longer confined to physical distance, will fail.

Now, obviously, we all knew this, and breaking it down might not like seem like much, but the context in which this is actually stated and explained, does matter, it's explaining how Stands abide by range and physical distance, whether it's Plat's 2m, those bound, or those with long range, and notes that the only two type of Stands that simply don't.

It's flatout saying Time based abilities' ranges aren't confined to physical spatio range. If we literally have Stands that have Infinite Range, explained in the same section, and then it denotes, "hey time based stands? They arent".

Think; do you really think King Crimson has less range as say, Black Sabbath?
Of course not, which is what it's saying.

Which is to say, ignoring how the MIH arc is super contradictory due to last minute changes anyway and doesn't actually say what you're saying, you're simply extrapolating, I really don't think that'd affect anything? Time based Stands, in context, aren't confined to 3Dimensional space, do not have an effective range, because they affect something even greater that the very world is embedded in and no longer bound by physical distance. literally just upscale them off SHA or something if need be if you wanna argue the actual jojoverse is finite, which is what we had it as anyway.

Made in Heaven's universal reset says hi? Spacetime includes the past, present, and future, obviously, and the fact that MIH was even able to accelerate the universe to its natural end proves that the timeline can't be infinite, by definition.

It also accelerates time to infinity.

“Irrelevant range” doesn't mean infinite or unmeasurable, It just means their range isn't applicable because they’re stopping time for the whole universe.

Not a real thing, don't conflate fanon into your CRT.

While I get the fact it's pretty long, to say it's quote-unquote "filled" with yapping, jokes, and memes is pretty out there honestly. It isn't like I'm making a joke every single paragraph you know.

My dude, the first quarter of your CRT is just a multiple choice with walls of text. That doesn;'t matter, just say what it qualifies under.

Is there a rule against longer CRTs?

Needlessly bloating stuff, a lil.

Saying half my CRT is bloated is a little much, don't you think?

I have now read it. Over half is bloated. Like come on man....

I made like, two half-hearted attempts at jokes, that's it. Excuse me for trying to be personable, especially since this is my first CRT here.

Dog, your first CRT is a cosmology fuckery for a major verse, I don't wanna be mean but, keep major stuff concise.

Look, I'm really, really, REALLY not trying to turn this into something it doesn't have to become... I know you're probably used to reading shorter CRTs, but this is just how I write, okay?

As above, don't inflate it.

I mean skim through what's "unnecessary" in your eyes, please don't put words in my mouth.

How would I know what's unnecesary unless I've read it?

If there's some yapping of mine you don't care for, skim it. If you find a joke unneeded, skip over it. Nobody's forcing you to read my CRT word for word.

Literally the rules. Common decency. What if there's relevant info amidst the yapping and I skipped it? I'd have to read it anyway. Shorten it for future readers.

 

[Chariot190]

Made in Heaven also proves the universe is spatially finite through the fact the original universe is shown to follow the oscillating universe argument. Y'know, Big Crunch that then forms into an infinitely-dense, but still finite in mass, singularity that then creates the entire universe from said singularity.

As said, doesn't matter, not why BTD is High 3-A.

You also have to consider the infinite activation speed argument for something like, let's say, The World.

No we don't? Not only are you the first person on this forum to ever string together the words "infinite activation speed The World", but that would affect literally nothing, true or not.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Made in Heaven's universal reset says hi? Spacetime includes the past, present, and future, obviously, and the fact that MIH was even able to accelerate the universe to its natural end proves that the timeline can't be infinite, by definition

You're essentially telling right now that the Jojo timeline is 3-A which is pure nonsense. We assume that even 1 second had infinite snapshots within them, as we're talking about uncountable infinity here.

Plus infinite speed characters reach the end of infinity like... All the time.

 

[FundamentalForce]

At this moment in time, I'm realizing I probably should've kept that MIH explanation in my first post. I had this whole thing that explained how MIH got to Infinite speed while maneuvering over the fact you can't reach infinity from finite numbers. Alas, what's done is done. I'll need a second to respond to the arguments you've posted.

 

[Chariot190]

At this moment in time, I'm realizing I probably should've kept that MIH explanation in my first post. I had this whole thing that explained how MIH got to Infinite speed while maneuvering over the fact you can't reach infinity from finite numbers. Alas, what's done is done. I'll need a second to respond to the arguments you've posted.

I mean, you'd be wrong anyway.
They explicitly state he hits infinity as part of the step, i even just checked the japanese for the **** of it. It doesnt matter if it doesnt make sense, wouldnt be the first time, it's what they say, it's implicated in the actual material, and the end of part 6 is dumb as shit anyway and was subject to last minute rewrites, if ya wanna use it at all, you ain't gonna get to cherry pick what for, it is what it is. Stand magic.

