Issues with Madara's Calc

[Jvando]

Yeah because that wasn't my claim.

My claim is that population growth naturally follows technological advancement not that the population of Naruto is the same as earth's whe a certain piece of technology was invented. I'm using Earth as a baseline to judge this since that's the only metric I can go off of.

Honestly, you can use this argument to say that any fictional Earth isn't earth sized just because it is called "Earth".

 

[YungManzi]

No Damage to me it's more like;

1) You're more likely to survive natural disasters and disease the more advanced your civilization is (for obvious reasons). These things being the leading causes of death among humans, and the only things that could really harm population growth (On a world-wide scale).

2) Since humans in naruto are similar to or exactly the same as humans in the real world biologically, it is very safe to assume they would have similar growth rates.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando + @YungManzi; I could see where you're coming from with population growth rates but the main issue is figuring out what the total population would be - and it could still be lower than IRL Earth's even with comparable growth rates.

We know that several decades before the story started the various nations were in an era of constant bloodshed where the lifespan of an adult was no more than 30 and children were heavily affected by warfare. And that even after that the world suffered three World Wars.

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando + @YungManzi; I could see where you're coming from with population growth rates but the main issue is figuring out what the total population would be - and it could still be lower than IRL Earth's even with comparable growth rates.

We know that several decades before the story started the various nations were in an era of constant bloodshed where the lifespan of an adult was no more than 30 and children were heavily affected by warfare. And that even after that the world suffered three World Wars.

First of all, the average life span of Adults was low not because of anything other than the fact that they were constantly sent to war and killed. Additionally, it has been explained numerous times before that even the biggest Wars that we have had in irl haven't been able to make any significant impact on population growth. Stop trying to use that as an argument.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; I must disagree with you here. It was stated that the lifespan of both Shinobi AND civilians was around 30 years.

There is no reason to think that civilians were mostly unaffected from the wars.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Damage

NO.

The Association fallacy works under the premise that the argument is attempted to fuse two unrelated things together to get a fallacious conclusion, this not the case because once again Technology and Population are not separated they are two things functioning with one another in the same way that we can reach conclusion to chemical resolutions when certain elements are put together,It's not a Fallacy it's Objective Observation-based causation that gives us patterns from a a variety of sources to come to a consistent conclusion that's applicable to not only one culture but all cultures given that they share enough human traits.

The Naruto Earth and Current Earth share this

• Humans and their Biology, including their morale.

• Similar customs and traditions

• Both Called Earth

• The Author has outright stated that it's similar to ours

Occam's razor will do the rest.

The only argument that is left is that we cant apply the scientific method to a Fictional world because their rules could be completely different, which is a bad argument because this standard can be applicable to every part of this wiki.

Then we shouldn't use calcs because every part of the calculation relies on the assumption that the world is comparable to ours, which includes, velocity, size, shape, weight the material so on and so forth.

we shouldn't use any statements because one could simply argue that the statement only works in the context of the said Fictional universe.

"Oh character is stated and moves at lightspeed what if light speed is only hypersonic in this universe"

then the entire wiki would fundamentally be pointless.

One could argue that it shouldn't be used because of the Information we have at our disposal which could give us Inaccurate results but that's more to do with the Available information, not the method.

 

[Damage3245]

@Shadow; I get the argument - I just feel that it would be a lot more applicable to series that are set on IRL Earth in the past instead of a completely fictional world.

But okay, I'll roll with it.

How about - to simplify it - we go with two ends; a Low End of 1,000,000,000 as a reasonable baseline, and a High End of 5,840,324,240 as that was the population of the Earth when Naruto was first created. Sounds good?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

yeah, that sounds fine.

