Itachi Uchiha vs Kuma (One Piece)

[Ryuga21]

Is there any character who has a more painful life than these two in HST? It is the battle of those who carry heavy loads of unfair nails, only one will win.

• SBA; No prior knowledge;
• 6-C Itachi [First-Key - 4.3GT];
• High 7-A Kuma [upscales >>> 1.78GT];
• Speed is Equal - Battle takes place at Thriller Bark.

Nika Worshiper:

The Renegade Ninja: 7

Inconclusive:

 

[Kachon123]

Following

 

[That_moron2]

Genjutsu doesn't work on Kuma (robot), bfr gg

 

[Ryuga21]

Well, Itachi still has precog and other useful tools

 

[Deceived3596]

Do we know if Kuma still has his biological eyes, optical nerves and brain? I know he was transformed into a cyborg by Egghead but I don't remember if we're given anything in relation to what was actually changed out with metal or cybernetics. Hell, I believe we see Kuma pouring blood from his eyes in some of his more contested fights, so that could imply he still has his actual eyes, brain etc. If blood is pouring from them when he's severely damaged.

 

[Quibster]

It looks like Kuma can BFR Itachi if he wanted to. Thing is, how is Kuma getting past Amaterasu and explosive shadow clones?

Hell, I believe we see Kuma pouring blood from his eyes in some of his more contested fights, so that could imply he still has his actual eyes, brain etc. If blood is pouring from them when he's severely damaged.

tbf I always thought it was the same deal as Franky, although to a much more mentally altered extent-- as to keep him a dog for the World Gov. It's plausible at the very least to say Kuma's brain is intact/present yet physically altered, under the context of being a Cyborg. I agree here.

Do we know if Kuma still has his biological eyes, optical nerves and brain?

Not specifically. I see what you're getting at here, but I don't think it's ever specified that the Sharingan only works on opponents with their original/biological eyes. You could make that case for a fully-fleshed machine, which lacks the cognitive functions (such as a brain + ordinary senses) for Genjutsu to compromise-- but Kuma isn't a full machine; he is a Cyborg.

As for having his original eyes,

Spoiler: One Piece Manga Spoilers

We do see Kuma without his trademark stoic 'cyborg' eyes in the most recent chapters, long before he became a Cyborg. He also retains the memories of his life prior to becoming a Cyborg as well.

Generally, what we do know is that he was altered to become a Cyborg as part of a deal with the World Government. Beyond that, nothing much else in terms of his physiology. There may be some scans in newer chapters in Egghead elaborating on this later, fingers crossed!

 

[Ryuga21]

Do we know if Kuma still has his biological eyes, optical nerves and brain? I know he was transformed into a cyborg by Egghead but I don't remember if we're given anything in relation to what was actually changed out with metal or cybernetics. Hell, I believe we see Kuma pouring blood from his eyes in some of his more contested fights, so that could imply he still has his actual eyes, brain etc. If blood is pouring from them when he's severely damaged.

Kuma is literally a robot without mind or personality. In Marineford he had no sense or personality, that's why he attacked Ivankov, it is also said that he needed to program his mind in order to defend the ship from the straw hats.

 

[Ryuga21]

Thing is, how is Kuma getting past Amaterasu and explosive shadow clones?

Spamming himself at SoL speeds to blitz Itachi. Kuma can also abuse distance with lasers and shockwaves, both of which are dura-neg.

 

[Quibster]

Kuma is literally a robot without mind or personality.

What? Franky outright states that that Kuma is a Cyborg in that scan, which is very fundamentally different from a Robot in one piece terms. We also don't know the extent his cybernetics on his brain, yet recent scans suggest it's still there, along with his five senses-- which Genjutsu affects.

It's flip-floppy to suggest that Genjutsu won't work on Kuma. The notion that a memory wipe null'ing or outright resisting Genjutsu doesn't really hold. Genjutsu affects the five senses, and having no memories or personality doesn't necessarily affect that. The applications vary and it isn't mutually exclusive with Memories and Personality.

Itachi is pretty much just going to force Kuma to perceive what he wants in this case.

