Issues with Madara's Calc

[Callsign_Castle]

So a summary from my understanding:

Reasons for population in the billions:

-Naruto Earth is "similar to ours"

-mammals

Reasons for literally anything else:

-1st above reason is a false equivalence.

-Scans show Pain explicitly stating wiping out an entire natio (which he uses interchangeably with country, something that is supported by Onoki's wording making an explicit difference between a nation and a village) will kill millions in an instant

-The manga itself literally denies animals playing any part in the chakra consumed through the god tree. Black Zetsu clearly states Kaguya was restored through the collected Human chakra.

-The white zetsu army were actually all the people put under the infinite tsukuyomi the first time, which was only 100,000 people - the exact size of the Zetsu army. Remember this is a planetary range jutsu. The databook raws explai the origin of the Zetsu, and if needed IMade can provide his own translations. It is also explained in the manga by Black Zetsu.

I can continue but we've literally been given all the answers we need by the source.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I'd also like to reply to Shadow's initial reply since i can already see a lot of issues with it.


The Association fallacy works under the premise that the argument is attempted to fuse two unrelated things together to get a fallacious conclusion, this not the case because once again Technology and Population are not separated they are two things functioning with one another in the same way that we can reach conclusion to chemical resolutions when certain elements are put together,It's not a Fallacy it's Objective Observation-based causation that gives us patterns from a a variety of sources to come to a consistent conclusion that's applicable to not only one culture but all cultures given that they share enough human traits.

First things first, quite literally half of your argument falls under Association Fallacies and Golden Mean Fallacies and I'll get into that next. If you could I'd enjoy it if you could provide more proof to your arguments, also there are quite a few jutsu combinations that make no sense scientifically so that argument isn't all that grounded. Also Humans in real life and humans in Naruto definitely have quite a few notable differences. For one we obviously can't create fire out of the blue from our mouths and we don't have any chakra systems. That's pretty silly.


The Naruto Earth and Current Earth share this

Let the Association Fallacies begin.

Humans and their Biology, including their morale.

Again, real Humans and Humans in Naruto have notable key differences between our biological. There's a lot that they can do that we can't, hell they even have a completely different nervous system that real humans lack. Also morale? Morale is soemthing any living creature with enough intelligence can poses so this isn't much of an argument either.


Similar customs and traditions

Aside from traditions from Asian countries and the culture Naruto doesn't really share a lot in common with our own cultures and traditions. There are much, much more cultures and traditions in our real world than there are in Naruto. All Naruto does is take inspiration from oriental culture and adds it's own spin to it making this argument null.


Both Called Earth

This is the biggest flaw in your argument. Previously you were criticizing Damage for using an Association Fallacy but now you wanna pull this type of argument out? There's a lot of pieces of fictional work that refer to their planet as Earth but it's pretty clear they aren't our own earth. Our geography is way different and there are zero correlations between the two.


The Author has outright stated that it's similar to ours


Could you please provide the soruce for this? Regardless even with that statement that doesn't necessarily apply to the human population. Especially considering that our human population is way overblown for a planet our size.


Occam's Razor is the path of the argument with the least amount of assumptions, and ironically enough you're currently assuming a lot more than Damage is considering the vast differences between our earth and the earth in Naruto.

 

[Jvando]

And once again, your understanding is wrong. The argument has never been "Naruto Earth is similar to ours so their population must be the same". I don't even understand how you derived that conclusion from the arguments presented. The argument was that technological advancement and Population growth have a causal relationship and due to the technological advancement in Naruto's world, it follows that their population would have a similar growth.

Additionally, you're acting as if Humans in the Naruto world and Humans in our world have such a completely different structure that they can't be compared. Yeah, no. The chakra system that humans have in Naruto doesn't change the fact that normal humans still need to eat, sleep, drink water, etc. they still have a heart that beats and a stomach to help break down their foods. The chakra system doesn't make them so vastly different that they are incomparable to humans in irl Earth.

