Jackythejack
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Izuko Gaen vs. Hank Hill
- Thread starter Jackythejack
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Jackythejack
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I mean it's mid low for a reason and I doubt it's not instantaneous. I know that because it's never come up in a vs debate before.
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most of his stuff is likely not even combat applicable or do we assume he runs around with a friggen propane tank?
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Well if regen isn't debate relevant, this is just a girl with 9-B AP/Dura, vs dude with 9-B AP/Dura and a chainsaw/lead pipe. I really hate discussions like this.
What's Hank's AP for 9-B? Izuko's 4.6e5 joules/0.11 kg of TNT.
What's Hank's AP for 9-B? Izuko's 4.6e5 joules/0.11 kg of TNT.
Jackythejack
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500kj.
I mean skill also comes into account on things like this no?
I mean skill also comes into account on things like this no?
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Well yeah but I hate debates that are just skill, but their skill feats aren't super comparable. We see Izuko slice and dice someone, and we know that she's the smartest character in the show with a vast intelligence, but there aren't really combat skill feats.
While Hank has the more realistic and obviously combat applicable but less impressive "was a boxer once".
While Hank has the more realistic and obviously combat applicable but less impressive "was a boxer once".
Jackythejack
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I mean Butters has given some fairly skill feats for Hank once or twice. Like I said, I'll bring him to the thread so you can compare.
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The thing I was trying to place more emphasis on is that Izuko was only in one "fight", where she just sliced and diced a slower dude to pieces, not telling us much about her combat skill.
I guess we could say that since she's far smarter than Tsubasa Hanekawa who dodged an expert's attacks through sheer intellect/knowledge, maybe that would be a good skill feat?
I guess we could say that since she's far smarter than Tsubasa Hanekawa who dodged an expert's attacks through sheer intellect/knowledge, maybe that would be a good skill feat?
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But yeah, Izuko doesnt have much time to shine outside of flexing her big brains on everyone.
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Hank has military training, and constantly can get ins squabbles with trained fighters such as Bill whos military, Dale, who's trained in martial arts and as a bounty hunter, and Boom, whos a Texas ranger, which requires at least 10 years of law enforcement with many other requirements. (Gotta be in Amazing physical condition too). Which he tends to come out in top. So from the sounds of it, least what o understand comes from her, hanks probably more skilled, and I believe more experienced too.
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To understand Gaen's skill, we need to understand the skill of other people in the cast.
Meme Oshino is a specialist in dealing with the supernatural, and has been for at least 15 years. He stole the heart from a 6-B/5-B vampire without her noticing.
Tsubasa Hanekawa is a genius, who by merely providing her intellectual capacity to one of the weakest supernatural beings, made it arguably the strongest (I say arguably since that's how the story describes it). To the point where she won 20 out of 20 battles against Meme Oshino, using her intellect to not get hit once, and to in fact turn Meme's attacks back against him.
Izuko Gaen taught Meme Oshino, and is far smarter than Tsubasa Hanekawa, and like Meme has been fighting supernatural beings for 15 years.
Even from the start this is well beyond the realm of simple trained martial artists and police officers.
Meme Oshino is a specialist in dealing with the supernatural, and has been for at least 15 years. He stole the heart from a 6-B/5-B vampire without her noticing.
Tsubasa Hanekawa is a genius, who by merely providing her intellectual capacity to one of the weakest supernatural beings, made it arguably the strongest (I say arguably since that's how the story describes it). To the point where she won 20 out of 20 battles against Meme Oshino, using her intellect to not get hit once, and to in fact turn Meme's attacks back against him.
Izuko Gaen taught Meme Oshino, and is far smarter than Tsubasa Hanekawa, and like Meme has been fighting supernatural beings for 15 years.
Even from the start this is well beyond the realm of simple trained martial artists and police officers.
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Sounds like Meme has more experience then. Hank ain't fighting every day of his life or anything like that. So I would say 15 years of fighting supernatural would be more than what hanks done. But those also sounds more like experiences and physical feats rather than Skill feats. NoWhich experience is nice. But skill tends to outrank. I'll say. Tsu definitely sounds more like a mixture of Skill and Intelligence. But Meme sounds like he just has been fighting for a long time and unspecified training. Like in the sense we know he was trained, but we don't know in what and what degree.
An example I think of is the Men in Black guys. We know Jay has been trained, and is dealing with the supernatural, but as far as I can remember, he only has training as a cop.