 

[Jvando]

Yeah, I agree

 

[RegisNex1232]

Not really? It's a massive assumption based on feelings rather than any objective facts. If there is no proof then why should we make assumptions that basically go "Well, they have TVs, therefore there are X number of people"? Since when is such shoddy reasoning allowed in calcs?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

because the argument isn't "they have TV's, therefore, X Number of people"

stop attacking a man made of straw.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It is one of the many to try and use IRL population numbers and growth as a calc input value. Not the best way to make a calculation.

You're going off on tangents to try and justify a made up number just because you think it's right. When there's no conclusive evidence either way. Why make such an assumption in the first place?

 

[Mindovin]

What about the animals? Are they going to included?

 

[JohnHendrix212]

The animals, or at least mammals, should be taken into account.

 

[Jvando]

The animals, or at least mammals, should be taken into account.

I have a method that I'll use but the results won't be crazy tbh using population or all mammals. Of course that also depends on timeframe which is a whole other issue

 

[Damage3245]

In the manga we only saw cats being affected.

In the anime I believe we saw cats and dogs being affected.

Even if we take them into account, changing that up to "taking every single mammal species into account" is a big leap. It would require too many assumptions.

 

[Jvando]

...do you expect kishimoto to cycle through every animal? Clearly, the point was to show that animals were affected. Whatever though, I'll do my thing and you can do yours. I'll factor in all the ends.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll post my version later today. Fortunately I don't think I need the size of the Shinju for my method.

 

[AppleLord]

Aren't the roots holding 50+ ninjas per root? Wasn't Jigen on Earth when this happened? Is Jigen immune to infinite Tsuyumi? Do we even have evidence that it affected the entire planet and not just the known continent? The moon cannot shine on both parts of the world at the same time.

 

[AstralKing7]

In the manga we only saw cats being affected.

In the anime I believe we saw cats and dogs being affected.

Even if we take them into account, changing that up to "taking every single mammal species into account" is a big leap. It would require too many assumptions.

First of all cats aren't the only animals with chakra obviously. You know this. The whole point of the God tree was to steal chakra. We know for a fact YYH at frogs and snakes and other animals have chakra.

Like what's the point of your argument??

At this point you're just ignoring context

 

[Omimi]

even if u want to low ball

u still have to count animals aswell

and animals number >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> human population

 

[Damage3245]

@AppleLord; since the light can go through buildings it's not unreasonable that it could shine through the planet itself.

Though what Jigen's status was during these events is unknown.

@AstralKing7; by point is including animals into the equation requires even more assumptions.

 

[AppleLord]

How do we know it went through the building and not an offscreen window? The tree would have need to destroy set building anyway, the roots wouldn't wrap the human otherwise.

 

[Jvando]

Madara literally days that the light reflecting off the moon "Pierces through shadows...nothing can hide from it" and then we see scenes of individuals indoors getting affected. Seriously, stop trying to add assumptions that don't need to be added.

 

[AppleLord]

Madara's statements are contradictory at best. He also said to be Immortal but then admitted that Might Guy almost killed him. Light can go through shadows that's normal. Is there any evidence it went through a wall? Like is there a panel of the light phasing through walls on panel? Also is anyone gonna ignore that each root haves 50+ shinobi in it?

 

[Jvando]

Madara's statements are contradictory at best. He also said to be Immortal but then admitted that Might Guy almost killed him. Light can go through shadows that's normal. Is there any evidence it went through a wall? Like is there a panel of the light phasing through walls on panel? Also is anyone gonna ignore that each root haves 50+ shinobi in it?

A man got cocky and spoke smack before he got his ass handed to him; what is new? This is Madara describing the technique to literally no one but himself. If you can't take Madara's words at face value, that's not on me, that's on you.

No one ignored it the first time and that value is a gross exaggeration. I've counted and most roots contain a little above 30 while there was one I counted that had around 47 or something. I'm scaling from a root that had 36 which is a decent enough middle ground. Just as it's not accurate to use the highest possible value, it not accurate to use the lowest possible value either.

