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Did lightnings match with Goku get removed?
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Jiren (Dragon Ball) vs Lightning (Final Fantasy XIII)
- Thread starter MoonChosen
- Start date
- Status
- 61
- 20
Jiren negs.
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Lightning v Goku needs to be taken down and Jiren FRA
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lmfaoAkreious said:
Quibster
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Yeah, In my thread with Lightning vs Gogeta, she basically gets stomped. In that thread, there were also discussions about her also getting one-shotted by Jiren due to sheer AP.
Voting Jiren for these reasons. If lightning tries to get close, she'll get glared, or punched across the fighting stage. Unless she has something scaling to or above Goku's MUI, she's not going to touch him.
Jiren FRA.
Edit: I agree. Some changes and better elaborations need to be made on Lightning's page.
Voting Jiren for these reasons. If lightning tries to get close, she'll get glared, or punched across the fighting stage. Unless she has something scaling to or above Goku's MUI, she's not going to touch him.
Jiren FRA.
Edit: I agree. Some changes and better elaborations need to be made on Lightning's page.
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Actually lightning soul manip his combat applicable hell the moment she met snow she went straight for the soul manip kill even before she got into his club she took down the guards and took there soup so she do rips soul's away of people she just me.
This is stomp from both ways since Jiren have never shown any resistance to that kind of soul Manip and yes her soul manip is actually combat applicable she just avoided it to use it against Bhunivelze because her job was to safe guard the soul of humanity itself later on she realized that she was actually supposed to use them after her friends and sister came along so yeah.
No amount of Soul Manip is going to save Jiren that shit killed a being wayyyy higher than him this is a stomp in both way and we know that lighting does open with soul hax the entire point of lighting return was to take the soul of humanity itself the reson you needed to do favor is actually purely game mechanics since cutscenes shows lightning ripping souls or going for it.
It can go either way I vote inconclusive or close because stomp.
Skip to 1:43 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Qy_jTK74M
Lightning casually takes the soul of a guard and 2 of them were already taken when she came in she didn't even have to touch these guys as the Goddess of Death she as absolute control of souls and you can clearly see they come straight to via pulling them towards her.
Obviously she didn't rip away Snow's soul because of there past together the dude is basically her brother in law and one of her closest friends she was obviously hesitant to do anything Snow was even trying to push her into "saving" him.
This is stomp from both ways since Jiren have never shown any resistance to that kind of soul Manip and yes her soul manip is actually combat applicable she just avoided it to use it against Bhunivelze because her job was to safe guard the soul of humanity itself later on she realized that she was actually supposed to use them after her friends and sister came along so yeah.
No amount of Soul Manip is going to save Jiren that shit killed a being wayyyy higher than him this is a stomp in both way and we know that lighting does open with soul hax the entire point of lighting return was to take the soul of humanity itself the reson you needed to do favor is actually purely game mechanics since cutscenes shows lightning ripping souls or going for it.
It can go either way I vote inconclusive or close because stomp.
Skip to 1:43 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Qy_jTK74M
Lightning casually takes the soul of a guard and 2 of them were already taken when she came in she didn't even have to touch these guys as the Goddess of Death she as absolute control of souls and you can clearly see they come straight to via pulling them towards her.
Obviously she didn't rip away Snow's soul because of there past together the dude is basically her brother in law and one of her closest friends she was obviously hesitant to do anything Snow was even trying to push her into "saving" him.
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I'll change my vote to inconclusive if nobody can counter @Ashen's argument. Glare oneshots, Soul hax oneshot.
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as far as I can see, this soul manip technique involves touching
Assuming both start with Glare/soul manip (which they will), Jiren's is gonna hit first
Assuming both start with Glare/soul manip (which they will), Jiren's is gonna hit first
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OHHHHH YEAHHHHH! Totally forgot Lightning has to touch! Nvm, Jiren FRAMickey1940 said:
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She doesn't have to to touch them there are other instances in the game when she can just manifest people souls out of their bodies hell every single quest have small cutscenes of lightning taking peoples souls when they accept being saved and she doesn't even touch them
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Mate. Just... mate.
If you have something to say just say it but don't do needles highlighted quote anyways I wrote that because that one way lightning can do it since she basically slapped concept of humanity on God (or a insanely strong empathy manipulation https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-5zh3uYUL7I&t=654s just watch the whole thing at this point.) and casually summoned the the soul of humanity (the one that God thought she wouldn't be able to control but she literally did)
Also lightning can just open with Time Stop and yes she did that more then once in lightning returns and FFX13-12 against Caius ballad also lightning timestop is so much above anything Jiren has ever resisted in his life It's time stop is nothing compared to Lightning who can affect Bhunivelze.
So yeah inconclusive or lightning opens with time stop and reap Jirens soul's.
Also even if it can hit lightning she still as barriers that can take the first hit and "8: Reliant Immortality: The character cannot die as long as a certain being, object, or even concept exists" since type 4 was change and Lightnings immortality works like that since it depends on a higher being so even she get killed the first time the second time she won't.
