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JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Discussion Thread IV: Diamond is Unbreakable

Lynieryz said:
True, I never stopped to notice that in the manga he erases time and basically the universe tries to fill in what he erased while in the anime he doesn't erase time but rather removes himself from time.
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I have my own explanation for what's happening in the anime specifically, but could you go into a little more detail on your explanation of "removing himself from time"?
 
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
I have my own explanation for what's happening in the anime specifically, but could you go into a little more detail on your explanation of "removing himself from time"?
Click to expand...
It's nothing very complex, what happens is that time continues to exist for everyone except for himself, he becomes a spectator who is outside of time itself and can decide when to be part of it again, well at least that's what it looked like to me.
 
Lynieryz said:
It's nothing very complex, what happens is that time continues to exist for everyone except for himself, he becomes a spectator who is outside of time itself and can decide when to be part of it again, well at least that's what it looked like to me.
Click to expand...
Huh, that description really is different from my own, but given David Production's not-so little visual fuckup. Different interpretations of King Crimson's ability would obviously come up between watchers of the anime. The question is, if King Crimson isn't truly erasing time in the anime, then what is he doing instead? My third CRT will cover this topic in it's entirety, revolving around my own conclusions about what's actually happening within Time Erasure in the adaptation. I'll also be shooting down a new interpretation that King Crimson's only erasing memories and perceptions...which is...completely wrong... Although, given my last two CRT's haven't had any success with passing, I'll probably end up running my thoughts by all of you here first before I post anything. Hopefully through that, I'll get some supporters so I can get my third CRT to actually pass.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Just curious. Which do ya'll prefer? Hamon or Spin?
Click to expand...
Spin most definitely, it gave us Tusk Act 4. While it doesn't have my favorite ability for a stand ever, that goes to GER. I do think it has the strongest main Jojo stand design by far. Hamon...basically became useless after stands came into the picture, and that's about it...
 
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
Huh, that description really is different from my own, but given David Production's not-so little visual fuckup. Different interpretations of King Crimson's ability would obviously come up between watchers of the anime. The question is, if King Crimson isn't truly erasing time in the anime, then what is he doing instead? My third CRT will cover this topic in it's entirety, revolving around my own conclusions about what's actually happening within Time Erasure in the adaptation. I'll also be shooting down a new interpretation that King Crimson's only erasing memories and perceptions...which is...completely wrong... Although, given my last two CRT's haven't had any success with passing, I'll probably end up running my thoughts by all of you here first before I post anything. Hopefully through that, I'll get some supporters so I can get my third CRT to actually pass.
Click to expand...
Well, with the explanation not matching the visuals, the possible interpretations are basically infinite.

if King Crimson isn't truly erasing time in the anime, then what is he doing instead?
Click to expand...
For me, It's what I said before, KC is removing his user from the timeline., making him a spectator.
 
SlendVeny said:
Spin literally gave Gyro the ability to generate a Stand spontaneously.
Click to expand...
Ball Breaker...? Ball Breaker isn't Gyro's stand specifically, it's simply the manifestation of infinite rotational energy through the Steel Ball itself. Techinally, as long as you have as much experience with the spin as Gyro would in the JJBA verse, you could manifest Ball Breaker... But I know what your trying to say, Ball Breaker was an asspull, right? The spin, however, was built up over an entire part with Johnny and Gyro at it's helm. Johnny developed his use of it through his stand, and Gyro taught him how to use said developments in new, more powerful ways over the course of Steel Ball Run.
 
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
Ball Breaker...? Ball Breaker isn't Gyro's stand specifically, it's simply the manifestation of infinite rotational energy through the Steel Ball itself.
Click to expand...
I never said it was his Stand
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
Techinally, as long as you have as much experience with the spin as Gyro would in the JJBA verse, you could manifest Ball Breaker... But I know what your trying to say, Ball Breaker was an asspull, right?
Click to expand...
Yes. That's what I'm saying.
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
The spin, however, was built up over an entire part with Johnny and Gyro at it's helm. Johnny developed his use of it through his stand, and Gyro taught him how to use said developments in new, more powerful ways over the course of Steel Ball Run.
Click to expand...
That's literally what happened in Phantom Blood.
 