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Izuko wasn't supernatural last I checked
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Ehh, clearly doesn't sound right. Least from what I heard.
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No, but she's clearly more skilled and has a better weapon. Not much debate to be had, I feel.
Her swords only work on supernatural stuff >.> It does nothing to normal humans
Her swords only work on supernatural stuff >.> It does nothing to normal humans
Jackythejack
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Wait can she not hurt a normal person with it?
Jackythejack
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I can give a regular sword then.
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Yeah that's what I was trying to say near the start of the thread.
I don't think giving her a sword is a good call since she's never had one in the story. However, she did have a wooden training sword that she did her 9-B feat with, so maybe we could give her that?
If we do, Izuko pokes Hank to death with skill gg.
I don't think giving her a sword is a good call since she's never had one in the story. However, she did have a wooden training sword that she did her 9-B feat with, so maybe we could give her that?
If we do, Izuko pokes Hank to death with skill gg.
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Is the wooden sword capable of slicing or piercing? And if it hit a chainsaw, that thing would get shredded since it's made of wood. Even if it's 9-B. Hanks Chainsaw is 9-B too. Plus hank could wrestle it away from her with vastly better LS. Especially if it isn't sharp. And I still don't see how she is clearly more skilled when her feats sound like physicality and experience based. We just know training. But not to what degree. And fighting the supernatural for 15 years is still pretty vague on training wise. Slicing someone up which is more about speed and doesn't say much skill wise. Still seems far fetched to say Shes Clearly more skilled
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That's gonna be a big issue then if his chainsaw hits it. It he grabs it. If it's in his hands, from there, he can just yank it away from her. And his lifting strength could do it quite easily. It wouldn't even take so much skill to get a grip on it, which is all that would need to happen.
Do they imply smarter in the sense of combat, Or just in general? You can be smarter than someone without being as skilled as they are in a fight. And how so expert? Cause that sounds like it can matter extremely. Even if we say she has more skill than a Standard officer or Martial artist. Hanks still as far trained as military. She would need to be way more skilled going up against someone with strength, durability, And LS. Plus his chainsaw being entirely able to screw up her weapon. If the skill difference is only as much as say as much as a Martial artist is to a Officer. Or an Officer is to a Soldier. Then the skill difference doesn't seem like enough.
Do they imply smarter in the sense of combat, Or just in general? You can be smarter than someone without being as skilled as they are in a fight. And how so expert? Cause that sounds like it can matter extremely. Even if we say she has more skill than a Standard officer or Martial artist. Hanks still as far trained as military. She would need to be way more skilled going up against someone with strength, durability, And LS. Plus his chainsaw being entirely able to screw up her weapon. If the skill difference is only as much as say as much as a Martial artist is to a Officer. Or an Officer is to a Soldier. Then the skill difference doesn't seem like enough.
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Do they imply smarter in the sense of combat, Or just in general? You can be smarter than someone without being as skilled as they are in a fight.
I mean, Tsubasa Hanekawa didn't have any prior combat experience, she's just a genius, and Gaen's far smarter than her AND has actual combat experience. It'd be very weird to assume that Tsubasa's smarter in a combat sense.
And how so expert? Cause that sounds like it can matter extremely.
The expert had 15 years of fighting supernatural beings. I already explained this.
If the skill difference is only as much as say as much as a Martial artist is to a Officer. Or an Officer is to a Soldier. Then the skill difference doesn't seem like enough.
The skill difference is between "Does things possible by humans" (basic military training, basic martial arts training, basic police training), and "Does things not possible by humans" (uses pure knowledge to defeat an expert 20 times in a row without getting hit once).
I mean, Tsubasa Hanekawa didn't have any prior combat experience, she's just a genius, and Gaen's far smarter than her AND has actual combat experience. It'd be very weird to assume that Tsubasa's smarter in a combat sense.
And how so expert? Cause that sounds like it can matter extremely.
The expert had 15 years of fighting supernatural beings. I already explained this.
If the skill difference is only as much as say as much as a Martial artist is to a Officer. Or an Officer is to a Soldier. Then the skill difference doesn't seem like enough.
The skill difference is between "Does things possible by humans" (basic military training, basic martial arts training, basic police training), and "Does things not possible by humans" (uses pure knowledge to defeat an expert 20 times in a row without getting hit once).
Jackythejack
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I gave her wooden sword
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So, wouldn't that more back up my point of being smarter doesn't necessarily mean More skilled than said person?