 

[AppleLord]

How would Madara know the whole mechanic of the ability that he just acquired? Black Zetsu said that everything on the tablet was a lie, and that he molded the ninja word, and the rules of the Infinite Tsukuyumi written on the tablet were also a lie.

 

[Jvando]

How would Madara know the whole mechanic of the ability that he just acquired? Black Zetsu said that everything on the tablet was a lie, and that he molded the ninja word, and the rules of the Infinite Tsukuyumi written on the tablet were also a lie.

No, he did not. I will attribute what you said to ignorance but if such is the case, please read up on the topic before commenting. Zetsu notes that he edited the words around to essentially make his goal of manipulating the Uchiha easier. He never states that he rewrote the entire tablet and he never mentions that he edited the description of the technique. You're unnecessarily nitpicking a couple sentences Madara said to himself based on nothing. Not to mention, there's no reason for Black Zetsu to lie about the fact that the Light Can penetrate through all substances. In fact, it would be a pretty large hole in Madara's plan to ensnare everyone with chakra if the Light couldn't even reach places like houses. Madara said what the technique does and there's no reason to assume he was lying to himself nor is there any logical reason to assume Black Zetsu lied to him.

 

[AppleLord]

He rewrote how the Infinite Tsukuyumi was the path to save the Uchiha. Yeah, that's not how it works, but thanks for proving my point. The light not going through walls isn't a problem since people are gonna go outside to see what's happening anyway, is not like someone told them to stay inside. Madara speaks to highly of himself. Besides the light didn't affected everyone on Earth the first time Kaguya used the technique, and "humans" without chakra existing post-Kaguya supports that Infinite Tsukuyumi can't reach everywhere in the world. Are you seriously suggesting that everyone on Earth are Kaguya's children? Like incest? Huh? And I am not talking about the anime fillers made by Kishimoto but the manga itself. The manga said Kaguya used the infinite Tsukuyumi once.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

Madara's statements are contradictory at best. He also said to be Immortal but then admitted that Might Guy almost killed him. Light can go through shadows that's normal. Is there any evidence it went through a wall? Like is there a panel of the light phasing through walls on panel? Also is anyone gonna ignore that each root haves 50+ shinobi in it?

1) Infinite Tsukiyomi will reach all of the planet: https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111251022/5187551-rinnegan_cats.png

Inifite Tsukiyomi & The Shinju Tree's main goal is for humans with chakra ((as stated by Black Zetsu)) but also will target any living organism in general. It's been shown to suck planets dry, and to target mammals. We know in the Naruto verse that many different kinds of animals have chakra: dogs, ferrets, birds, snakes, cats.

A lowball of 1,000,000,000 to 5billion is not acceptable as we know the Shinju Tree will attack animals aswell, easily spiking the number to 130,000,000,000 on just mammals alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_mammals_by_population#targetText=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20the,world%20is%20about%20130%20billio.

Two things to keep in mind with that: We do know Shinju Tree target non-chakra because

A: Kaguya did it before Earth inhabitants even had chakra, which is from ninshu & the ten tails

B: Many other planets in the Narutoverse do not specify to have chakra-infused inhabitants and have already been sucked dry by the Shinju Tree. Chakra as I said before is really an Earth unique thing in the Narutoverse.

2) the hidden hidden places like https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Ryūchi_Cave & https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Mount_Myōboku ?

These places do exist on Earth. They have a plethora of non-mammals with chakra and would be targets of Infinite Tsukiyomi.

https://i.imgur.com/lffgARt.png

Ryuchi Cave for snakes is only a few days from Konoha as shown in the Boruto anime he made it there himself on foot. ((Orochimaru and Kabuto have already been to this place before as well regardless))


3) The only counter to IT is rinnegan, or being undead. We know the Shinju Tree spread to take over an entire planet because Momoshiki and other Otsutsuki have done this already to many other planets.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/u...hiki_and_kinshiki_by_fu_reiji_dbg1mly-pre.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11133/111338565/6782243-3914139974-2000

"Every thousand years, a God Tree produces a "chakra fruit" (ÒâüÒâúÒé»Òâ®Òü«Õ«ƒ, Chakura no Mi), which human legend holds are never to be touched.[2] Members of the Ōtsutsuki cla travel through dimensions in search of God Trees so that they can consume these fruits and gain their powerful chakra for themselves.[1] Some Ōtsutsuki, such as Momoshiki and Kinshiki, harvest the God Tree's fruit until it and its respective planet die, at which point they go looking for a new one."