 

[FundamentalForce]

I mean, you'd be wrong anyway.

You're blunt and straight to the point, heh. I like it.

They explicitly state he hits infinity as part of the step, i even just checked the japanese for the **** of it.

In an interview with Hirohiko Araki titled “Stone Ocean Bunko Vol. 11” from February 2009., Araki states the following: "Time itself was getting faster and faster and outpacing human senses, approaching infinity itself, or at least as close to infinity as possible". Just grabbed that from the discussion thread

This isn't even getting into the B.I.G argument which, funnily enough, mirrors Pucci in a pretty big way. You see, we all know Notorious B.I.G. has an infinite speed stat, right? HOWEVER, he never actually reaches Infinite speed, he's just ABLE to. He can reach infinite speed as outlined in his stat, but he NEEDS an outside force to do so. Same with Pucci, but his outside force is the singularity itself. My explanation would've gone FAR more into this, but moving on.

It doesnt matter if it doesnt make sense,

...

wouldnt be the first time, it's what they say, it's implicated in the actual material, it is what it is.

...

Stand magic.

Well, I'd like a more...concrete answer than just "stand magic."

 

[FundamentalForce]

Also, who exactly is cherry-picking information?

 

[Chariot190]

But like, even in your own scan. You realize accelerating time to infinity is listed as a step before the end of the universe?

it doesn't say accelerating time infinitely, infinitely accelerates, etc endlessly, etc. It simply says it accelerating time to infinity. This affirms an end point, that being infinity itself. And this end point is the step before the end of the world.

You're blunt and straight to the point, heh. I like it.

In an interview with Hirohiko Araki titled “Stone Ocean Bunko Vol. 11” from February 2009., Araki states the following: "Time itself was getting faster and faster and outpacing human senses, approaching infinity itself, or at least as close to infinity as possible". Just grabbed that from the discussion thread

Yeah, and? He's wrong all the time about his own shit, he even admits to it, just because he backpedals doesn't mean the manga and even guides dont say otherwise. Bro realized he ****** up, of course, it IS dumb, but the **** up still exists and is canon though and is hammered in.

This isn't even getting into the B.I.G argument which, funnily enough, mirrors Pucci in a pretty big way. You see, we all know Notorious B.I.G. has an infinite speed stat, right? HOWEVER, he never actually reaches Infinite speed, he's just ABLE to.

This, literally doesn't matter. Ignoring the fact I said RANGE, not speed.

He has infinite speed, it's conveyed, listed, quantified, done under its own power, it's just dumb, doesn't change the fact he has it.

He can reach infinite speed as outlined in his stat, but he NEEDS an outside force to do so.

Incorrect actually, they state he simply uses his own speed to match and the overtake whatever. BIG doesnt actually copy one's speed, he's simply that fast to begin with, he's just limited by automated Stand weaknesses (dumb as shit and follows basic attack patterns). But, the Stand itself is simply that innately fast.

Same with Pucci, but his outside force is the singularity itself. My explanation would've gone FAR more into this, but moving on.

Dog, i don't want your explanation, I only care what the actual manga itself outlines, or what actual confirmed shit actually says. Extrapolation for all its worth, is still simply that.

Well, I'd like a more...concrete answer than just "stand magic."

Well, i don't got one, it's simply how it is. I'd like to know why Stands can punch you in the dick despite also simutaneously phasing, how can Plat beat Joseph's heart while also not being interactable in the first place in order to beat it to begin with? Makes no sense, but it is what it is.
How the **** did Killer Queen hide Stray Cat in his torso? He's invisible, shouldn't Hayato have seen a floating potted plant? yeah, he shouldve, he didnt though because ?????.
When they stop time, how do they move? Time is stopped? Particles should be frozen? everything around them should act as a solid wall? If they somehow moved, when time resumed, the whole universe should blow up due to the displacement in such an infintasmal fraction of a moment resulting in infinite energy?
Dude, it's just a manga, don't think to hard on it.

 

[Chariot190]

Also, who exactly is cherry-picking information?

You, apparently.
If you wanna use MIH, you gotta actually use all of it, in which case the raws flatout say to infinity (mugendai), and even uses a particle to denote it as a destination/end goal. He reaches infinity, before the end of the world.

You can't just ignore this. This lone fact renders the whole argument useless.

Edit: btw the actual raw is far less damning for the "interview".
There's actually an em dash in the raw.
The line, does not say "as close to infinity as possible", as an end point, it actually says "kangaeuru kagiri no mugen", or rather, the conceivable infinity. It's saying MIH accelerates time towards the limit of infinity, it approaches that very limit. And not just "approaches", but it is approaching it. It's not saying "oh he caps here", it's just him describing how MIH accelerates that shit not just to infinity, but the highest infinity. Which like.... Yeah that's how it works?