Someone need to update Lightnings page tho.
If you have something to say just say it but don't do needles highlighted quote anyways I wrote that because that one way lightning can do it since she basically slapped concept of humanity on God (or a insanely strong empathy manipulation https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-5zh3uYUL7I&t=654s just watch the whole thing at this point.) and casually summoned the the soul of humanity (the one that God thought she wouldn't be able to control but she literally did)
Also lightning can just open with Time Stop and yes she did that more then once in lightning returns and FFX13-12 against Caius ballad also lightning timestop is so much above anything Jiren has ever resisted in his life It's time stop is nothing compared to Lightning who can affect Bhunivelze.
So yeah inconclusive or lightning opens with time stop and reap Jirens soul's.
Also even if it can hit lightning she still as barriers that can take the first hit and "8: Reliant Immortality: The character cannot die as long as a certain being, object, or even concept exists" since type 4 was change and Lightnings immortality works like that since it depends on a higher being so even she get killed the first time the second time she won't.
Someone need to update Lightnings page tho.
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If you have something to say just say it but don't do needles highlighted quote anyways I wrote that because that one way lightning can do it since she basically slapped concept of humanity on God (or a insanely strong empathy manipulation https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-5zh3uYUL7I&t=654s just watch the whole thing at this point.) and casually summoned the the soul of humanity (the one that God thought she wouldn't be able to control but she literally did)AshenCrow777 said:
Also lightning can just open with Time Stop and yes she did that more then once in lightning returns and FFX13-12 against Caius ballad also lightning timestop is so much above anything Jiren has ever resisted in his life It's time stop is nothing compared to Lightning who can affect Bhunivelze.
So yeah inconclusive or lightning opens with time stop and reap Jirens soul's.
Also even if it can hit lightning she still as barriers that can take the first hit and "8: Reliant Immortality: The character cannot die as long as a certain being, object, or even concept exists" since type 4 was change and Lightnings immortality works like that since it depends on a higher being so even she get killed the first time the second time she won't.
Someone need to update Lightnings page tho.
As rude as they put it, you specifically said that those who wanted to be saved can be soul-maniped without touching, but otherwise would require touching
also Jiren has proven to be resistant to Time Stop, since he moved quite effortlessley in Hit's Time Cage. So I don't see why he wouldn't just glare while stopped
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I said that is ONE OF THE WAYS LIGHTNING CAN USE her Soul manip also Hit's time stop is nowhere near as potent as Lightnings time stop it dosent even come close not by a long shot when lightning Time stop can affect a being like Bhunivelze Hit as good time stop but it requires him a lot of concentration to maintain against a insanely strong opponent like Jiren but whatever.
My vote still remains incon
My vote still remains incon
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Vados, an angel which are capable of manipulating space and time itself, claims Jiren 'transcends' time (like it's something unique rather than him simply overpowering Hit's Time Skip itself) yet Jiren still struggled greatly to break through Hit's Time Cage.
I'd say Jiren, a being said to 'transcend time' struggling to break through Hit's time manipulation would make it absrudly powerful, not just 'good'. Hit has incredible spacetime hax, being capable of creating pocket dimensions, phasing between dimensions, freezing time, skipping time and even attacking his opponent with a sphere that embodies all of the time he has skipped and all of which would scale to causing a being that 'transcends time' to struggle with overpowering him.
So Hit's 'a lot of concentration' is actually him binding a monster that 'transcends time'. Not him just freezing time, skipping time, slowing time or any other form of time manipulation. It's him literally trying to stop something that surpasses the very concept of his hax, time.
Unless, you want to contradict the time-manipulating, space-manipulating, tens of millions of years old (at least) Angel that is beyond the greatest Gods of the Dragon Ball Multiverse (that are also tens of millions of years old) barring Zeno, the highest god of all?
I'd say Jiren, a being said to 'transcend time' struggling to break through Hit's time manipulation would make it absrudly powerful, not just 'good'. Hit has incredible spacetime hax, being capable of creating pocket dimensions, phasing between dimensions, freezing time, skipping time and even attacking his opponent with a sphere that embodies all of the time he has skipped and all of which would scale to causing a being that 'transcends time' to struggle with overpowering him.
So Hit's 'a lot of concentration' is actually him binding a monster that 'transcends time'. Not him just freezing time, skipping time, slowing time or any other form of time manipulation. It's him literally trying to stop something that surpasses the very concept of his hax, time.
Unless, you want to contradict the time-manipulating, space-manipulating, tens of millions of years old (at least) Angel that is beyond the greatest Gods of the Dragon Ball Multiverse (that are also tens of millions of years old) barring Zeno, the highest god of all?
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If Jiren actually did trancended time his speed would actually immeasurable and Hit's Time cage wouldn't even have effected him in no way, also a character saying something is not enough burden of proof falls on you to actually show me that Jiren as surpassed Time itself.
And all of these abilities you said Hit can do lightning can literally do the same (her dimension became the realm of the dead and she was going to keep Bhunivelze with her forever) and again post proof that Jiren actually do trancends time and not just some vague statement.