SlendVeny said:
I never said it was his Stand

Yes. That's what I'm saying.

That's literally what happened in Phantom Blood.
Click to expand...
Again, Hamon never had limits established at all to what it could do, while the spin had clear limits for those who were still learning like Johnny. Gyro didn't have those hard limits to his use of the spin because of his own mastery. Jonathan...learned Hamon in basically two weeks and uses it like he's a master. I know natural affinity and all that, but come on... What I'm really trying to say is though is that I really wish Phantom Blood was longer... While I understand that it's supposed to tie in with Battle Tendency, I just don't feel like we as an audience got to spend enough time with Johanthan on his journey. 3 more episodes would've really helped heavily for pacing, but that's just my opinion.
 
I wonder if Spin proficiency will always result in the Ball Breaker or is the BB the result of having Spin proficiency specifically with a ball and having Spin proficiency through other things would result in different manifestations. Example: a guy who has a lot of experience using Spin through the wind will achieve BB or a different manifestation?
 
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
Again, Hamon never had limits established at all to what it could do, while the spin had clear limits for those who were still learning like Johnny. Gyro didn't have those hard limits to his use of the spin because of his own mastery. Jonathan...learned Hamon in basically two weeks and uses it like he's a master. I know natural affinity and all that, but come on... What I'm really trying to say is though is that I really wish Phantom Blood was longer... While I understand that it's supposed to tie in with Battle Tendency, I just don't feel like we as an audience got to spend enough time with Johanthan on his journey. 3 more episodes would've really helped heavily for pacing, but that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...
Jonathan was explicitly stated to be a practicing constantly, and his Hamon had limits anyone.
 
Lynieryz said:
I wonder if Spin proficiency will always result in the Ball Breaker or is the BB the result of having Spin proficiency specifically with a ball and having Spin proficiency through other things would result in different manifestations. Example: a guy who has a lot of experience using Spin through the wind will achieve BB or a different manifestation?
Click to expand...
It's a manifestation of the Spin of the Steel Ball
 
Lynieryz said:
So could the guy in the example I gave achieve a different manifestation through the wind? Or does just the steel ball result in a manifestation?
Click to expand...
Pretty much any stand can manifest from a talent, it just kinda depends on your soul, so even if the method were the same there'd probably be differences.

It's kinda like how HP and Jonathan's stand are both Hamon stands, but HP breaks a camera while TP doesn't (we should normalize calling Jonathan's stand The Passion btw, pretty good fan name + it's in jorge joestar so)
 
Don't bother with that King Crimson CRT. Not because it's wrong, but the fact we already accept the fact he literally deletes time. You don't need to prove he does and isn't just deleting perception.

You could do a blog explaining it though if you want.
 
Chariot190 said:
Don't bother with that King Crimson CRT. Not because it's wrong, but the fact we already accept the fact he literally deletes time. You don't need to prove he does and isn't just deleting perception.

You could do a blog explaining it though if you want.
Click to expand...
"Well, we all know King Crimson erases time in the manga, that much is for absolute certain and anybody who argues otherwise shouldn't be taken seriously in any fashion. However, while the manga correctly shows this happening with everybody who isn't Diavolo never actually moving at all within Time Erase, fated juxtapositions filling the gap between the first and last "frames" of time so to speak. The anime doesn't follow this concept, visually speaking, instead having people MOVE, yes, actually MOVE PHYSICALLY in period of erased time with red tellings of their future selves laid out infront of Diavolo's eyes... Here's why that's heavily problematic, especially when we're dealing with time that's been erased. Within time erasure as a basic concept, time as a rate of change should be completely halted for someone that remains within said time that's been erased. No physical progression can happen of course, as there's simply no time for said physical progression to occur. The manga shows how actual time erasure should work, the anime does not for whatever reason even if the source material was right there."
I was talking about how David Production's, while keeping the original diologue from the manga, messed with what was visually shown on screen so much. I was thinking that a separate page for the anime and manga need to be made, in Diavolo's case at least.
 