Finally, that 100,000 Zetsu argument is wack because, correct me if I'm wrong, the argument is that only 100,000 people were put in IT the first time around...ok and? Clearly people survived because if you are arguing there were only 100,000 people on Earth at the time of IT and all of them were put into IT, How then dis population blossom after the fact?

As an aside, Shadow has time and time explained how the "Kaguya was resurrected with Human chakra" and the "IT can affect and ensnare animals" aren't mutually exclusive. Bringing up the same point over and over and over again doesn't make it any more legitimate than the first time you brought it up.

 

[Jvando]

@AppleLord, my bad then. I will admit I was having a difficult time understanding why you were trying to say so if I came off the wrong way, my apologies.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

"The argument was that technological advancement and Population growth have a causal relationship and due to the technological advancement in Naruto's world, it follows that their population would have a similar growth."

Correlation does not imply causation.

"Additionally, you're acting as if Humans in the Naruto world and Humans in our world have such a completely different structure that they can't be compared. Yeah, no. The chakra system that humans have in Naruto doesn't change the fact that normal humans still need to eat, sleep, drink water, etc. they still have a heart that beats and a stomach to help break down their foods. The chakra system doesn't make them so vastly different that they are incomparable to humans in irl Earth."

But...they do? A person being able to generate pure energy potent to blow up planets would be a scientific marvel. By our standards, they would be humanoid. Sure they can be compared, as much as you can compare yourself to a kryptonian.

"Clearly people survived because if you are arguing there were only 100,000 people on Earth at the time of IT and all of them were put into IT, How then dis population blossom after the fact?"

Survivors of an unknown amount, as well as the families of the Sages which led to the creation of the Senju, Uzumaki, Uchiha, Hyuuga and several other clans that pretty much created the hidden leaf's initial population. Can't speak to the rest of the world.

"As an aside, Shadow has time and time explained how the "Kaguya was resurrected with Human chakra" and the "IT can affect and ensnare animals" aren't mutually exclusive."

The size of the roots chasing humans vs the size of the roots going after animals (which we never see) would be significant. Even then, the entire point of IT was to collect all chakra. If ONLY human chakra was used then it would make no sense at all to expend chakra on creatures you are not collecting chakra from. Yes we've seen the same cat be ensnared and put under genjutsu but following the logic put in place by the show, assuming all animals were strung up actually makes no sense.

 

[Jvando]

Again, what you seem to fail to understand is that the relationship is a causal one, not a correlated one. Our life expectancy would not nearly be anywhere as long as it is now if not four sour advances in technology and medical treatments. Agricultural technologies help produce more food for our booming population. Etc.

Not everyone in Naruto can blow up a planet and you literally skirted around my points without addressing them. My point was never about how much energy they had but about how they function on a similar biological level to humans and this includes reproduction and longevity (except for the Senju and Uzumaki which are both more or less extinct and thus not a part of this debate)

Exactly, an unknown amount. Which is why you shouldn't even use it as a supporting point. It's moot.

My dude, the size of the roots chasing humans varies which is why I went for a slightly average value.

I'll be going to sleep after this.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

So a summary from my understanding:
Reasons for population in the billions:

-Naruto Earth is "similar to ours"

-mammals

Reasons for literally anything else:


-The manga itself literally denies animals playing any part in the chakra consumed through the god tree. Black Zetsu clearly states Kaguya was restored through the collected Human chakra.

-The white zetsu army were actually all the people put under the infinite tsukuyomi the first time, which was only 100,000 people - the exact size of the Zetsu army. Remember this is a planetary range jutsu. The databook raws explai the origin of the Zetsu, and if needed IMade can provide his own translations. It is also explained in the manga by Black Zetsu.

I can continue but we've literally been given all the answers we need by the source.