If you can give me something concrete sure but for now my vote stays inconclusive.
From the speed page: "Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, travel anywhere instantly, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see note 4 below.) Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)
Irrelevant (Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.)"
That statement about Jiren surpassing Time and space would be a massive outlier because the moment he steps in ring everyone would have been stomp to hell and back, heck anyone reacting to Jiren would technically be immeasurable speed or infinite and thats a big outlier on itself.
And all of these abilities you said Hit can do lightning can literally do the same (her dimension became the realm of the dead and she was going to keep Bhunivelze with her forever) and again post proof that Jiren actually do trancends time and not just some vague statement.
If you can give me something concrete sure but for now my vote stays inconclusive.
From the speed page: "Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, travel anywhere instantly, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see note 4 below.) Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)
Irrelevant (Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.)"
That statement about Jiren surpassing Time and space would be a massive outlier because the moment he steps in ring everyone would have been stomp to hell and back, heck anyone reacting to Jiren would technically be immeasurable speed or infinite and thats a big outlier on itself.
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If Jiren actually did trancended time his speed would actually immeasurable and Hit's Time cage wouldn't even have effected him in no way, also a character saying something is not enough burden of proof falls on you to actually show me that Jiren as surpassed Time itself.
Vados, Champa and Shin, literal gods that are millions of years old, outright state that Jiren 'transcended time' and that he is unaffected by time-based effects. You can't debunk that by using pseudo-science made up for arbitary speed scaling. Fact of the matter is, the scene and quotes establish that Jiren is above time hax, that was the entire point of Hit jobbing.
And all of these abilities you said Hit can do lightning can literally do the same (her dimension became the realm of the dead and she was going to keep Bhunivelze with her forever) and again post proof that Jiren actually do trancends time and not just some vague statement.
So what you are saying is that Jiren transcended the time hax of someone that has equivalent hax to Lightning? That just means Jiren would be unaffected by Lightning's own hax.
Again, not a 'vague statement'. You are forcing the perspective that it is 'vague'. The characters outright state it, define what it means and display genuine awe at Jiren's feat. He is immune to timehax. The specifics of how exactly it works or is defined is up to debate, but not the simple fact that he is stated to be above time hax and is depicted as transcending time hax.
That statement about Jiren surpassing Time and space would be a massive outlier because the moment he steps in ring everyone would have been stomp to hell and back, heck anyone reacting to Jiren would technically be immeasurable speed or infinite and thats a big outlier on itself.
Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Frieza, Dyspo, Toppo, 17, Piccolo, Hit, Jiren, hell even Jimeze could have all knocked out 90% of the participants within the very first second of the Tournament of Power if they had bothered. It's pure PIS.
If you want to debate Jiren's speed scaling from the feat, make a revision thread that argues his speed would be infinite or unquantifiable due to the feat. Speed is equalized here, meaning the result means absolutely nothing to the matchup. The only fact that matters from the scene, feat and statements is that Jiren is immune to time hax.
Lightning's time hax ultimately would not work on Jiren by virtue of him overwhelming time hax, being stated to 'transcend time' and that 'time is nothing' to Jiren. Now, provide argument that Jiren doesn't have immunity to time hax. And, no, the definition of 'speed' on this wiki has absolutely zero bearing on canonical feats and statements. If you take issue with Jiren not having unquantifiable speed due to the feat, take it up with the wiki itself.
Ultimately, the standards of a fanon wiki can not contradict canonical feats and scaling. Jiren has feats and statements indicating that he is immune to time hax.
Vados, Champa and Shin, literal gods that are millions of years old, outright state that Jiren 'transcended time' and that he is unaffected by time-based effects. You can't debunk that by using pseudo-science made up for arbitary speed scaling. Fact of the matter is, the scene and quotes establish that Jiren is above time hax, that was the entire point of Hit jobbing.
And all of these abilities you said Hit can do lightning can literally do the same (her dimension became the realm of the dead and she was going to keep Bhunivelze with her forever) and again post proof that Jiren actually do trancends time and not just some vague statement.
So what you are saying is that Jiren transcended the time hax of someone that has equivalent hax to Lightning? That just means Jiren would be unaffected by Lightning's own hax.
Again, not a 'vague statement'. You are forcing the perspective that it is 'vague'. The characters outright state it, define what it means and display genuine awe at Jiren's feat. He is immune to timehax. The specifics of how exactly it works or is defined is up to debate, but not the simple fact that he is stated to be above time hax and is depicted as transcending time hax.
That statement about Jiren surpassing Time and space would be a massive outlier because the moment he steps in ring everyone would have been stomp to hell and back, heck anyone reacting to Jiren would technically be immeasurable speed or infinite and thats a big outlier on itself.
Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Frieza, Dyspo, Toppo, 17, Piccolo, Hit, Jiren, hell even Jimeze could have all knocked out 90% of the participants within the very first second of the Tournament of Power if they had bothered. It's pure PIS.