 

[FundamentalForce]

Alright, so before I respond to...ALL of that.

I'd like to ask either one of you an important question. So, just...humor me for a second.

"The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime."

We know this certainly applies to a temporally infinite universe, sure. However, what about a universe that has a set past, present, and ultimate demise in the future? I mean, logically, it's illogical to assume a finite line could hold infinitely many snapshots within itself, right?

What I get from what Chariot is saying is, even if a timeline IS finite in length, it'd still have infinite snapshots even if that's literally impossible... Am I getting this correctly?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What I get from what Chariot is saying is, even if a timeline IS finite in length, it'd still have infinite snapshots even if that's literally impossible... Am I getting this correctly?

It's how this wiki does things though.

In a way, yes, though not how most would think when using this word. Basically, an arbitrary object of dimension n is essentially comprised by the total sum of uncountably infinite objects of one dimension less, which may be described as lower-dimensional "slices", each corresponding to one of the infinite points of a line. For instance, a square is made of infinitely many line segments (Lined up on the y-axis), a cube of infinitely many squares (Lined up on the z-axis), and so on.

 

[Chariot190]

What I get from what Chariot is saying is, even if a timeline IS finite in length, it'd still have infinite snapshots even if that's literally impossible... Am I getting this correctly?

Even 1 second is infinite snapshots. That's, just how the wiki works.
Youre conflating uncountable infinity with countable infinity. Youre also conflating orders of infinity.

Like, hate to break it to you man, that ain't me yapping, it's the very wiki, go change that first before you like, even attempt to continue this. Otherwise there's nothing for me to say besides shrug sucks.

All JoJo being infinite in size would do, is making BTD Infinity 3D x Infinity, as opposed to Finite 3D x Infinity. Would not effect it being High 3-A tho.

 

[FundamentalForce]

Huh, well... If it's what the wiki says, then I suppose I can't do anything about it right now without an already agreed upon staff discussion in hand.

In any case, I guess this CRT's currently dead in the water.

Shame too, I actually thought I cooked up something actually viable.

I mean, I could go back and forth trying to argue the validity of MIH's acceleration concerning the universe as a whole, but I have a gut feeling that'd go nowhere fast.

 

[Chariot190]

i mean, it doesn't matter. Like, man, we already don't treat the main Jojo universe as infinite (Again, main, because infinite sized dimensions do exist elsewhere, several have statements, we just have no hard statement for the main one. Well I guess you could stretch a few being parallel dimensions to implicate them being parallel yet infinite would imply what it's parallel to is infinite too, kind of like Dark and Light World from Zelda but eh, I wouldn't go that far without more evidence).
Your "main" prospect, that being the jojo uni isn't infinite in size, is ALREADY accepted, and not just JoJo,
all verses on the wiki, by default, are assumed to be NOT infinite. You need a statement or something before that's to be the case.

The thing is, this doesn't actually change anything, everything is the way it is in spite of it being finite in size and in some cases, don't matter at all either way like with BTD or King Crimson due to how we treat fractions of time.

 

[FundamentalForce]

Alright, alright... I get your point...

In hindsight, I probably should've curbed my enthusiasm and aimed for a... easier target than the entire cosmology.

Believe it or not, I have a document in the works that talks about stands being changed to be actual psychic energy GENERATED from the user's fighting spirit, rather than being the user's fighting spirit itself.

 

[FundamentalForce]

It's certainly not foolproof yet, I still need to gather more evidence and contradictions, but when it is. I have a feeling it'll go better than...this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Believe it or not, I have a document in the works that talks about stands being changed to be actual psychic energy GENERATED from the user's fighting spirit, rather than being the user's fighting spirit itself.

...what would it even change

 

[Demifiend]

Believe it or not, I have a document in the works that talks about stands being changed to be actual psychic energy GENERATED from the user's fighting spirit, rather than being the user's fighting spirit itself.

What is the difference?

 

[FundamentalForce]

...what would it even change

Well, for one, stands would completely lose their +1 Extrasensory Perception and Non-Physical Interaction.

 

[FundamentalForce]

Even without a CRT that changes the nature of stands, the reasoning given is ******* stupid.

 

[Chariot190]

Believe it or not, I have a document in the works that talks about stands being changed to be actual psychic energy GENERATED from the user's fighting spirit, rather than being the user's fighting spirit itself.

Yeah you're like, I'm just gonna be blunt, this isn't gonna end well when we were just told they're the manifestation of the soul like a few weeks ago, 4 times in the past year, 8 times since the early part 6 scan you're very evidently talking about that doesn't actually say what you think it does in the raw and just means a supernatural vision in the manga (Part 8 has my favorite one), etc.

Edit: Forgot JoJo mag.