Black Zetsu's exclusion of mammals in his statement doesn't mean they weren't targetted, he is just specifying that most humans have large amounts of chakra. There is no contradiction that ONLY human chakra is collected, as showcased that

1) Animals were shown to be direct targets of Infinite Tsukiyomi:

https://gyazo.com/d2800c3d4837f0cefd66d763d8d7b624 anime version ((Some people said the tree bark was floating over the cat, no its not it was for the cat.)

https://imgur.com/a/nivYFGf manga version

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111251022/5187551-rinnegan_cats.png Idk why people tried to argue the animals were attacked by Infinite Tsukiyomi but not the Shinju Tree

A well known animal in the verse was also under Infinite Tsukiyomi, Akamaru: https://gyazo.com/c10cf307e4a40a288177975693eea713

http://bleachsoulevolution.com/forum/manga/Naruto/699/8 The manga version doesn't show Akamaru getting out, he's off-screen, but we already know he would've been a target along with everyone else as 1) Other animals were shown 2) He's shown to have chakra 3) There would've been some fuss over a random dog roaming freely while everyone else was taken

The topic of if animals were includes or not has been solved a long time ago, chakra or no chakra I've shown that either or doesn't matter.

TL;DR:

Animals are counted to be targetted in the IT attack, even individuals without chakra can be targets as we know other planets have been sucked dry and the first IT on Earth no one had chakra yet.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

The original concern of the calc being done wrong should've been addressed but now there's too much guesswork that'd have to be involved in this calculation as animals other than humans should be accounted for.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

1. Regardless this literally proves nothing about Naruto. Again, the question that was answered was about Naruto's technology, not everything about their world. Even then, trying to match the timeframe of Naruto's technological advancements with ours would make this point make even less sense, like you'd be suggesting people went from swords and armor with a population of less than a billion globally to cellphones and several billion people in less than a century.

2. Except the energy they produce is directly tied to their biology. They have organs that produce chakra and an entire circulatory system for it. As well as genetic mutations that allow them to do all sorts of things classified as magical.

3. You don't even see the irony in this response at all.

4. Reread my last point again for my stance on this animal thing.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

The size of the roots chasing humans vs the size of the roots going after animals (which we never see) would be significant. Even then, the entire point of IT was to collect all chakra. If ONLY human chakra was used then it would make no sense at all to expend chakra on creatures you are not collecting chakra from. Yes we've seen the same cat be ensnared and put under genjutsu but following the logic put in place by the show, assuming all animals were strung up actually makes no sense.

Infinite Tsukiyomi doesnt require chakra from the user to control the tree and gather up all of its targets, its something done on its own. Chakra overtime made it to pretty much any animal on the planet from as I stated before: birds, cats, dogs, snakes, rodents but bears too.

Kishimoto showcased animals being affected and caught intentionally to show that EVERYTHING with chakra, including animals, will be taken into affect of the jutsu. That alone closes the statement that the planet will pretty much be left empty. There have also been other places attacked by Shinju Tree and are sucked dry. This still circles to the conclusion that chakra isn't necessary for Infinite Tsukiyomi to take place.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Madara already absorbed the tree and he did it through a jutsu, which consumes chakra. I also doubt every animal has chakra as several animals were wrapped up but only human chakra was collected.

 

[YungManzi]

So humans have different enough biology in Naruto that their birth rates would be incomparable to the real world simply because they have chakra?

These arguments are getting absurd.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Because they have an entire biological system dedicated to the circulation and creation of chakra, literally pure energy.

Have you not taken a biology class to understand how species are classified? They would be in the same genus as us but an entirely different species.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

Madara already absorbed the tree and he did it through a jutsu, which consumes chakra. I also doubt every animal has chakra as several animals were wrapped up but only human chakra was collected.

Madara isn't using his Chakra and energy to tackle every thing on the planet, and

Even things that don't use chakra still have it. Rock Lee has chakra, can't utilize it to perform ninjutsu. All other non-ninja still have chakra, there is no reason animals wouldn't also have chakra. if its been so long that A) All humans on Earth have chakra, it should also have been more than enough time for B) All animals to have chakra as well.