 

[That_moron2]

What? Franky outright states that that Kuma is a Cyborg in that scan, which is very fundamentally different from a Robot in one piece terms. We also don't know the extent his cybernetics on his brain, yet recent scans suggest it's still there, along with his five senses-- which Genjutsu affects.

No? Franky having a brain and being a cyborg does not mean all cyborgs have brains. And no recent scans don't suggest that it's still there,
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/onepiece_1092_007.png
If he is acting out of human emotions, then its because of the soul that we know Kuma's fruit has a connection to. And genjutsu isn't Soul manipulation

It's flip-floppy to suggest that Genjutsu won't work on Kuma. The notion that a memory wipe null'ing or outright resisting Genjutsu doesn't really hold. Genjutsu affects the five senses, and having no memories or personality doesn't necessarily affect that. The applications vary and it isn't mutually exclusive with Memories and Personality.

Kuma legit has mind manipulation as a resistance. Can Itachi genjutsu a car?

Itachi is pretty much just going to force Kuma to perceive what he wants in this case.

No.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Itachi put mecha naruto under a genjutsu

All jokes asides though idk if I'd go as far as to compare Kuma to a car. Also what's the time limit on bfr because ninjas can cover countrywide distances in minutes

 

[Quibster]

No? Franky having a brain and being a cyborg does not mean all cyborgs have brains.

Kuma is a Human turned Cyborg just like Franky.

This also doesn't change the fact that we don't know the extent of Kuma's modifications. And like I had stated, Genjutsu isn't reliant on needing to affect Memories and Personality, and has varying applications. Genjutsu in Naruto affects the five senses, of which Kuma still retains. I don't know where you're going with this or what idea you're trying to push with this.

Akainu's "You're (Kuma) just a mindless Puppet" statement is just a hyperbole, and is said in the context of Akainu wondering what Kuma's objectives are. Because, like Akainu stated, he's supposed to be a "mindless puppet".

And no recent scans don't suggest that it's still there,

And there's also nothing to suggest that it isn't there.

Kuma legit has mind manipulation as a resistance.

With the stellar reasoning of "For being a mindless robot" and with no other justification or scans. If you want to really want to push this reasoning, then we should give every Cyborg listed on this site resistance. It's far too flip-floppy and we already know he's not a literal robot.

Can Itachi genjutsu a car?

Do I really need to explain why this is a false comparison?

No.

 

[Deceived3596]

Kuma is literally a robot without mind or personality. In Marineford he had no sense or personality, that's why he attacked Ivankov, it is also said that he needed to program his mind in order to defend the ship from the straw hats.

Being "without mind or personality" isn't evidence of his brain being non-biological. It's specifically brought up that his memories and personality were "wiped", which more so implies a removement of qualities, not removing or changing the fundamental structure which gives existence to those qualities. It's less assumptive to claim he still has his biological brain, but just had his memories and personality wiped from it. Which, makes sense since it's still shown, even after this process is done with, he still bleeds from his eyes and general head area when he's damaged there.

As for the programming statement, can you explain further how this shows Kuma possessing a non-biological brain?

but I don't think it's ever specified that the Sharingan only works on opponents with their original/biological eyes

I believe it's shown that Sasuke's Genjutsu doesn't work against someone with a false eye in the Sasuke Retsuden novel; I could be wrong but I believe i'm probably correct since this was a big topic me and a lot of the main Naruto scalers on this site talked about in VC.

 

[Quibster]

I believe it's shown that Sasuke's Genjutsu doesn't work against someone with a false eye in the Sasuke Retsuden novel;

Yeah this is consistent for the most part. I believe Deidara even has a cybernetic eye that was specifically made to resist Itachi's Genjutsu. Is there context or a scan for the false eye bit? It may help or have some connection.

 

[Deceived3596]

Yeah this is consistent for the most part. I believe Deidara even has a cybernetic eye that was specifically made to resist Itachi's Genjutsu. Is there context or a scan for the false eye bit? It may help or have some connection.

It's chapter 2 of the Sasuke Retsuden manga.