Well, for one, stands would completely lose their +1 Extrasensory Perception and Non-Physical Interaction.

You're not even being subtle now.

 

[FundamentalForce]

What? He asked what would be changed, so I told him.

But since you clearly have objections, I'll hit you with, let's say, ONE listed contradiction from my document that goes against the idea of stands JUST being "manifestations of the user's fighting spirit".

Trust me, it'll be easy to answer...or will it?

 

[Chariot190]

Uh, yeah, super easy, given even if you have an actual contradiction, it won't matter, you'd need literally 48 contradictions to break even.
And then still be wrong because we got a statement saying a Stand is the soul taken form not that long ago so even if they did change it, it'd be changed back.

 

[FundamentalForce]

Uh, yeah, super easy, given even if you have an actual contradiction, it won't matter, you'd need literally 48 contradictions to break even.
And then still be wrong because we got a statement saying a Stand is the soul taken form not that long ago so even if they did change it, it'd be changed back.

On second thought...

You seem pretty confident, so instead, let's try something else.

What makes you believe it'd be changed back at all? I mean, if it DOES pass, which IT WILL. There'd be no room for any counterarguments after the fact, especially not from ONE flimsy statement against a mountain of sound reasoning.

 

[FundamentalForce]

In fact, since this CRT's getting pretty off-topic as it is...

Why don't you slide me those "48" statements on Discord, just so I can debunk each and every one of them in my next CRT?

Gotta be prepared, right?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can we close this? OP already conceded on why this is wrong.

 

[Demifiend]

Why don't you slide me those "48" statements on Discord, just so I can debunk each and every one of them in my next CRT?

Discord

 

[Chariot190]

On second thought...

You seem pretty confident, so instead, let's try something else.

What makes you believe it'd be changed back at all?

Because there's a billion explicit statements not subject to debate and I can gurantee 90% of whatever youre looking at, isnt actually real but just liberty in translation.

I mean, if it DOES pass, which IT WILL.

Like this one?

There'd be no room for any counterarguments after the fact, especially not from ONE flimsy statement against a mountain of sound reasoning.

Uh, I'm not talking about you, or this wiki. I'm talking about the actual media. Even if, for a time, it was changed, it has been explicitly retconned back.
Unless you have statements from literally this month yapping about....
And flimsy? "A Stand is the main body's soul given form", I don't really think a statement like that is flimsy, do you?
And "sound reasoning", let's make this perfectly clear, headcanon, extrapolation, etc, nobody gives a damn about that. We don't want arguments, you could argue anything if you tried hard enough, no, what matters, is what's actually said and stated.

I know damn well there doesn't exist a mountain of evidence, there's literally two that implicate it, every other possible one, is just the usual fan translation fuckery and liberty as I've went out of my way to check all them before.
Like, as one of many, many examples.


Wow psychic? Wrong.


"seishin" is the term used, which refers to "spirit," not fighting spirit mind you. Psychic or even a word comparable to that, isn't mentioned anywhere at all.
Fortunately we know what it means, because they elaborate bunch.

Additionally, japanese has specific words for "spirit", we'd know what type of spirit it's talking about, there's no semantics here, I pray you've actually parsed all the raws before going on about this.

In fact, since this CRT's getting pretty off-topic as it is...

Why don't you slide me those "48" statements on Discord, just so I can debunk each and every one of them in my next CRT?

Gotta be prepared, right?

No? Honestly if you were chill sure but, you're kind of obnoxious?
Like that isn't how you ask for shit, especially the direct opposition? What makes you think your CRT will pass? Hell, I wouldn't even need to slide shit if people chilled out, this shit would be on the profiles.

As an aside, you know literally everyone knows it's you right?

Now, I'm not doing this any longer, CRT done, over with, but like, you could try to be more subtle with your agenda.

 

[Da3ggman]

Bro included a whole ass trivia question . This ain’t a game show my mans, it’s a CRT; you gotta learn to trim down the fat lol.

Anyways, seems like this has been thoroughly debunked, so count me as disagreeing.

 

[Demifiend]

Well, for one, stands would completely lose their +1 Extrasensory Perception and Non-Physical Interaction.

Now that i think about it, stands have 1+ EP and NPI for a completely different reason than what you're arguing.
They have that shit because ghosts can't perceive and interact with a stand iirc

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

In fact, since this CRT's getting pretty off-topic as it is...

Why don't you slide me those "48" statements on Discord, just so I can debunk each and every one of them in my next CRT?

Gotta be prepared, right?

bro tryna duck to discord hop back on vsbw bro.

Anyways I disagree with this thread already. Has flimsy reasoning as outlined by the others and Chariot.

 

[Animus-sama]

Based on the discussions above, I think I will not agree with this revision.