15 years of fighting super natural beings is experience more than it is skill. I again go back to my MIB point. One dude only has police training as far as we know, but deals with the super natural. That's pretty vague in terms of skill. Like, how skilled they are is more what matters, not how long they have been doing it.
Wouldn't say basic. Cause Texas ranger skill scaling. Which requires above and beyond the normal Officer. (As well as 10 years of experience at the least. But my point is for skill right now). And if she had knowledge on them, doesn't that while helpful there, not as much here since she wouldn't have knowledge on what hank knows or fights like.
Also seems like it can depend how the fights approached. Cause if at any point Hank grabs into the sword, she couldn't break it from his grip. Which that happening Once during a fight where she is trying to beat to death someone with a blunt weapon who's tougher and stronger than she is, higher LS by a good amount, and has a good amount of training himself. Doesn't sound like she would take that more times
15 years of fighting super natural beings is experience more than it is skill. I again go back to my MIB point. One dude only has police training as far as we know, but deals with the super natural. That's pretty vague in terms of skill. Like, how skilled they are is more what matters, not how long they have been doing it.
Wouldn't say basic. Cause Texas ranger skill scaling. Which requires above and beyond the normal Officer. (As well as 10 years of experience at the least. But my point is for skill right now). And if she had knowledge on them, doesn't that while helpful there, not as much here since she wouldn't have knowledge on what hank knows or fights like.
Also seems like it can depend how the fights approached. Cause if at any point Hank grabs into the sword, she couldn't break it from his grip. Which that happening Once during a fight where she is trying to beat to death someone with a blunt weapon who's tougher and stronger than she is, higher LS by a good amount, and has a good amount of training himself. Doesn't sound like she would take that more times
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So, wouldn't that more back up my point of being smarter doesn't necessarily mean More skilled than said person?
??????????
I seriously cannot comprehend this.
Tsubasa does a feat through pure intelligence and no combat skill.
Gaen is far smarter AND has actual combat skill.
Why would Gaen not scale?
15 years of fighting super natural beings is experience more than it is skill.
And you get skill from experience.
And if she had knowledge on them, doesn't that while helpful there, not as much here since she wouldn't have knowledge on what hank knows or fights like.
Funny you should say that, Gaen is, again, far smarter than Tsubasa Hanekawa, who inexplicably has an expert's level of knowledge on the supernatural despite not knowing that the supernatural existed two weeks prior. I think it's safe to assume that Gaen would know about police/martial arts/military fighting styles.
Cause if at any point Hank grabs into the sword, she couldn't break it from his grip.
She can still fight without it, you know.
But I also wouldn't quite expect that to happen very often. If Tsubasa could never git hit once, and turn Meme's attacks back against him, I'd expect that Gaen could do the same to Hank.
??????????
I seriously cannot comprehend this.
Tsubasa does a feat through pure intelligence and no combat skill.
Gaen is far smarter AND has actual combat skill.
Why would Gaen not scale?
15 years of fighting super natural beings is experience more than it is skill.
And you get skill from experience.
And if she had knowledge on them, doesn't that while helpful there, not as much here since she wouldn't have knowledge on what hank knows or fights like.
Funny you should say that, Gaen is, again, far smarter than Tsubasa Hanekawa, who inexplicably has an expert's level of knowledge on the supernatural despite not knowing that the supernatural existed two weeks prior. I think it's safe to assume that Gaen would know about police/martial arts/military fighting styles.
Cause if at any point Hank grabs into the sword, she couldn't break it from his grip.
She can still fight without it, you know.
But I also wouldn't quite expect that to happen very often. If Tsubasa could never git hit once, and turn Meme's attacks back against him, I'd expect that Gaen could do the same to Hank.
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Ok. I misread that the first time. My bad. I see your point there.
Not as much skill as you get from actual training especially since Hank fights with people with nearly as much experience, but have actual known training. Ranger has 10 years of required experience at the least. (Boom has more as we know multiple years pass in the show)
That at no point points that they would actually know that fighting style. There's nothing to suggest that she would know. Just because someone's really smart, doesn't mean we can assume they know areas or types of combat they have never acknowledged on screen knowing or fighting with. Military and Police training also isn't super natural in any means. So it's not like they fall under what she would know. And even being a skilled fighter doesn't mean we should jump the gun on saying she would know how they fight. There are at least dozens of martial arts out there. Dozens of fighting styles. You can be skilled and intelligent without knowing how a military, ranger, or officer is trained.