CBslayeR said:
I think Jotaro beats Diavolo 6:4 thoughts?
Click to expand...
That...depends heavily on which Jotaro your talking about? We talking about Part 3 Jotaro, Part 4 Jotaro, or Part 6 Jotaro (Pre-coma or Post-coma Foddertaro)?
If it's part 3 Jotaro, then...King Crimson gets blitzed pretty badly... Wait, here me out first before you say anything... My part two to my second CRT, if it actually passed, would've explained that the Silver Chariot vs Diavolo feat out in detail. Of course, due to Silver Chariot slicing at Diavolo and him disappearing, then attacking Polnareff is, at least on paper, an easy MFTL feat. However, all isn't exactly how it seems...
 
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
"Well, we all know King Crimson erases time in the manga, that much is for absolute certain and anybody who argues otherwise shouldn't be taken seriously in any fashion. However, while the manga correctly shows this happening with everybody who isn't Diavolo never actually moving at all within Time Erase, fated juxtapositions filling the gap between the first and last "frames" of time so to speak. The anime doesn't follow this concept, visually speaking, instead having people MOVE, yes, actually MOVE PHYSICALLY in period of erased time with red tellings of their future selves laid out infront of Diavolo's eyes... Here's why that's heavily problematic, especially when we're dealing with time that's been erased. Within time erasure as a basic concept, time as a rate of change should be completely halted for someone that remains within said time that's been erased. No physical progression can happen of course, as there's simply no time for said physical progression to occur. The manga shows how actual time erasure should work, the anime does not for whatever reason even if the source material was right there."
I was talking about how David Production's, while keeping the original diologue from the manga, messed with what was visually shown on screen so much. I was thinking that a separate page for the anime and manga need to be made, in Diavolo's case at least.
Click to expand...
Then there's the constant walking on the ground within Time Erase in the anime, and Diavolo walking behind a literal piller WITHIN time erasure in the anime. Why they decided to include that is beyond me, but it wasn't in the manga. Cool points aside for reveals and such, if time actually WAS being erased in the anime, this would've never been able to happen.
 
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
That...depends heavily on which Jotaro your talking about? We talking about Part 3 Jotaro, Part 4 Jotaro, or Part 6 Jotaro (Pre-coma or Post-coma Foddertaro)?
If it's part 3 Jotaro, then...King Crimson gets blitzed pretty badly... Wait, here me out first before you say anything... My part two to my second CRT, if it actually passed, would've explained that the Silver Chariot vs Diavolo feat out in detail. Of course, due to Silver Chariot slicing at Diavolo and him disappearing, then attacking Polnareff is, at least on paper, an easy MFTL feat. However, all isn't exactly how it seems...
Click to expand...
Not a member of the calc group, so take this interpretation as you will. Also, mainly focuing on the anime, not the manga, so...

Polnareff summoned a prime Silver Chariot, because of the unknown amount of adventures he went on with Jotaro after Part 3, while injured to try and attack Diavolo as they neared the end of their first meeting. We know this is a manual usage case due to the complexity of the actions Silver Chariot is performing and the lack of any commands from Polnareff like "There!" or "Now!". Eyeballing it with the ever-trusty framebyframe website, it appears that Diavolo and Polnareff are about...5 Polnareff's away from each other. Throwing that into a calc I somehow deleted so I can't copy it here, and counting off the second it took for Silver Chariot to move infront of Diavolo. That's around ~subsonic speeds for Silver Chariot in this instance, but that's just off eyeballing, so again, take that as you will. Looking at the sword swing, it's about a meter or so that Silver Chariot swung his sword in 0.01 seconds or 10 milliseconds. That's again... around subsonic speeds. Now, that's not impressive at all, nor is basically gouging out Polnareff's eye due to the fact we know King Crimson's ability commonly leaves people who experience it for the first time disoriented and confused by it's own nature. Attacking Polnareff again to mortally wound him before Silver Chariot can retaliate is a little impressive, but finishing somebody off after they're already badly wounded kinda downplays this a little. Now, you might be asking.