However they did it over time, its made very clear all humans have chakra. I couldn't imagine a factor that animals would somehow selectively avoid mating those with chakra.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

On the topic of humans in Naruto being biologically different that argument should be shut down. In morale and physilogically, humans in the Naruto Earth are damn the same other than the extra system in which chakra flows through.

Non-ninja have been shown to be the same as average humans in real life. They as well, share plenty emotional similarities for whoever brought that up. There's no weird tendency that Naruto Human's have that are exclusive to them and actual Humans have.

Even with geography being different, the humans are pretty copy and paste from what we behave like in real life. Desires, survival, and all other emotions that come with how Humans often behave.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

Lastly the conversation on what method to calculate how many Humans are on Earth in Naruto shouldn't boil down to how many ninja are available in the armies.

& Pains quote on nations & villages doesn't necesarily count the entire planet, it could be a specific area.

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0374-012.png

Pain first states: "In a flash, millions of people can be wiped out-- AND Mankind would quake in terror." This statement doesn't mean all at once, and it doesn't go directly with "All nations, all villages".

What Pain is saying is: The tailed beast can be used to cause destruction, when villages see how powerful the technique is they will quake and all nations and villages will be under our ((Akatsuki))'s threat."

To clairfy, no where here does it confirm all of the population only makes up to millions. It's only stated millions at a time can be wiped.

This quote from the manga is being misused to lowball the population of the planet to millions when very easily looking at the technology of the time period brings a bette reading of how large the population can be.


The coorelation of technological advancements easily matches up to how far a civilization can be in size. The better the medicine, the more chances of survival.

Along with this the "Life expectancy of a ninja being up to 30" quote was also misused-- this was only because at the time of war people we're being killed off that quickly. Even at that time, the technolgy must have not been good enough for people to live extended lives anyways.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...rome..69i57.3559j1j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If peope picked up a book or just researched online the connection of advanced technology and medicine lines up perfectly with how much a civilization can go. In the 1900s theres a good reason why the population of many countries that became colonized and modernized took a huge boost in how many people lived and for how long they lived.

 

[Damage3245]

@LucyyXNyuXHana; you don't need to spam posts on the thread.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Prince of Counters

> First things first, quite literally half of your argument falls under Association Fallacies and Golden Mean Fallacies and I'll get into that next. If you could I'd enjoy it if you could provide more proof to your arguments, also there are quite a few jutsu combinations that make no sense scientifically so that argument isn't all that grounded. 'Also' Humans in real life and humans in Naruto definitely have quite a few notable differences. For one we obviously can't create fire out of the blue from our mouths and we don't have any chakra systems. That's pretty silly.

Literally, nothing I posted falls under the association fallacy, association fallacy once again implies getting a fallacious result by comparing two unrelated things in the appeal of emotion, mine is through the scientific method that is applicable to any culture, also the golden mean fallacies is also not applicable here, not once do i assert the correct answer is in the middle, I outright assert that this is the way to do it the only thing I said was we give a low end for the population because Estimations is a thing and told the OP that you could calculate it without using the population method if he subjectively though it was Inferior because there are multiple ways to calculate it.

You are Artificially creating Fallacies either through misinformation or to purposely discredit an argumentation in bad faith, I'm hoping it's the former.

> also there are quite a few jutsu combinations that make no sense scientifically so that argument isn't all that grounded.

Dark Matter, The placebo effect, Tetraneutrons all don't make scientifically sense should we suddenly stop using the scientific method? No. also this can be applied to every fictional universe yet we apply the scientific method, Ki is treated like lasers and Lightspeed, lightning can be dodged by humans, there are smoke trailed explosions in space, there is sound in space.characters can absorb stars, they can destroy celestial bodies with their eye lasers..there are spirits that change the weather, none of this is scientifically possible yet we apply the scientific method to the things that are similar to ours, why is basic biology and life suddenly excluded from this.


The Naruto Earth and Current Earth share this>Let the Association Fallacies begin.