If you want to debate Jiren's speed scaling from the feat, make a revision thread that argues his speed would be infinite or unquantifiable due to the feat. Speed is equalized here, meaning the result means absolutely nothing to the matchup. The only fact that matters from the scene, feat and statements is that Jiren is immune to time hax.
Lightning's time hax ultimately would not work on Jiren by virtue of him overwhelming time hax, being stated to 'transcend time' and that 'time is nothing' to Jiren. Now, provide argument that Jiren doesn't have immunity to time hax. And, no, the definition of 'speed' on this wiki has absolutely zero bearing on canonical feats and statements. If you take issue with Jiren not having unquantifiable speed due to the feat, take it up with the wiki itself.
Ultimately, the standards of a fanon wiki can not contradict canonical feats and scaling. Jiren has feats and statements indicating that he is immune to time hax.
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Now, if you wanted me to argue for my theory on how Jiren's 'transcends time' and 'time means nothing to him' statements would mesh with the (flawed) standards of the wiki? I would argue that Jiren doesn't have unquantifiable/infinite speed. I would argue that he is 'anchored' to his own spacetime and that his spacetime can not be manipulated by other persons. So, while I would claim he is immune to time hax, I do not think he is 'faster' than time. Just that he is unaffected by attempts to manipulate his relative spacetime.
That's what the context, statements and consistency seems to indicate anyways.
That's what the context, statements and consistency seems to indicate anyways.
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There is so much wrong with both things you posted I'll have to start writing a wall text and please don't put words in my mouth, plus in both post you literally go against your own arguments.
Plus calling the wiki system "Flawed" and "You can't debunk that by using pseudo-science made up for arbitary speed scaling" does not help your argument at all also this
"Ultimately, the standards of a fanon wiki can not contradict canonical feats and scaling. Jiren has feats and statements indicating that he is immune to time hax." just oof theres a reason Jirens speed his not up to infinite."
Also you ridiculously again contradict yourself by saying that Jiren is immune to time if he was actually IMMUNE TO Time Hit wouldn't even have been able to affect him at all this is a massive jump in reasoning and borderline wank headcannon. Jiren is not Immune to time at all he is just resistant and that's it lightning practically stomp.
Just ugh do you even know what immune to time means your so called theory is basically trying to grasp for straws and you still haven't proven anything but yeah don't reply to this I honestly don't care any more my vote stays inconclusive.
Now, if you wanted me to argue for my theory on how Jiren's 'transcends time' and 'time means nothing to him' statements would mesh with the (flawed) standards of the wiki? I would argue that Jiren doesn't have unquantifiable/infinite speed. I would argue that he is 'anchored' to his own spacetime and that his spacetime can not be manipulated by other persons. So, while I would claim he is immune to time hax, I do not think he is 'faster' than time. Just that he is unaffected by attempts to manipulate his relative spacetime.
You are either affected by time or you are not there is no middle ground if Jiren was immune by time that means you work outside of time literally which Jiren his clearly not.
I'm out need sleep.
I'm not coming back on this either.
Plus calling the wiki system "Flawed" and "You can't debunk that by using pseudo-science made up for arbitary speed scaling" does not help your argument at all also this
"Ultimately, the standards of a fanon wiki can not contradict canonical feats and scaling. Jiren has feats and statements indicating that he is immune to time hax." just oof theres a reason Jirens speed his not up to infinite."
Also you ridiculously again contradict yourself by saying that Jiren is immune to time if he was actually IMMUNE TO Time Hit wouldn't even have been able to affect him at all this is a massive jump in reasoning and borderline wank headcannon. Jiren is not Immune to time at all he is just resistant and that's it lightning practically stomp.
Just ugh do you even know what immune to time means your so called theory is basically trying to grasp for straws and you still haven't proven anything but yeah don't reply to this I honestly don't care any more my vote stays inconclusive.
Now, if you wanted me to argue for my theory on how Jiren's 'transcends time' and 'time means nothing to him' statements would mesh with the (flawed) standards of the wiki? I would argue that Jiren doesn't have unquantifiable/infinite speed. I would argue that he is 'anchored' to his own spacetime and that his spacetime can not be manipulated by other persons. So, while I would claim he is immune to time hax, I do not think he is 'faster' than time. Just that he is unaffected by attempts to manipulate his relative spacetime.
You are either affected by time or you are not there is no middle ground if Jiren was immune by time that means you work outside of time literally which Jiren his clearly not.
I'm out need sleep.
I'm not coming back on this either.
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One last thing
I disagree with your interpretation of Vados's statement.
Goku surpassed Hit's time skip (which is explicitly stated), and Vados made no statement about him surpassing time. Goku beats Hit's time skip again , still no statement about Goku surpassing time from Vados. Jiren was very clearly above Hit's time skip the second he was using it . Not once did Jiren fall under the time skip animation . The only thing that briefly worked was Hit continuously using time-skip, which for the first few seconds it was applied. He basically applied all the time he skipped to Jiren. He should've been frozen in time, but he wasn't.