*Didn't Diavolo preemptively activate his ability mid-swing from Silver Chariot?

No, he activated it while Silver Chariot was coming upto him, far before the stand actually swung on him with it's rapier. I don't know if this is the case in the manga due to the obvious lack of movement, but it is in the anime, so correct me if I'm wrong in the manga's case, but King Crimson's ability does have a bit of startup lag early on in the anime. Shown during Bruno's short battle with the stand especially, Sticky Finger's fist doesn't actually go through his head until the long red flashing is fully off the screen, indicating his ability is fully activated. This specific red flashing across the screen gets cut down to a quick blip even in the time skip Diavolo used right after he gouged out Polnareff's eye, so I don't know what happened her specifically. Diavolo got extremely lucky though, becoming intangible the literal millisecond before Silver Chariot's sword would've dealt a fatal blow to him. Anyway, Diavolo obviously time skips and cuts Polnareff down to size, ending their first actual encounter battle.

*Well, even if this doesn't look great, we still have Diavolo's first-class speed statement, right?

Yeah, we have that, but we also have the implied information from the actual battle leading upto what we see of Diavolo and Polnareff. What do we know, you might ask?

1. This was a long and drawn out battle, no doubt about that. Polnareff and Diavolo both got to the cliff, more a feat on Polnareff's part for evading King Crimson until then due to said "first-class speed", but more on that later.

2. When Diavolo appears, he 100 percent intends to kill you in person. There's no real debate on this, if Diavolo shows up in person, he fully intends on ending your life himself ASAP. Not a point really, just a little fact he even states himself directly.

3. Diavolo nor King Crimson have taken a lick of damage from this "fight", so THIS MUST MEAN that King Crimson successfully evaded Silver Chariot's blade while wounding Polnareff directly. Of course Polnareff was fighting for his life, and didn't just let Diavolo outright harm him without trying to attack back. This feat is all the more impressive when you consider point 4.

4. DIAVOLO DID NOT ERASE TIME ONCE before actually erasing time to get behind Polnareff to finish their fight. This is proven when Polnareff quickly understands that Diavolo's skipping time, good job Polnareff! Didn't save you from getting crippled, but still... In any case, Polnareff never notes that he skipped time again or he dissappeared AGAIN. Before somebody brings up Epitaph more than likely predicted Silver Chariot's defensive swings while they fought. Epitaph, when used in a direct fashion without time erase accompanying it, is USELESS unless you have the necessary reaction speeds and movement speeds to avoid attacks. If an attack occurs before Diavolo can even perceive it, or before Diavolo can understand the vision Epitaph provides and act accordingly, he's basically shit out of luck.

5. Diavolo, although showing no real reaction at all to his arm being sliced, WASN'T able to come out of the darkness to attack Polnareff before Silver Chariot made it's own move. I'd say Silver Chariot was definitely automatically controlled in this moment due to the specific simplicity of the action, and the speed at which it was performed as well as Polnareff's own command in the form of NOW. This would be MFTL for reference. While luck WAS definitely a strong factor here, even by Polnareff's own admission, requring he spot Diavolo within an extremely, extremely short time frame before he could use King Crimson to attack. Like Where's Waldo, but for your life... Moving on, Diavolo compliments Polnareff on his speed before giving him a good-ole Superman high-five just like Joker got in Injustice. Where was I at, oh yeah. So, Diavolo, while among the fastest stands, shouldn't really be categorized among the absolute fastest of the verse like Jotaro, DIO, and Silver Chariot when it's being automatically controlled. An entire part upscales off him after all, so...I was actually thinking he should probably be moved down a couple tiers... Definitely FTL due to the statement of being in the top-tiers, as well as what I explained about his first encounter with Polnareff.