This is a massive fallacy because your cherry-picking a single thing to discredit an argument, this would be the association fallacy on its own but it's not the root of my argument, my argument relies on the scientific method that doesn't care about arbitrary names or traditions, this is merely to highlight the already clear parallels to our world that are down to a T that is there to supplement and give weight to the main argument.


> Again, real Humans and Humans in Naruto have notable key differences between our biological. There's a lot that they can do that we can't, hell they even have a completely different nervous system that real humans lack

having a deviation doesn't suddenly deflect the huge amounts of similarities, this is even a worse argument when you realize that the chakra that humans use isn't even natural considering Kaguya. someone getting hit by radiation and having mutations doesn't suddenly stop them from being human when they still share the majority of similarities with humans.

> Aside from traditions from Asian countries and the culture Naruto doesn't really share a lot in common with our own cultures and traditions

Asian traditions and countries make up a large amount of our complete culture, now you're just arguing that because Naruto doesn't cover all our cultures it is not the same, which is a strawman by the way as I never asserted that they cover all our traditions and culture, I could have chosen 2 obscure cultures or traditions and my point would still stand.

> Naruto doesn't really share a lot in common with our own cultures and traditions

this can only be interpreted in three ways and all are wrong, so pick 1.

1. This assertion is any oxymoron to your first point, ultimately making it self defeating.

2. You're asserting that your culture whatever it is, is the same as mine and because Naruto doesn't share our culture it's not applicable therefore putting the value of your culture over another, you realize I can just counter this argument by saying Naruto shares a lot in common with my culture, especially if my culture is based on the Japanese culture? meaning you assumed the person opposed to the argument but okay.

3. Their similarities are the minority oppose to differences, in which case no, literally only the Shinobi system is different and that has more to do with how they deal with military force, that's like saying our own world doesn't share similarities with one another because Navy seals or whatever are trained a certain way.

here are some similarities.

• Hand Signs are based on the Chinese Zodiac signs

• Their Elemental assertions are based on Asian mythology

• Their Burial rituals

• the share similar customs such as birthdays

• They have recreational activities like drinking alcohol, partying, playing sports like kick the can, shogi ect.

• They share gender roles in regards to masculinity and femininity, such as males being the head of the clan"see the Uchiha", girls being associated with pink and cute things and many other stereotypes including parenting, these are all things exclusive to humans and their culture.

• Importance of friendship to overcome struggles, which is heavily rooted in late 1990's Japanese ideology where working together as unit for the better of the country was heavily shaped by decade commonly known as the lost decade which was the result of the bursting economic bubble that was 1980's japan that had a large focus on Individualism.

I can go on and on but I'm sure you get my point.

also your morale is heavily shaped by your culture and tradtion, which is why some cultures have cannabalism because value is entirely different between them but i digress.

> All Naruto does is take inspiration from oriental culture and adds it's own spin to it making this argument null

and Japanese is literally a spin-off of Chinese culture with its own spin, doesn't negate the argument or the similarities.

>This is the biggest flaw in your argument. Previously you were criticizing Damage for using an Association Fallacy but now you wanna pull this type of argument out? There's a lot of pieces of fictional work that refer to their planet as Earth but it's pretty clear they aren't our own earth. Our geography is way different and there are zero correlations between the two.

No, it's not an association fallacy because it's not the root of my argument, your cherry-picking. if someone asserted that people with red eyes (argument sake) stole money because another person now in jail had red eyes stole something that would be an association fallacy, however if there is a scientific breakthrough that shows people with red eyes have a chemical reaction that causes them to steal it's no longer an association fallacy but Objective observation, picking out arguments in a vacuum when they are not intended to be read that way is a dishonest way of rebutting something, the intent with the word earth here coupled with everything else implies the Author sees his fictional earth as being very similar to ours.

> Could you please provide the source for this? Regardless even with that statement that doesn't necessarily apply to the human population.