Hit only froze Jiren specifically correct? Judging from the audience, it wasn't actually a universal time stop like Dio's The World.
The context of "power that transcends time" here is clearly Jiren having power that lets him break free of time stop.
I don't believe breaking out of simply a personalized time stop would qualify for 4-D power, or else people like the White Queen, Dio and Amenadiel would be High 3-A for "a small degree of 4-D power" via controlling time with their own space-time deletion, time stops and time slows respectively, all of which are superior time hax to Hit freezing Jiren"
That was brought on before Antvasima and several staff debunked that statement and it was not accepted.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1022330?useskin=oasis
Nice try almost pulled a fast one go properly do a CRT this time now I see why you called the wiki system Flawed.
I disagree with your interpretation of Vados's statement.
Goku surpassed Hit's time skip (which is explicitly stated), and Vados made no statement about him surpassing time. Goku beats Hit's time skip again , still no statement about Goku surpassing time from Vados. Jiren was very clearly above Hit's time skip the second he was using it . Not once did Jiren fall under the time skip animation . The only thing that briefly worked was Hit continuously using time-skip, which for the first few seconds it was applied. He basically applied all the time he skipped to Jiren. He should've been frozen in time, but he wasn't.
Hit only froze Jiren specifically correct? Judging from the audience, it wasn't actually a universal time stop like Dio's The World.
The context of "power that transcends time" here is clearly Jiren having power that lets him break free of time stop.
I don't believe breaking out of simply a personalized time stop would qualify for 4-D power, or else people like the White Queen, Dio and Amenadiel would be High 3-A for "a small degree of 4-D power" via controlling time with their own space-time deletion, time stops and time slows respectively, all of which are superior time hax to Hit freezing Jiren"
That was brought on before Antvasima and several staff debunked that statement and it was not accepted.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1022330?useskin=oasis
Nice try almost pulled a fast one go properly do a CRT this time now I see why you called the wiki system Flawed.
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Also you ridiculously again contradict yourself by saying that Jiren is immune to time if he was actually IMMUNE TO Time Hit wouldn't even have been able to affect him at all this is a massive jump in reasoning and borderline wank headcannon. Jiren is not Immune to time at all he is just very resistant and that's it.
Jiren was heavily suppressed when Hit used his Time Cage (to freeze Jiren for at least half an hour), resisted it and then destroyed it within a few seconds (in-universe) of being trapped. It was Jiren overpowering the Time Cage that caused Vados to remark that Jiren 'transcended' time and for Shin to say, in disbelief, that 'time means nothing' to Jiren. Note, Shin's statement was something he was questioning rather than confirmed by a valid authoritative source. Vados, the authority here, only claimed that Jiren had 'transcended' time rather than 'time means nothing' to him.
The basic rationale, thus, is that Jiren was gradually using more power to overpower Hit's Time Cage, as evident by Jiren being trapped then resisting it THEN overpowering it. It was even remarked later that Belmod hasn't seen Jiren use as much power as he did against SSB Goku in 'a long time'. This means Jiren was resisting time hax, and then declared 'transcendent' of time by Vados, when he was barely using any of his power.
You have not aptly argued against my post, you have merely claimed that the argument is unreasonable wank headcanon, despite providing no proof of this and despite being contradicted by the very franchise itself.
Just ugh do you even know what immune to time means your so called theory is basically trying to grasp for straws and you still haven't proven anything but yeah don't reply to this I honestly don't care any more my vote stays inconclusive.
Again, you aren't disproving the character statements, the feats or my arguments. You are just claiming it is wrong out of pure frustration.
You are either affected by time or you are not there is no middle ground if Jiren was immune by time that means you work outside of time literally which Jiren his clearly not.
There is middle ground, that Jiren isn't above 4D but is immune to 4D manipulation. In other words, he transcends time manipulation but is still bound by time itself.
It's like this, if a character is immune to gravity manipulation they still, logically, have a personal gravity. How else can they be influenced by gravity? The point isn't that they are 'above' gravity, the argument is that they are simply immune to attempts to manipulate their personal gravity.
I am thus arguing that Jiren is 'transcendent' the manipulation of his 'personal' time. It's similar to how Hit 'relatively' froze Jiren in a cage of time whilst not influencing anyone else in the arena. Attempts to target or influence Jiren with time hax simply will not work, based upon the statements and feats present within the show itself.
Hit only froze Jiren specifically correct? Judging from the audience, it wasn't actually a universal time stop like Dio's The World.
Hit's Time Cage was a localised Time Stop that was achieved by focusing all of his energies on Jiren, and it is shown that it froze time relative to Jiren. As you can see Jiren is shown to be frozen in spacetime relative to everyone else. The entire plan was that Hit would keep Jiren from interfering in the tournament until the timer ran out, freezing the entire world would logically ruin his plan.