 

[Kidkinsey]

The doctor guy had a glass eye so he wasn't actually "looking" at sasuke to get genjutsu'd

Besides genjutsu discourse. What else do u think factors into this matchup

 

[Quibster]

Also what's the time limit on bfr because ninjas can cover countrywide distances in minutes

Days iirc. And since the battle is on Thriller Bark, Itachi is probably going to be sent across the Grandline and at some random, likely dangerous location.

 

[Kidkinsey]

If itachi is sent flying Way do u think him turning into crows would be a valid counter to stop it. Other then that I can't think of a way for itachi to stop his momentum maybe summoning clones lol

 

[Quibster]

If itachi is sent flying Way do u think him turning into crows would be a valid counter to stop it. Other then that I can't think of a way for itachi to stop his momentum maybe summoning clones lol

I can't think of a way that Itachi would be able to stop it. The moment Kuma comes chooses to BFR on contact they're pretty much instantaneously sent flying. And even if Itachi does break free of it, he'll be sent into a freefall from the sky and into the ocean. It's probably Kuma's main wincon considering the AP difference here and Itachi's precog. I could be wrong though.

 

[Deceived3596]

Until I see evidence of Kuma being capable of negating Itachi's Genjutsu I'm going to vote for him as it's easier for him to get his wincon off faster compared to Kuma's.

 

[Ryuga21]

Genjutsu is not a plausible argument for voting for Itachi.

1. Kuma's brain is driven by programming and commands not biological functions (Kuma receives orders, he does not make decisions, his personality has vanished from his mind - How is Itachi going to put into Genjutsu a consciousness that no longer exists?)

2. Kuma does not have biological eyes. The scan posted above does show blood coming from Kuma's ocular region, but that doesn't mean his eyes haven't been changed. In fact, when the image is zoomed in on Kuma's face, we can see what appears to be the cybernetic core of his left eye — the blood is not coming from his eye, but from his face, as Kuma still has a human part, it is entirely plausible that his cybernetic eye is retained by tendons and muscles (which have clearly been damaged in this scan). There's also is a noticeable difference in Kuma's eyes when he was human, and when he became a Pacifista. After surgery Kuma's eyes do not have pupils, he doesn't blink, his eyes shine and they have a red core.

Kuma is a pacifista and pacifistas themselves can obtain information with their cybernetic eyes and target enemies. Pacifistas are almost entirely based on Kuma, so it is plausible that Kuma shares this same ocular trait.

 

[Kidkinsey]

I can't think of a way that Itachi would be able to stop it. The moment Kuma comes chooses to BFR on contact they're pretty much instantaneously sent flying. And even if Itachi does break free of it, he'll be sent into a freefall from the sky and into the ocean. It's probably Kuma's main wincon considering the AP difference here and Itachi's precog. I could be wrong though.

I was thinking he can stop his momentum by turning into crows or something. That's his only way of "flying"

 

[Quibster]

1. Kuma's brain is driven by programming and commands not biological functions

There is no veracity this claim. Kuma specifically has Surgical Modifications, which does not equate to being a fully fledged robot-- especially since he is a confirmed Cyborg. There is a huge difference. And, again, we do not know the extent of the cybernetics on Kuma's brain. Trying to shoehorn the idea that Kuma lacks any degree of cognitive agency in any capacity is incredibly contradictory to his most recent actions in the manga, no matter how you want to spin it-- also considering the lack of direct evidence that Kuma can resist mind manipulation in the first place.

How is Itachi going to put into Genjutsu a consciousness that no longer exists? (Kuma receives orders, he does not make decisions, his personality has vanished from his mind - How is Itachi going to put into Genjutsu a consciousness that no longer exists?)

By either pointing at, or looking at them. It's also layered. Why do you think that a consciousness is required on an individual who still retains a cerebral nervous system and five senses-- which Genjutsu directly controls?

Genjutsu has also worked on individuals that lacked a consciousness before anyways. A prime example of this is when Jiraiya immobilized Pain with genjutsu. Genjutsu as a whole isn't mutually reliant on affecting consciousness anyways either-- it affects Consciousness and Perception-- with varying applications. Another example of this is when Sasuke fooled Danzo into believing he had another use of Izanagi, by masking Danzo's arm with a fake eye.