She could. But she is fighting someone stronger, tougher, wielding a chainsaw, higher LS, some good training, all while being disarmed. Was Meme actually equipped with a weapon? Cause it's gonna be hard to turn a chainsaw back on his without getting cut up by it in the first place:
Not as much skill as you get from actual training especially since Hank fights with people with nearly as much experience, but have actual known training. Ranger has 10 years of required experience at the least. (Boom has more as we know multiple years pass in the show)
That at no point points that they would actually know that fighting style. There's nothing to suggest that she would know. Just because someone's really smart, doesn't mean we can assume they know areas or types of combat they have never acknowledged on screen knowing or fighting with. Military and Police training also isn't super natural in any means. So it's not like they fall under what she would know. And even being a skilled fighter doesn't mean we should jump the gun on saying she would know how they fight. There are at least dozens of martial arts out there. Dozens of fighting styles. You can be skilled and intelligent without knowing how a military, ranger, or officer is trained.
She could. But she is fighting someone stronger, tougher, wielding a chainsaw, higher LS, some good training, all while being disarmed. Was Meme actually equipped with a weapon? Cause it's gonna be hard to turn a chainsaw back on his without getting cut up by it in the first place:
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Not as much skill as you get from actual training especially since Hank fights with people with nearly as much skill, but have actual known training
Excuse me? Actually fighting threats for 15 years is more skill than taking some classes, or from doing standard police officer duty for 10 years.
That at no point points that they would actually know that fighting style. There's nothing to suggest that she would know. Just because someone's really smart, doesn't mean we can assume they know areas or types of combat they have never acknowledged on screen knowing or fighting with. Military and Police training also isn't super natural in any means. So it's not like they fall under what she would know.
I already explained this.
Tsubasa had zero prior experience with the supernatural, yet inexplicably had an expert's-level knowledge. Gaen is far smarter than Tsubasa, so she'd presumably also have high-level knowledge of fields she doesn't have any experience in.
She could. But she is fighting someone stronger, tougher, wielding a chainsaw, higher LS, some good training, all while being disarmed.
Slightly stronger. Tougher goes with stronger. Wielding a chainsaw that's equally as strong. Higher LS only useful for disarming. I think you're vastly overplaying the training. Yes, people fight while being disarmed all the time, chainsaws gives some extra range but they're by no means insurmountable.
Was Meme actually equipped with a weapon?
No but he had many objects and techniques specifically designed to counter supernatural beings, and he had time between fights to go away and get new ones, yet he never got them to work. That seems way more threatening than a chainsaw with similar AP.
Hell, do we even know that the chainsaw itself is 9-B? It could just be 9-C like normal chainsaws.
Cause it's gonna be hard to turn a chainsaw back on his without getting cut up by it in the first place
A massive object with a sharp edge that can deal some damage, compared to random knickknacks created to counter your being. One of these seems easier to turn back than the other.
Excuse me? Actually fighting threats for 15 years is more skill than taking some classes, or from doing standard police officer duty for 10 years.
That at no point points that they would actually know that fighting style. There's nothing to suggest that she would know. Just because someone's really smart, doesn't mean we can assume they know areas or types of combat they have never acknowledged on screen knowing or fighting with. Military and Police training also isn't super natural in any means. So it's not like they fall under what she would know.
I already explained this.
Tsubasa had zero prior experience with the supernatural, yet inexplicably had an expert's-level knowledge. Gaen is far smarter than Tsubasa, so she'd presumably also have high-level knowledge of fields she doesn't have any experience in.
She could. But she is fighting someone stronger, tougher, wielding a chainsaw, higher LS, some good training, all while being disarmed.
Slightly stronger. Tougher goes with stronger. Wielding a chainsaw that's equally as strong. Higher LS only useful for disarming. I think you're vastly overplaying the training. Yes, people fight while being disarmed all the time, chainsaws gives some extra range but they're by no means insurmountable.
Was Meme actually equipped with a weapon?
No but he had many objects and techniques specifically designed to counter supernatural beings, and he had time between fights to go away and get new ones, yet he never got them to work. That seems way more threatening than a chainsaw with similar AP.
Hell, do we even know that the chainsaw itself is 9-B? It could just be 9-C like normal chainsaws.
Cause it's gonna be hard to turn a chainsaw back on his without getting cut up by it in the first place
A massive object with a sharp edge that can deal some damage, compared to random knickknacks created to counter your being. One of these seems easier to turn back than the other.
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