I don't believe breaking out of simply a personalized time stop would qualify for 4-D power, or else people like the White Queen, Dio and Amenadiel would be High 3-A for "a small degree of 4-D power" via controlling time with their own space-time deletion, time stops and time slows respectively, all of which are superior time hax to Hit freezing Jiren"
It depends on how you would argue the extent of Hit's various time hax feats.In this feat Hit outright states that he has frozen time for 'everyone' but he and his target. Occam's Razor would dictate that this means Hit completely froze time on a universal scale, as nothing indicates his statement is anything lesser.
When Hit uses Time Skip in the tournament with Universe 6 and 7 numerous characters express an inability to understand what is happening such as Goku, Jaco, Vegeta (Bulma as well but...well, author intent exists but nobody is going to take her comments seriously). Whis and Beerus express surprise that Hit can manipulate time and Beerus even questions Whis on how you would fight a time manipulator which implies they may have also been affected by Hit's timeskip.
In other words, Hit's time skip is complete 4-D control which includes skipping time, stopping time and (in the manga) slowing time. In the anime, he learned to localise his time stop to influencing somebody relatively speaking, freezing Jiren in time when time functions like usual outside of his cage. As I said already, this was due to Hit's plan being timing Jiren out.
That was brought on before Antvasima and several staff debunked that statement and it was not accepted.
Resisted as Jiren being higher than 4-D...? I'm not sure if you checked, but most characters from the ToP onwards are Low 2-C, including Jiren. Which is defined as the power to 'create and/or destroy' a 4-dimensional universe-sized space. Jiren already scales to countless times baseline 4-D AP and is borderline 2-C with Limit Break.
Characters that scale to Low 2-C already have 4-D universal destruction/creation and Jiren scales to having the AP to casually do such a thing. He also has feats resisting time hax and statements that he 'transcends' time (immune to time hax). And, as I already showed, Hit's Time Skip and Time Stop both seem to effect 4-D universe-sized constructs. And, contextually, Hit's Time Cage is meant to be his ultimate Time Skip technique, designed to take out a single threat that is too dangerous to defeat in conventional combat within the Tournament of Power. It being 'lesser' than a basic Time Skip or Time Stop would be ridiculous as a trump card.
Nice try almost pulled a fast one go properly do a CRT this time now I see why you called the wiki system Flawed.
Why would I? I stated that Jiren's speed scaling due to his time hax immunity is completely up to other people to debate and wouldn't even influence this battle. I only care for arguing that Jiren can resist, and is arguably immune, to Lightning's time hax. This has not been contradicted, debunked or shaken thus far.
If anyone wants to make a thread discussing Jiren's immunity to time hax and/or his speed due to this, go ahead.
Jiren was heavily suppressed when Hit used his Time Cage (to freeze Jiren for at least half an hour), resisted it and then destroyed it within a few seconds (in-universe) of being trapped. It was Jiren overpowering the Time Cage that caused Vados to remark that Jiren 'transcended' time and for Shin to say, in disbelief, that 'time means nothing' to Jiren. Note, Shin's statement was something he was questioning rather than confirmed by a valid authoritative source. Vados, the authority here, only claimed that Jiren had 'transcended' time rather than 'time means nothing' to him.
The basic rationale, thus, is that Jiren was gradually using more power to overpower Hit's Time Cage, as evident by Jiren being trapped then resisting it THEN overpowering it. It was even remarked later that Belmod hasn't seen Jiren use as much power as he did against SSB Goku in 'a long time'. This means Jiren was resisting time hax, and then declared 'transcendent' of time by Vados, when he was barely using any of his power.
You have not aptly argued against my post, you have merely claimed that the argument is unreasonable wank headcanon, despite providing no proof of this and despite being contradicted by the very franchise itself.
Just ugh do you even know what immune to time means your so called theory is basically trying to grasp for straws and you still haven't proven anything but yeah don't reply to this I honestly don't care any more my vote stays inconclusive.
Again, you aren't disproving the character statements, the feats or my arguments. You are just claiming it is wrong out of pure frustration.
You are either affected by time or you are not there is no middle ground if Jiren was immune by time that means you work outside of time literally which Jiren his clearly not.
There is middle ground, that Jiren isn't above 4D but is immune to 4D manipulation. In other words, he transcends time manipulation but is still bound by time itself.
It's like this, if a character is immune to gravity manipulation they still, logically, have a personal gravity. How else can they be influenced by gravity? The point isn't that they are 'above' gravity, the argument is that they are simply immune to attempts to manipulate their personal gravity.
I am thus arguing that Jiren is 'transcendent' the manipulation of his 'personal' time. It's similar to how Hit 'relatively' froze Jiren in a cage of time whilst not influencing anyone else in the arena. Attempts to target or influence Jiren with time hax simply will not work, based upon the statements and feats present within the show itself.
Hit only froze Jiren specifically correct? Judging from the audience, it wasn't actually a universal time stop like Dio's The World.
Hit's Time Cage was a localised Time Stop that was achieved by focusing all of his energies on Jiren, and it is shown that it froze time relative to Jiren. As you can see Jiren is shown to be frozen in spacetime relative to everyone else. The entire plan was that Hit would keep Jiren from interfering in the tournament until the timer ran out, freezing the entire world would logically ruin his plan.