Reading this back, I just realized that I really wrote out an entire CRT's worth of information... Wow...
 
By the by, the manga version of this feat has a much, much stronger case for MFTL. While Silver Chariot still had to cover a set distance to slash at Diavolo, Diavolo did, nevertheless, activate King Crimson mid-slash from Silver Chariot. A potential manual usage this may be, it's still exceedingly impressive. So, here's my own opinion on what new speed readings should be on both profiles, assuming King Crimson's anime and manga profiles get split.

Anime King Crimson:
(At least FTL, potentially higher)

Manga King Crimson:
(At least FTL, potentially higher)

I was gonna have manga King Crimson's profile specify MFTL as a higher speed rating, but the later Silver Chariot slashing feat with a crippled Polnareff still happened in the manga. So, I can't really see his profile specifically adding a potential to be MFTL.
 
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
Explain? I just don't see enough evidence for a solid MFTL rating, at least in the anime's case, especially when again, an entire part and it's main cast upscales off him and only him from this specific encounter with Polnareff.
Click to expand...
Honestly, the farthest I can see King Crimson's anime speed rating going is being changed into one that mirror's Part 4 Jotaro.
(At least FTL, likely MFTL)
 
Wavingthroughawindow999 said:
"Well, we all know King Crimson erases time in the manga, that much is for absolute certain and anybody who argues otherwise shouldn't be taken seriously in any fashion. However, while the manga correctly shows this happening with everybody who isn't Diavolo never actually moving at all within Time Erase, fated juxtapositions filling the gap between the first and last "frames" of time so to speak. The anime doesn't follow this concept, visually speaking, instead having people MOVE, yes, actually MOVE PHYSICALLY in period of erased time with red tellings of their future selves laid out infront of Diavolo's eyes... Here's why that's heavily problematic, especially when we're dealing with time that's been erased. Within time erasure as a basic concept, time as a rate of change should be completely halted for someone that remains within said time that's been erased. No physical progression can happen of course, as there's simply no time for said physical progression to occur. The manga shows how actual time erasure should work, the anime does not for whatever reason even if the source material was right there."
I was talking about how David Production's, while keeping the original diologue from the manga, messed with what was visually shown on screen so much. I was thinking that a separate page for the anime and manga need to be made, in Diavolo's case at least.
Click to expand...
Not enough, the standards for alt canon profiles is kind of strict. Over 99% of viewers wouldn't even pick up on a difference, isn't a good sign for it it's eligible.

Dio unironically probably the only anime canon character who differs enough and that's because he has like 5-10+ different abilities and stats.

And King Crimson is solidly MFTL, being tagged by a MFTL chariot, due to said character having a decade to figure out a potential counter, failing, and then admitting he'd never land an attack on him ever again, doesn't change the fact he reacted to a 90s Chariot attack, mutilated him, and is explicitly noted to have First-Class speed (as in, he's up there with the fastest stands to ever exist).
 
I wonder if there's an in canon reason why stands from the 80's-90's are so physically busted compared to later generations, besides "Araki got more creative"
 
AnAverageUsername said:
I wonder if there's an in canon reason why stands from the 80's-90's are so physically busted compared to later generations, besides "Araki got more creative"
Click to expand...
The people we see back then just happen to have a stronger spirit.

Like compare the guy who puts a lock on you to a literal assassin who's been through decades of hardship.

Then there's Diavolo's special case of having 2 souls, so that's probably why his stand is absurdly strong.
 
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