I already did in my first post, also yes technology will shape the population as easy as that, we literally apply this in real life to find out estimations of the population dating back 10 000 years, this is not a new concept.

with that being said this is my last post on the thread because it's getting tiresome to cover the same points whenever someone new pops in and attempts to strawman me, not only that but having to write these walls of text are annoying and the discussion being derailed by covering the same points over and over again despite there being an agreed consensus and baseline to work off that brought to fruition Damage's intention it's just honestly distasteful because it derails the intent meaning the threads never go anywhere which is the opposite of what OP and most members want, if anyone wants to ask me anything or whatever feel free to post on my wall. but until then peace out.

 

[Rocker1189]

I agree with shadow, jvando and others.

Funny that "issues" like this only op up with Naruto (just like the "calc stacking" thread).

It is clear that the jutsu affects even animals so really 7.7 billion is a massive low-end considering that. Kishi wrote Naruto to have the same attributes as real life Earth, only difference being magical ninja bs that make normal humans useless as fighters (that is why you would never have millions of ninja fighters, not to mention not every ninja actually gets to be a good fighter and you could end up a low level Genin your entire life).Konoha is just a village in a large nation. It is essentially a military base. Their tech is extremely above ours in some ways (chakra canon?) and not to high in others like travel because ninja do not need them as stated in a quote by Kishimotto himself. Same thing with guns he literally compared kunai to guns in the same quote:

"It would actually take too long to really go nitty-gritty into details, but for example one of the things I focused on was that anything that's NOT possible to recreate, or to do, using ninjutsu, ninja skills, I would not develop for Naruto's world. So no cars. Because they have shuriken, the throwing stars, there are no guns either. So there were certain things I had clearly in my head that I didn't want to have available in their worldview."

Source: https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2015-10-14/masashi-kishimoto-at-new-york-comic-con/.94186

thanks to Jvando.

I dont know why people are saying anything about tree height? The calc does not have tree height involved anywhere, regardless of the height of the tree the calc would be exactly the same.

My conclusion: 7.7 billion people is a huge low-end. Since it affects practicallty all creatures apart from maybe microscopic stuff. Thus I am fine with the 7.7 billions people end. This is also ignoring giant creatures btw. If people want to go for different number of people it would have to have better reasons that what has been brought up which basically boils down to:

Its not Earth.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; the previous calc on Madara's profile did use the tree height in the calc.

Also, we're not going to be using 7.7 billion people for any of the ends. We're already agreed on different ends for total population.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker1189; the previous calc on Madara's profile did use the tree height in the calc.
Also, we're not going to be using 7.7 billion people for any of the ends.

Yes I know and that is not what anyone on the Naruto side is arguing.

Well I dont really care, I am basically saying that I think that 7.7 billion is a low end based on how we know the IT works.

Also another point, people are talking about the massive war and Naruto's population, yet we dont know how many people were killed, it was not on the level of the 4th war and ninja were most likely the main casualties yet in WW2 85 million people died.

 

[YungManzi]

Considering the population of humans to animals (And factoring in that a lot of animals in Naruto are much bigger than irl animals), any number in the single digits is a huge lowball tbh.

Edit: I don't have a problem either way though.

 

[Damage3245]

We do know that not every animal was captured by Infinite Tsukuyomi / Shinju. Sasuke was able to summon his Hawk to him while in Kaguya's dimension, and his Hawk hadn't been affected by Infinite Tsukuyomi.

 

[Rocker1189]

We do know that not every animal was captured by Infinite Tsukuyomi / Shinju. Sasuke was able to summon his Hawk to him while in Kaguya's dimension, and his Hawk hadn't been affected by Infinite Tsukuyomi.

Considering he summoned it to another dimension, this does not mean anything, for all we know it was in fact captured but got teleported out. Summoning is space time manipulation.

In other words, no we dont know that at all. In fact we know the complete opposite as per Madara's words.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; even if it was (which there is no evidence of) the Hawk would still presumably have been under the effects of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. The only known way of undoing the IT was the method that Sasuke and Naruto did.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker1189; even if it was (which there is no evidence of) the Hawk would still presumably have been under the effects of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. The only known way of undoing the IT was the method that Sasuke and Naruto did.