I don't believe breaking out of simply a personalized time stop would qualify for 4-D power, or else people like the White Queen, Dio and Amenadiel would be High 3-A for "a small degree of 4-D power" via controlling time with their own space-time deletion, time stops and time slows respectively, all of which are superior time hax to Hit freezing Jiren"
It depends on how you would argue the extent of Hit's various time hax feats.In this feat Hit outright states that he has frozen time for 'everyone' but he and his target. Occam's Razor would dictate that this means Hit completely froze time on a universal scale, as nothing indicates his statement is anything lesser.
When Hit uses Time Skip in the tournament with Universe 6 and 7 numerous characters express an inability to understand what is happening such as Goku, Jaco, Vegeta (Bulma as well but...well, author intent exists but nobody is going to take her comments seriously). Whis and Beerus express surprise that Hit can manipulate time and Beerus even questions Whis on how you would fight a time manipulator which implies they may have also been affected by Hit's timeskip.
In other words, Hit's time skip is complete 4-D control which includes skipping time, stopping time and (in the manga) slowing time. In the anime, he learned to localise his time stop to influencing somebody relatively speaking, freezing Jiren in time when time functions like usual outside of his cage. As I said already, this was due to Hit's plan being timing Jiren out.
That was brought on before Antvasima and several staff debunked that statement and it was not accepted.
Resisted as Jiren being higher than 4-D...? I'm not sure if you checked, but most characters from the ToP onwards are Low 2-C, including Jiren. Which is defined as the power to 'create and/or destroy' a 4-dimensional universe-sized space. Jiren already scales to countless times baseline 4-D AP and is borderline 2-C with Limit Break.
Characters that scale to Low 2-C already have 4-D universal destruction/creation and Jiren scales to having the AP to casually do such a thing. He also has feats resisting time hax and statements that he 'transcends' time (immune to time hax). And, as I already showed, Hit's Time Skip and Time Stop both seem to effect 4-D universe-sized constructs. And, contextually, Hit's Time Cage is meant to be his ultimate Time Skip technique, designed to take out a single threat that is too dangerous to defeat in conventional combat within the Tournament of Power. It being 'lesser' than a basic Time Skip or Time Stop would be ridiculous as a trump card.
Nice try almost pulled a fast one go properly do a CRT this time now I see why you called the wiki system Flawed.
Why would I? I stated that Jiren's speed scaling due to his time hax immunity is completely up to other people to debate and wouldn't even influence this battle. I only care for arguing that Jiren can resist, and is arguably immune, to Lightning's time hax. This has not been contradicted, debunked or shaken thus far.
If anyone wants to make a thread discussing Jiren's immunity to time hax and/or his speed due to this, go ahead.
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I would like to point, specifically, to this excerpt from the tiering system:
So, Jiren outright resists Time Manipulation, is many times the baseline of a 4D Universe-sized space buster/creator and displays resistance (when heavily suppressed to 3-A levels) against someone that has outright 4D universal time hax and is said to 'transcend' said time hax by someone that has 4D Time Hax (Vados).
Jiren is 4D but is above the manipulation of 4D constructs, he is too powerful to be controlled at such a level. This is shown in-universe and stated as such.
- Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline. Please take note that simple statements of transcending and/or overcoming space/time without any further elaboration is not enough to grant a Universe level+ rating. Such statements could be flowery language or at most simply refer to resistance to space-time manipulation.
So, Jiren outright resists Time Manipulation, is many times the baseline of a 4D Universe-sized space buster/creator and displays resistance (when heavily suppressed to 3-A levels) against someone that has outright 4D universal time hax and is said to 'transcend' said time hax by someone that has 4D Time Hax (Vados).
Jiren is 4D but is above the manipulation of 4D constructs, he is too powerful to be controlled at such a level. This is shown in-universe and stated as such.
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Why is this even a debate anyway? Jiren is still more likely to open with literally any attack before Lightning uses time-hax on a character she's never seen. Even if she does open with it, Jiren would still resist long enough to one-shot.
Voting for Jiren.
Voting for Jiren.
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@CryoTheMayo I applaud your argument, really solid reasoning
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I don't disagree with your overall arguement, but saying Jiren struggles against Hit's Time Skip is weird since he was never stated to show his "true power" untill he fought SSGSS Kaioken x20 Goku and SSGSS Evolved VegetaCryoTheMayo said:
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Jiren is not a 4-D hes just a character that can damage people with that kind of durability show me scans of Jiren hurting a 4-D being.
Being Low 2-C does not automatically grant someone the capacity to destroy a timeline. Area of Effect is a thing even in higher tiers.
Because Low 2-C is the AP for destroying a timeline.
Jiren isn't Low 2-C because he can destroy a timeline, he is Low 2-C because he can harm people who have Low 2-C durability.
It's the same principle as "A 5-B character doesn't necessarily pulverize Earth whenever he/she/it throws a punch".
That's why he has 3-A range basically.
