John Wick Speed Downgrade

[XING06]

Ok so we have John Wick at Supersonic combat/reactions right now for dodging bullets at close range.

The issue is he doesn't. He either starting moving beforehand, grapples so they can't hit him, blocks with his jacket, or actually gets shot. The only one that might work is when Cassian runs him over then shoots at him, but even then if you slow it down he's already moving for cover by that time.

There's nothing in the linked videos that demonstrates supersonic speeds. At best, his feats mirror Nolan's Batman, making him subsonic at the very very most. Are there any feats that actually demonstrate supersonic?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah I don't think he has anything that really implies more than athletic or peak human speeds.

 

[XING06]

I actually checked and I think KLO506 might have changed his speed without an upgrade thread. But yeah he definitely should be peak human.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to change back the speed and to give KLOL506 a warning then.

 

[XING06]

OK thanks Ant. I'll check one more time to see if I missed an upgrade thread somewhere then revert.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Skylietz]

yeah, many people here doesn't know about Aim-Dodging, aside from John, there are plenty other profiles with the same mistake.

I vote Athletic for his overall speed

 

[XING06]

Yeah so there was apparently a short upgrade thread. I missed it the first time cuz it started off as a joke thread. What do you guys think about Superhuman combat speed? The previous speed brought up a car dodging feat and how he shouldn't be worse than real life fighters.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Only official content revision or staff forum threads should be used for upgrades though, and only after the staff has accepted them.

 

[XING06]

Oh OK. So we should still revert to Peak Human for now. What do you think about Superhuman combat speed though?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, what would the reasonings be for such speeds? Dodging cars with prior knowledge is something people in real life can do. If you're bringing up the punching speed of say, a pro-boxer, then that still isn't superhuman combat speed. Pro-martial artists can't dodge another punch from someone of a similar skill level without good prior body movement, guessing when to dodge, and reading their opponent. So at most I would support a Rocky-esq speed rating with his unarmed attack speed being above his body movement speed, but only if he has explicit statements/evidence backing that sort of martial arts experience.

 

[Antvasima]

Qawsedf makes sense.

 

[XING06]

You are correct in that fighting requires more than pure reaction speed, but then it gets into the issue of how we define combat speed in this wiki.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yes, and like I said, those martial artists would be incapable of dodging such attacks without adequate preparation. Those people you mentioned are hit multiple times every single fight. They're not avoiding every single blow, because it just isn't possible. If Wick has statements that support he knows a style that usually gets into the superhuman range (speed wise) then it's fine for an unarmed attack speed upgrade. But his general body/combat speed has no evidence beyond athletic or peak human afaik.

. If we only used the speed which a character can react to through pure reaction time, then we would have to downgrade literally all of our profiles' combat speeds. Our combat speed is defined at speed they can fight at, thus Rocky should actually have Superhuman combat not attack speed, as they demonstrate they can fight at that speed.

But they cannot fight at those speeds. Avoiding blows after they've started from a dead position just isn't possible. They have to be proactive with their dodging attempts. Wick has no evidence that he can move his entire body as fast as he can throw out a punch or kick. He's hit melee wise decently often as well.

 

[XING06]

Yeah he definitely gets hit quite often. It's actually pretty funny though in the case of Rocky because no real fighter should be able to take that many hits.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I've counted how many times Rocky has been hit for a RT I've made of him. In every single fight he gets punched well over 100 times. That isn't fighting at his punching speed or reacting super well. It's doing what boxer's IRL do, try and read your opponent and dodge/block before they throw the punch as it's not possible to do that afterwards.

Wick has no evidence that his body movement speed is on the same level as his striking speed. Same with Rocky. Punching fast =/= moving as fast. Especially when they're hit a lot, especially when their speed in this case is recursive IRL scaling, and especially when they have no evidence of moving as fast as they punch.

Now as I've said before, peak human with superhuman combat speed is completely fine in my view. But not just superhuman. It's just incorrect without a hard feat backing it up.

 

[XING06]

Oh yeah I've got no problem with that. Looks like we've had a bit of miscommunication, that was actually what I was proposing as well: Peak Human with Superhuman combat speed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He'd be rated the same way the various Rocky boxers are.

 

[XING06]

Ok then looks like we're good.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Barring any other possible issues, I think it's fine to apply the "Athletic Human, Superhuman attack speed" or "Peak Human,Superhuman attack speed". I don't like labelling people peak human without feats or statements though.

 

[XING06]

Honestly we can just stick with peak human. That's what we did for Bourne and Sam Fisher

 

[Assembled1801]

Will his reaction speed be Subsonic since he dodged a bullet point blank from the Sumo assassin? Wick should need Subsonic+ to Supersonic+ attack speed with firearms.

 

[Cropfist]

Someone should summon KLOL here, since they did the upgrade.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Will his reaction speed be Subsonic since he dodged a bullet point blank from the Sumo assassin?

Why would he need to be subsonic? Assuming the dodge was preformed before the bullet already fired. Do you have the scene in question?

Wick should need Subsonic+ to Supersonic+ attack speed with firearms.

No problem with that. Though if you're adding firearm ratings your need to add AP for his various guns as well.

 

[Assembled1801]

Will his reaction speed be Subsonic since he dodged a bullet point blank from the Sumo assassin?

Why would he need to be subsonic? Assuming the dodge was preformed before the bullet already fired. Do you have the scene in question?

John Wick Chapter 2 (2017) - Pencil Kill Scene (6 10) Movieclips

At 1:04

John Wick Chapter 2 (2017) - Museum Fight Scene (8 10) Movieclips

0:57

 

[Qawsedf234]

I watched them frame by frame on this site. In stop motion you can see in both instances that he moved before the gun ever fired. Its aim dodging.

 

[Assembled1801]

Hmm, so aim dodging is peak human speed, right?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I wouldn't say so. But even if it was, Wick had okay-ish amount of time in both cases to react to the gun. It supports athletic human if nothing else.

 

[Assembled1801]

Some of the John Wick's enemies (including fodders) misses many shots alot. But what about the musuem scene at 0:57?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Watching frame by frame the bullets missed Jon every time and he only reacted/began to move after the second shot. Its a combination of bad aiming and knowing how to avoid the enemy's aim.

 

[Assembled1801]

I think I agree with that. Should I edit his attack speed? Oh and what about his vanish feat in Chapter 3?

 

[Qawsedf234]

You can add tiers and speeds for his weapons. His base physical speed probably needs more discussion though.

 

[KLOL506]

I guess there's nothing left for me to do here then.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You can edit the profile's speed I guess. Assuming you have no issue with the proposed rating of "At least Athletic Human, Superhuman attack speed".

 

[KLOL506]

Works.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Actually since I have all of the Wick people's attention, anyone mind explaining his lifting strength rating? Because from what I'm getting none of his justications actually work for that level.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Anyone got a video of the mentioned scene on his lifting strength? None of it sounds that high.

 

[KLOL506]

Snapping necks, which requires 1250 lbs of force, but this required John to put more effort, so I'm kinda iffy on this.

He also briefly staggered an overweight sumo assassin, so Peak Human is probably fine, since he can casually flip people without even trying.

Pretty sure there were videos of him sending heavily armored High Table soldiers flying by tossing a gun at their heads, I wonder why that was removed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

"At least Peak Human" or "Peak Human" fits better than "At least Class 1" in my opinion.

 

[KLOL506]

At least '''Peak Human''' seems okay IMHO. That was the original rating before Class 1 came to be. Not to mention John was stronger in his prime.