Jiren's New Feats and "Transcending Time"

[Reppuzan]

So (as expected for Dragon Ball Super), Jiren's latest showings have generated an uproar and more users are clamoring than ever to raise Jiren, Goku and Hit to Low 2-C.

The problem is how we actually go about this.

Here's the statement in which Vados says, "He is far beyond comprehension. This means that Jiren possesses power that transcends time itself. Which is followed by the Supreme Kai saying, "Does that mean that even time itself is nothing against Jiren's strength?"

The context behind this statement is this:

Jiren resisted Hit's constant Time-Skips in order to move forward and eventually intercept Hit's strongest attack simply by glaring at it before gripping it and crushing it.

Personally, I believe that this only qualifies as a Resistance to Time Stop feat.

Earlier in the scene, Hit also managed to push Jiren back almost to the edge of the arena before stopping time around him. The attack also left a sizable dent in Jiren's chest (albeit one that quickly healed).

This is the primary draw for users wanting to upgrade Hit to Jiren's tier. What do you guys make of this?

Another thing is that before this, Jiren also managed to stop one of Hit's "pass through your body and hit the vital organs" ki-waves, which would give Jiren the ability to meet and stop intangible attacks.

All in all, I feel that Jiren should get Mid-Low Regen, The ability to stop intangible attacks, and Resistance to Time Stop.

But given that other people here watch Dragon Ball more than me, it's probably better for you all to decide.

Thoughts?

Remember, STAFF-ONLY. If you having something to say, send it to a Staff Member so it can be brought up. Thank you.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I agree with your thoughts on the matter

"Power that transcends time" in this context is only referring to resisting time stop from what I can see. Not nearly enough evidence for Low 2-C

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for attempting to organise this Reppuzan. I agree with your conclusions.

 

[Promestein]

I also agree with this.

 

[Reppuzan]

About Hit, how should we rate him AP wise?

He pushed Jiren back and did minor damage. Would this qualify him for a High 3-A rating?

In addition, we may need to revise our stat justifications for the Angels is this is the case.

 

[Reppuzan]

In addition, some users asked me if the statements about Jiren would qualify for the "4-D Power" end of the High 3-A scale.

What do you guys think?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure how we should rate Hit in terms of AP. Dragon Ball has currently turned very inconsistent. If Hit is High 3-A, shouldn't Dyspo be as well, which would scale to Toppo, which would scale to regular SSB Goku, which would scale to Vegeta, Gohan, Android 17, Frieza, etcetera.

If he did not actually match Jiren, it might be better if we consider it as an inconsistency/outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, should we highlight this thread to get more staff input?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Rep, for 4-D power, I don't think powering through a time stop is actually quantifiable as 4-D power. At least not a significant enough level of 4-D power, or else there'd be people with small scale space time hax being rated as High 3-A.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ant

Highlighting this thread would probably be the best course of action. I'll do it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Did Hit harm Jiren after self improving?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I agree with rep here and honestly i only see it as a resistent to time stop as he still moved albeit being stagnant he still can act properly even overpower it. The transcend time statement seems like an exaggeration IMHO but eh I'll wait and see

 

[Golden_Void]

Hopefully we can keep "staff only" staff only this time.

I disagree with your interpretation of Vados's statement. Why would Vados's statement be referring to tokitobashi, instead of time itself which is what was stated, backed by her saying he is beyond comprehension?

Goku surpassed Hit's time skip (which is explicitly stated), and Vados made no statement about him surpassing time. Goku beats Hit's time skip agai , still no statement about Goku surpassing time from Vados. Jiren was very clearly above Hit's time skip the second he was using it . Not once did Jiren fall under the time skip animatio . The only thing that briefly worked was Hit continuously using time-skip, which for the first few seconds it was applied. He basically applied all the time he skipped to Jiren. He should've been frozen in time, but he wasn't.

As for upgrading Hit to Jiren's tier via that one attack ..

Although Jiren made his chest cavity fix itself, should we apply the same to Kunshi, since Hit used that attack on him and it magically disappeared as well?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Ignoring the Vados stuff. I feel Hit should be High 3-A. This would not upgrade Dyspo as after Hit self-improved, he stomped Dyspo. This doesn't mean Hit is stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku. This or comparable to Jiren's. But he did do damage. He would just be a lower end of High 3-A from what I see.