We have no evidnce of your proposal either. Again we do not know that. It was in a completely different dimension, tsukuyomi could have lost its hold on it. Yeah that is the only way to undo the IT on the entire population, you are just making up random limitations based on shakey reasoning with nothing backing it up. And pretending that we "know" how it works. And you going to next ask me "why did they not summon th eentire population of Earth to another dimension?"

 

[YungManzi]

So Rocker you're saying that IT could have been broken because it wasn't on earth, therefore outside of IT's range?

Might make some amount of sense, but to answer a question like that there's this....Was Toneri under the effects of IT at this time?

 

[Rocker1189]

So Rocker you're saying that IT could have been broken because it wasn't on earth, therefore outside of IT's range?
Might make some amount of sense, but to answer a question like that there's this....Were Toneri's and his people under the effects of IT at this time?

Yup that is what I am saying. Of course its not concrete but I believe it makes sense, they are a dimensional distance away, literally an infinite distance. It is not unlikely in the least.

Good question, we dont know. I thin his people were dead at the time anyway so at most Toneri was affected.

 

[Damage3245]

No. I just think that too many of the additional assumptions being insisted upon here are coming from a place of speculation instead of calcing what we only explicitely know about.

We don't know for a fact that every species of mammal, reptile, amphibian, bird, fish, insect, etc, etc. was captured by the roots of the Shinju.

We don't know what the proportion of each species would be per root even if they were? Was there an average of two hundred cats per root? Twenty whales? Eighty eagles? That would involve a whole lot of speculation and unwarranted assumptions.

If we're going to get rid of shakey reasoning here, let's dismiss the idea that Madara also extended the roots to capture 130 billion mammals.

 

[YungManzi]

Even if that's the case Damage. Any reasonable percentage would still put the total number above the single digits.

 

[Rocker1189]

No. I just think that too many of the additional assumptions being insisted upon here are coming from a place of speculation instead of calcing what we only explicitely know about.
We don't know for a fact that every species of mammal, reptile, amphibian, bird, fish, insect, etc, etc. was captured by the roots of the Shinju.

We don't know what the proportion of each species would be per root even if they were? Was there an average of two hundred cats per root? Twenty whales? Eighty eagles? That would involve a whole lot of speculation and unwarranted assumptions.

If we're oing to get rid of shakey reasoning here, let's dismiss the idea that Madara also extended the roots to capture 130 billion mammals.

Yes we do, every living creature is affected as stated an shown. You are the person saying we dont know that, most you could argue is for extremely insignificant creatures.

we would just go with the average mass a root can take, 32 humans find average mass, average mass of every creature, easy, but then again I literally stated that I believe the 7.7 billions is a fine low end. based on what we do know.

No lets not because we know he did.

 

[YungManzi]

We also have statments of God Trees life wiping, iirc.

 

[Rocker1189]

Even if that's the case Damage. Any reasonable percentage would still put the total number above the single digits.

Exactly.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

So IT affected all living things on earth, Toneri on the moon, and the tree strung up all the living things on earth?

 

[Rocker1189]

Yes based on evidence, though cant say anything for Toneri.

 

[Damage3245]

Logically speaking Toneri shouldn't have been affected because he lived inside of the Moon, and the IT was projected from the Moon's surface back towards the Earth.

 

[Rocker1189]

^Makes sense and I agree, though as shown in Boruto he can(and seems to do so currently) live on the moons surface

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

There is no actual proof it strung up every single animal on earth like at all.

 

[Damage3245]

@Sigurd. Basically what I've been saying.

People are extrapolating too hard from little bits of evidence and acting like their conclusions are solid facts from the manga.

 

[Rocker1189]

There is no actual proof it strung up every single animal on earth like at all.

Based on the fact that we know that every lving being was under IT and for some reason we are assuming the tree only selected a few of those animals to be strung up, a single digit billion is a massive low end.