Oda has also handwaved that Kuma's mind may still be there ( scan below ). Thus the uncertainty of what you're trying to push at this point in time. I disagree with your suggestions here, and we already know that Pacifistas are Cybernetic Clones of Kuma. There are also Pacifista types, such as the Seraphim, that retain a degree of agency to quantify having a consciousness and individual personality-- and are Cybernetic Clones of the Warlords. Kuma also hasn't had any confirmed, further modifications since the Marineford War-- and it goes without saying that he's considered shovelware by the World Gov. at this point.

2. Kuma does not have biological eyes. The scan posted above does show blood coming from Kuma's ocular region, but that doesn't mean his eyes haven't been changed. In fact, when the image is zoomed in on Kuma's face, we can see what appears to be the cybernetic core of his left eye — the blood is not coming from his eye, but from his face, as Kuma still has a human part, it is entirely plausible that his cybernetic eye is retained by tendons and muscles (which have clearly been damaged in this scan). There's also is a noticeable difference in Kuma's eyes when he was human, and when he became a Pacifista. After surgery Kuma's eyes do not have pupils, he doesn't blink, his eyes shine and they have a red core.

Kuma is a pacifista and pacifistas themselves can obtain information with their cybernetic eyes and target enemies. Pacifistas are almost entirely based on Kuma, so it is plausible that Kuma shares this same ocular trait.

This only really proves that his eyes have been cybernetically altered-- not the integrity of his cerebral nervous system, his optical nerves, or the biological integrity of his brain.

(Kuma receives orders, he does not make decisions, his personality has vanished from his mind

Kuma has actively defied the orders of Akainu, and his former captors at Mary Jois. There's also the scan above that contradicts what you're saying here-- alongside huge outlier to the "immunity to pain manipulation" listed on his profile, seeing as he's showing signs of expressed exhaustion, even recoiling at having his foot disintegrated in that same chapter. It's evident that these are pained reactions, else he wouldn't react so viscerally.

 

[Quibster]

I'm also voting Itachi FRA, alongside Itachi having the AP Advantage, and quicker solutions to ending the fight: such as Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Exploding Shadow Clones.

Until there is concrete evidence of Kuma actively resisting layered mind manipulation and being able to expel Amaterasu, my vote stands.

 

[That_moron2]

This only really proves that his eyes have been cybernetically altered-- not the integrity of his cerebral nervous system, his optical nerves, or the biological integrity of his brain.

It can't affect the nervous system if it can't get through the eyes. Just a glass eye stopped Sasuke's genjutsu which is >>Itachi's at that point.

 

[Quibster]

It can't affect the nervous system if it can't get through the eyes. Just a glass eye stopped Sasuke's genjutsu which is >>Itachi's at that point.

As far as we know, they (Edit: Zansuru's eyes) are eyes which were designed to counter ocular genjutsu-- why else would he have them? Were Kuma's designed to specifically counter ocular genjutsu? Itachi's Sharingan also works by pouring chakra directly into an opponent's eyes, if you consider the context of this-- it also only proves that Glass (to some unspecified extent) can affect the flow of chakra.

Kuma also still gets torched by Amaterasu anyways. And he sure as hell isn't going to be able to extinguish it.

 

[Kachon123]

As far as we know, they are eyes which were designed to counter ocular genjutsu-- why else would he have them?

What?

 

[Quibster]

What?

Zansuru's glass eyes.

 

[That_moron2]

As far as we know, they (Edit: Zansuru's eyes) are eyes which were designed to counter ocular genjutsu

That's an extra assumption.

Itachi's Sharingan also works by pouring chakra directly into an opponent's eyes, if you consider the context of this-- it also only proves that Glass (to some unspecified extent) can affect the flow of chakra.

Which means that Itachi's genjutsu won't work. Kuma can and will AoE spam anyway.