 

[Reppuzan]

Another user bought up the idea that Jiren's chest restoring itself was simply Hit's attack taking effect rather than regen. What do you all think?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That could in fact be regen. I would like more opinions though.

 

[Antvasima]

@UMR

Take note that even if Jiren actually did transcend time, this would only mean the 4D version of High 3-A instead, until we know that he can wipe out entire universal space-time continuums.

However, the question is whether or not it would qualify him for infinite speed? (Immeasurable seems like too much, given that he has not demonstrated the ability to move back and forth through time by speed alone.)

 

[Golden_Void]

That depends on how you define damage. Hit didn't land a single attack besides his one punch, which Jiren felt no pain from. He basically said "you serious?" and fixed his chest like popping out a dent on a car bumper.

 

[Golden_Void]

@Ant

I was thinking the 4D version as well. We'll probably have to wait even longer until we see more of Jiren, but when Jiren was under the continuous time-skip, time appeared to be frozen.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do the rest of the staff think about this?

 

[Jinx666]

Should Hit get "Immoblisation Users" added to his Powers and Abilities, seeing as he was able to immoblise Jiren for a little bit.

Also, i would say Hit should also have illusions added, seeing as he leaves a phantom of himself while the real one goes in stored time

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

As for 4-D power, I don't think powering through a time stop is actually quantifiable as 4-D power. At least not a significant enough level of 4-D power, or else there'd be people with small scale space time hax being rated as High 3-A.

Just mentioning this again.

Hit only froze Jiren specifically correct? Judging from the audience, it wasn't actually a universal time stop like Dio's The World.

The context of "power that transcends time" here is clearly Jiren having power that lets him break free of time stop.

I don't believe breaking out of simply a personalized time stop would qualify for 4-D power, or else people like the White Quee, Dio and Amenadiel would be High 3-A for "a small degree of 4-D power" via controlling time with their own space-time deletion, time stops and time slows respectively, all of which are superior time hax to Hit freezing Jiren

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is a good point.

 

[Dark649]

I do not think Jiren and other db characters are Low 2-C Infinite Speed.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Neither do I

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree.

 

[Antoniofer]

I agree with Rep too: this is more time-stop resistence that our conventional definition of Trascending Time. Futhermore, Jiren shouldn't be infinite in anything, he just did it slightly better than SSBx20, and stay in battle more time due to his skills, he still was stomped.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Basically, Jiren should not get an upgrade here. Hit on the otherhand....

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Not an upgrade, but still some power additions

I'm basically agreeing with Rep on the power additions, disagreeing on anything to do with 4-D power

 

[AidenBrooks999]

High 3-A via Time Lock (Or whatever is called) for Hit for restraining and forcing back Jiren is reasonable for me

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm fine with the OP and I'm maybe fine with High 3-A Hit after self-improvement.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind about infinite speed then.

I have now watched the episode, and agree that Hit did surprisingly well against Jiren. Perhaps he should get High 3-A as well.

 

[Dark649]

It was also stated that Hit and Ultra Goku were the only ones that Jiren considered worthy opponents.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Considering Toppo should be comparable to SSB Goku with Kaio Ken and Hit and also the fact that the man was considered a God of Destruction candidate, shouldn't he scale as well?

 

[Antoniofer]

Considering Toppo should be comparable to SSB Goku with Kaio Ken and Hit and also the fact that the man was considered a God of Destruction candidate, shouldn't he scale as well?

This wouldn't lead to scaling problems again? Hit's time restrain isn't related to AP, is more hax, it shouldn't scale to others.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Considering Toppo should be comparable to SSB Goku with Kaio Ken and Hit and also the fact that the man was considered a God of Destruction candidate, shouldn't he scale as well?

No.

 

[Dark649]

No, SSB Kaioken Goku easily was overwhelmed by Jiren and even Frieza was chosen as a candidate despite being on par with SSB Goku.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Okay then.

 

[SomebodyData]

I think it's tad more than time stop resistance, perhaps time manipulation resistance instead considering vados statements compared to what happened with Goku at the U6 tournament Arc, as this seems to imply that he isn't just capable of resisting only time stop but overall time based abilities given the context.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Since this is a Staff Only thread about Jiren, going to respost this here:

Okay, so the two sides are:

"Grand Priest should be Low 2-C scaling from Infinite Zamasu"

And:

"We have no proof that none of the High 3-A characters can affect space-time and are stronger than Infinite Zamasu"

I am of the opinion of the former.