 

[Jvando]

I have no idea how you are possibly conflating "rewrote how the IT was the path to save the Uchiha" with "Lied about the details of the technique" because those two aren't the same thing and your point is still null. How does humans without chakra support anything you are saying? But regardless, all humans now have chakra and we aren't talking about 1000 years ago in the series.

Huge strawman because not once did I ever say that everyone on Earth are Kaguya's children. Stop putting words in my mouth and why the heck did you even bring up incest?

Again, if you can't believe that Madara has knowledge about his technique despite him telling you how he can ensnare the world, that's a you problem. I can't help you with that.

 

[AppleLord]

Jvando misinterpreted my entire post and ranted about something unnecessary, and unrelated to my post.

That is resonable evidence, @LucyyXNyuXHana.

There's still the "bodies" x "roots" = ?

Our friend about suggested "36" bodies as middle ground x 1 root = ?

Right now, in terms of mass, there are currently about 75 billion tons of living things (biomass) on Earth. Assuming Infinite Tsukuyumi affects "living beings" that don't possess chakra, and beings that do possess chakra alike, we can make an estimated guess of how many roots there are in total.

That's about 2,083,333,333 including sea live, but now in terms of diversity, there are more than 1.5 million species of plants, animals, fungi, lichen, and bacteria documented on Earth. Now we remove that number.

We have about 2,081,333,333 roots, minus the x2 diversity for each plant.

How would this affect the calc itself?

 

[AstralKing7]

Did u just count fungi and bacteria and lichen???? Wtf

 

[RegisNex1232]

Now we're counting irrelevant stuff to try to inflate a number for no reason. Again, extremely illogical and should not even be entertained by anyone here.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_mammals_by_populatio


wikipedia says the total amount of mammals on earth is around 130 billion.

 

[AppleLord]

Now we're counting irrelevant stuff to try to inflate a number for no reason. Again, extremely illogical and should not even be entertained by anyone here.

I guessed you didn't read the whole thing, because I very clearly remove that percentage from the original one.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

Now we're counting irrelevant stuff to try to inflate a number for no reason. Again, extremely illogical and should not even be entertained by anyone here.

I only support the technique attacking animals, not just ALL organisms-- but even then, the Shinju Tree targetting animals alike is still high in the billions. It's not something ignored in the manga.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

"The Naruto Earth and Current Earth share this

Humans and their Biology, including their morale. Similar customs and traditions Both Called Earth The Author has outright stated that it's similar to ours"

I disagree with this entirely. The comment of the Narutoverse being similar to ours is only regarding their technology, that much was stated in the question that answer belongs to.

Their Earth isn't even remotely close to being geographically similar to ours, which means their planet is also not historically similar to ours. So how can you possibly suggest that our two populations are the same?

They are also not entirely biologically similar to us. Part 1 has shown that the possession of chakra means your body has an entire additional circulatory system entirely dedicated to chakra. They also have organs capable of producing chakra.

That argument is almost entirely wrong.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Callsign Castle is correct.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

The fact that none of our countries or continents exist in Naruto should debunk the fact that they're the same, not to mention that the geography is way different than our own. Also as Callsign pointed out above, using the argument that humans exist in Naruto ans using that as supportive evidence is also flawed as humans in Naruto have different biology as opposed to our own. All I see here are arguments that are grasping straws here if I'm to be honest.