Kuma also still gets torched by Amaterasu anyways. And he sure as hell isn't going to be able to extinguish it.

Kuma can repel abstract objects like pain, Amaterasu is not a problem.

 

[Quibster]

That's an extra assumption.

I mean, you're already backing the assumption that Kuma's eyes-- which aren't at all confirmed to made of glass in the first place-- resists layered mindhax. But sure, I am just assuming after all!

Which means that Itachi's genjutsu won't work. Kuma can and will AoE spam anyway.

So now we're resorting to wanking Kuma's eyes, I guess? The difference here is that Itachi opens with Genjutsu-- and Kuma will be subjected to perception ####ery off the bat-- after which he's going to be completely immobilized. There's no consistency or confirmation behind "kuma's glass??? eyes are going to resist itachi's layered genjutsu because X character's glass eyes from naruto and kuma's are the same". This is just headcanon.

Kuma can repel abstract objects like pain, Amaterasu is not a problem.

Itachi's Amaterasu specifically produces black flames at the focal point of his vision, much like Kakashi's Kamui. Wherever Itachi looks, it will follow or simply engulf Kuma inextinguishable black flames-- which vaporizes steel according to his page.

I also disagree with the ability comparison, since Kuma's ability is classified as Air Manip, whereas Pain is Gravity Manip/TK. Air also cannot extinguish Amaterasu's black flames anyways, nor does Itachi's Amaterasu travel to reach an opponent. Kuma is going to have a bad day if he gets touched by it.

 

[Ryuga21]

is incredibly contradictory to his most recent actions in the manga

Like which ones? The manga has already said clearly that Kuma no longer has a personality, his consciousness was erased and that he needed to be programmed to complete his last mission. If his cognition needed to be manually interfered with by someone external, it follows that Kuma does not have self-cognition. Citing the current chapters of the manga to prove your point is stupid since you don't know the full reasons of why the scenes are occurring, the arc needs to end for your argument to be valid. From what the work has already shown, it would be much more plausible to explain Kuma's current actions through the same programming method that Vegapunk made in his consciousness before erasing it, but this discussion will not get anywhere, since both of us can easily be contradicted by the course of the current chapters.

Kuma has actively defied the orders of Akainu, and his former captors at Mary Jois.

I explained this above. You can't use egghead to argue here, you don't know the real reason why Kuma is disobeying the Tenryuubitos, it could be a previous innate ordering of vegapunk.

Genjutsu has also worked on individuals that lacked a consciousness before anyways. A prime example of this is when Jiraiya immobilized Pain with genjutsu. Genjutsu as a whole isn't mutually reliant on affecting consciousness anyways either-- it affects Consciousness and Perception--

Pain's minds were directly linked to Nagato, Kuma literally no longer has consciousness and his brain works through programs, he is not linked to any biological mind.

Oda has also handwaved that Kuma's mind may still be there ( scan below )

Definitely not.

we do not know the extent of the cybernetics on Kuma's brain.

We don't need to know since the series has already said that he no longer retains any aspect of a consciousness being. When the series makes a point of making Kuma expressionless after being enslaved and having attacked his own allies on government orders. Or maybe you think Kuma was faking it at Marineford and tried to kill Ivankov just for fun.

 

[Quibster]

Like which ones? The manga has already said clearly that Kuma no longer has a personality, his consciousness was erased and that he needed to be programmed to complete his last mission.

Flying across the Grandline, Fighting Akainu and the Holy Guard, directly acting against Akainu's commands, and having the combat-know-how to not #### with Akainu and gtfo'ing out of there. He seems pretty conscious and aware to me.

Citing the current chapters of the manga to prove your point is stupid since you don't know the full reasons of why the scenes are occurring, the arc needs to end for your argument to be valid.

I don't really need your validity, that's not how match threads work. Plus I've made my thoughts and points on this match quite clear. Why are you so invested in this as to make such petty remarks? It's unnecessary. Just count mine and Decieved3596's votes already.

And if you're going push that we wait for an entire arc to finish, while knowing Kuma is playing a crucial part in said arc, then you simply shouldn't have made this match to begin with.