Let's analyze evidence:

• 1) So, as we all know, Infinite Zamasu has a blatant Low 2-C feat. Encompassing the universe (And later multiverse if not stopped) across space-time.

Let's see how Beerus and Whis react to this:

https://animefrost.us/anime/dragon-ball-super/0/67/

(Apologies for linking to Fansub Site. Couldn't find the scene on youtube)

Scene happens at 7:22 minutes.

Whis: Hmm... I sense... A flow of unpleasant energy that makes my skin tingle.
Beerus: It's Zamasu. Something happened in the future. It's having an effect on the present.
Notably, both Beerus and Whis are concerned and viewing Infinite Zamasu as a definite problem / threat. This is notable because up until this point, Beerus has been portrayed as completely non-nonchalant and casual. He didn't fear any of the Super Villains up until that point.

So no doubt Infinite Zamasu is at the very least a significant threat to Beerus, if not stronger (Which we assumed to be the case given him having the best feat in Super besides Zeno).

Now, Jiren arrives and changes everything.

• 2) Statements about Jiren's power:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7ZxDqukDxU

Supreme Kai: This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong. Plain and simple.
So Supreme Kai says that Jiren's power is different than anything he and the U7 have faced because he is stronger.

Whis: I daresay... Like a God of Destruction. He is the one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumor is true.
And Whis says that Jiren's power is like that of a God of Destruction, if not stronger.

By the way, this happens when Jiren is still really suppressed tanking the Genki Dama.

Then Goku reaches his new, Ultra Instinct Form and fights a serious Jiren.

• 3) The Gods' reaction to Goku and Jiren:

https://youtu.be/yasZEXWUrw8?t=185

Khai: I can't believe someone who could gain on Jiren this much even exists!
Belmod: It's not possible! It can't be possible!
So Khai is absolutely shocked someone can match Jiren and Belmod says it's not possible.

By the way, Jiren is stronger than Belmod, by Belmod's own word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvxLbcJuYB0

Look at all the GoDs' and Kais' reaction to Ultra Instinct Goku. They are shocked that he is so strong. Beerus is left with his mouth agape.

Beerus: Ultra Instinct...
[Champa is utterly shocked, other GoDs get surprised]
Anat: I see. Those movements... But, for a mortal like Son Goku...? That is a state not even a god can easily attain.
Not only that, but the Ultra Instinct level is something that the GoDs have a difficulty reaching. The Angels have no problem with it, but it is really impressive to the GoDs.

With all of this in mind, here is my conclusion:

• 4) Conclusions:

Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku are undoubtedly stronger than the Gods of Destruction, even if not by leaps and bounds. But they are still weaker than the Angels and the Grand Priest.

Shin says that Jiren's power is completely different than anything that the Universe 7 has ever faced, because he is stronger than them. To that, Whis agrees, and states that he is on the level of a God of Destruction, if not stronger.

Beerus is utterly shocked at Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren's power, when he was previously only concerned by Infinite Zamasu.

The conclusion is simple:

Jiren and Goku, and by extension the Angels and Grand Priest, are stronger than Infinite Zamasu.

It is likely that Infinite Zamasu is on the level of a God, if not a bit weaker. He is at the most on the same level.

Meanwhile, Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku are stronger, even if not immensely strong.

The Angels are even stronger, and Grand Priest is above even that.

• 5) Tier Changes:

All the Gods of Destruction should be changed to Low 2-C. The justification should be "Any God of Destruction can destroy the universe even when holding back immensely, and should any two GoDs fight, the collateral damage will result in the destruction of their respective universes. Should at least be comparable to Infinite Zamasu"

Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku should be Low 2-C too. The justification should be: "Even when holding back, Jiren was stated by Supreme Kai to be more powerful than anyone he and the Universe 7 warriors have ever faced, which should make him more powerful than Infinite Zamasu. Stated to have reached the level of a God of Destruction, if not surpassed it completely. His power let Beerus completely shocked, when he was previously only concerned by Infinite Zamasu's power. Even when suppressed, his Ki alone shook the entirety of the World of Void, a dimension of infinite size"

All the Angels should be Low 2-C, with the reasoning being (Much stronger than any God of Destruction, and stronger than Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku as well)

And Grand Priest should be At least Low 2-C for being far above the Angels and inferior to only Zeno and three other unknowns.