We don't assume that the AP of a character automatically scales to their range.
Destroying a timeline entails Low 2-C range. Punching another Low 2-C through the floor doesn't.
So please stop waking and spreading misinformation information the only thing Jiren got above lightning is AP advantage and that's it Jiren is pretty much Haxless Lightning can debuff him so ******* hard followed by time stop and just be done with it.
ALSOYES LIGHTNING CAN OPEN WITH TIMESTOP ON OPPONENTS SHE MEETS THE FIRST TIME some of you have been just ignoring things I posted and are just saying Jiren FRA
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1022330?useskin=oasis go actually read it this time.
Being Low 2-C does not automatically grant someone the capacity to destroy a timeline. Area of Effect is a thing even in higher tiers.
Because Low 2-C is the AP for destroying a timeline.
Jiren isn't Low 2-C because he can destroy a timeline, he is Low 2-C because he can harm people who have Low 2-C durability.
It's the same principle as "A 5-B character doesn't necessarily pulverize Earth whenever he/she/it throws a punch".
That's why he has 3-A range basically.
We don't assume that the AP of a character automatically scales to their range.
Destroying a timeline entails Low 2-C range. Punching another Low 2-C through the floor doesn't.
So please stop waking and spreading misinformation information the only thing Jiren got above lightning is AP advantage and that's it Jiren is pretty much Haxless Lightning can debuff him so ******* hard followed by time stop and just be done with it.
ALSOYES LIGHTNING CAN OPEN WITH TIMESTOP ON OPPONENTS SHE MEETS THE FIRST TIME some of you have been just ignoring things I posted and are just saying Jiren FRA
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1022330?useskin=oasis go actually read it this time.
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Pretty much nothing you said addressed Jiren's resistance to time stop. He would still be able to simply glare at her and one-shot before her debuffs do anything. Him being haxless doesn't mean much when he can kill her with a look and means even less considering she is far from hax enough to pose a serious problem to a guy that's likely hundreds of times baseline.
All in all, your griping about him being 4-D is kinda irrelevant to the match considering all that matters is his AP being high enough to one-shot Lightning.
All in all, your griping about him being 4-D is kinda irrelevant to the match considering all that matters is his AP being high enough to one-shot Lightning.
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Jiren can't permanently kill lightning thanks to her resurrection, Jiren resist time stop but is not immune even Hit was able to slow him down for several seconds that's all lightning needs to kill him plus speed is equalize that means light can buff her self as many she wants to create a gap in speed while still debuffing Jiren.
And me gripping about him being for 4-D can't you even read I'm saying JIREN IS NOT 4-D mayo is the one that keeps bringing up Jiren is 4-D when he is clearly not.
Even if Jiren kills her in the first minutes of battle she's gonna come back again and again and again Jiren can't put her down she can literally use debuff and buf her self plus time stop. I keep addressing time stop but you all seem to conveniently ignore it. Lightnings debuff are instantaneous.
Did you say lightning is far from hax enough lol that shows that you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
And me gripping about him being for 4-D can't you even read I'm saying JIREN IS NOT 4-D mayo is the one that keeps bringing up Jiren is 4-D when he is clearly not.
Even if Jiren kills her in the first minutes of battle she's gonna come back again and again and again Jiren can't put her down she can literally use debuff and buf her self plus time stop. I keep addressing time stop but you all seem to conveniently ignore it. Lightnings debuff are instantaneous.
Did you say lightning is far from hax enough lol that shows that you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
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I was referring to you arguing how Jiren isn't 4-D when it wasn't relevant to the match. I'm well aware that Jiren isn't a 4-D being but there wasn't a need to bring it up.
From what I understood, she can only come back a finite amount of times due to having a limited pool of energy to use. So Jiren could keep killing her either until she runs out of stamina or decides to flee from the battle (especially considering that she's facing what is for all intents and purposes, an unbeatable opponent).
In regards to her debuffs, I'm not saying they wouldn't work, I'm saying she won't get enough debuffs in before Jiren kills her with a glare. Even if she does come back, she would keep getting one-shot until she runs out of energy and Jiren finishes her off.
One more thing: I know she's haxxed, I meant her hax won't be enough to make a difference against him.
From what I understood, she can only come back a finite amount of times due to having a limited pool of energy to use. So Jiren could keep killing her either until she runs out of stamina or decides to flee from the battle (especially considering that she's facing what is for all intents and purposes, an unbeatable opponent).
In regards to her debuffs, I'm not saying they wouldn't work, I'm saying she won't get enough debuffs in before Jiren kills her with a glare. Even if she does come back, she would keep getting one-shot until she runs out of energy and Jiren finishes her off.
One more thing: I know she's haxxed, I meant her hax won't be enough to make a difference against him.
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well... yeah... it' wasn't a struggle... that's my point...AKM sama said:
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You...do know Hit's time manipulation isn't that good, right? And neither is Goku's resistance?AKM sama said:
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I think it's 12 rn so shouldn't that be enough to put this in grace?Planck69 said:
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