 

[That_moron2]

I mean, you're already backing the assumption that Kuma's eyes-- which aren't at all confirmed to made of glass in the first place-- resists layered mindhax. But sure, I am just assuming after all!

What makes glass special? Layers don't matter if the hax don't activate in the first place.

So now we're resorting to wanking Kuma's eyes, I guess? The difference here is that Itachi opens with Genjutsu-- and Kuma will be subjected to perception ####ery off the bat-- after which he's going to be completely immobilized. There's no consistency or confirmation behind "kuma's glass??? eyes are going to resist itachi's layered genjutsu because X character's glass eyes from naruto and kuma's are the same". This is just headcanon.

Glass is glass, no matter the show. Their is nothing to suggest that those eyes are special.

Itachi's Amaterasu specifically produces black flames at the focal point of his vision, much like Kakashi's Kamui. Wherever Itachi looks, it will follow or simply engulf Kuma inextinguishable black flames-- which vaporizes steel according to his page.

Kuma can repel it the second it touches him. It won't instantly vap him either since he's tougher than steel. Itachi also doesn't open with Amaterasu and could very well get BFR'ed before he uses it.

I also disagree with the ability comparison, since Kuma's ability is classified as Air Manip, whereas Pain is Gravity Manip/TK. Air also cannot extinguish Amaterasu's black flames anyways, nor does Itachi's Amaterasu travel to reach an opponent. Kuma is going to have a bad day if he gets touched by it.

Its also teleportation.

 

[Ryuga21]

Just count mine and Decieved3596's votes already.

Kuma has resistance to mind manipulation in his profile. Why would I count your vote when you contradicts the profile's abilities? Is this legal under Vsthreads rules?

 

[Godernet]

With speed equalized Kuma has to be able to tag Itachi, who is known to be a very cautious fighter, with his Substitution Jutsu, Shadow Clones, Transformation Jutsu to turn into surrounding objects, Sharingan enhanced perception/Analytical Prediction, and his own Instinctive Reactions, along with a vastly superior Battle IQ.

Most of the fight will end up boiling down to Itachi using his very big pool of misdirects and evasive abilities to observe Kuma's arsenal while watching from afar and suppressing his own presence (being cautious and observant rather than proactive is pretty in-character for Itachi especially if he did try looking at Kuma and he doesn't get GJ'd.

In the very likely scenario that Itachi realizes it's not a good idea to get too close to Kuma, he has Amaterasu(Sight based and Kuma has no way to get rid of it), Totsuka Blade(one poke and Kuma gets sealed), or Yasaga Beads (which can travel thousands of kilometers), explosive clones, long-range water and fire style jutsu, etc, etc.

Kuma does have long-range shockwaves and air blasts But with Itachi watching him with his Sharingan he should be to predict it in advance and avoid it all by with substitution or blocking with Susanoo. Not to mention in the unlikely event that Kuma’s AoE or lasers does hit Itachi with something deadly he has at least one do-over button with Izanagi which will just make him even more cautious than before.


Itachi is just too elusive and intelligent to be tagged by Kuma with equal speed and has several long-range wincons. Voting Itachi.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Voting Itachi for Net’s reasoning

 

[SeijiSetto]

Itachi FRA.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Kuma can repel it the second it touches him. It won't instantly vap him either since he's tougher than steel. Itachi also doesn't open with Amaterasu and could very well get BFR'ed before he uses it.

We literally see amaterasu vaporise steel instantly. So tougher than steel is not really a good argument.

I'm voting itachi

 

[Quibster]

Why would I count your vote when you contradicts the profile's abilities? Is this legal under Vsthreads rules?

Because that's how voting on the site works-- and I've already explained why my vote is for Itachi in great detail and context. If you can't take my word for it then ask anyone else.

Also we're a vote away from Grace, I think

 

[karo_senpaii]

Kuma has resistance to mind manipulation in his profile. Why would I count your vote when you contradicts the profile's abilities? Is this legal under Vsthreads rules?

It is not against the rules buddy. Itachi mind manipulation is layered. Kuma has zero answer for it