Issues with Energy Equalization (Staff Only)

[Elizhaa]

Wokistan:

To summarize, I don't agree with the idea of equalizing powers or resistances afforded by some in verse power. I don't like equalization that much in general, but can at least accept it's existence (though maybe it should be optional like speed equal is?)

I am fine with letting different powers interact with one another, and general stuff like resistances to soul manip or being able to see inviable overrides verse specific "only X can Y" as is, but don't think they should be considered the same thing. If oen power system does X abilities and Y resistances while the other does A abilities and B resistances, I don't think those should mix even if the power systems are thematically similar or whatever, because end of the day the things power systems do are still unique abilities for the characters using it.

I think that Wokistan, Dragonmaster, my, and others points highlighted why @Cal's argument could be wrong too as his system enable powers and abilities mixing/equalized energy properties when SBA should only make energy interaction equalized which can give oppositions resistance/abilities that the characters have not on their profiles. In my view, no extra abilities/resistances should be lost from Verse Equalization and no abilities/resistances should be gained from it too.

There is this thread recently about Verse Equalization from it looks the conclusion rejected it which looks to be supporting my arguments.

Solutio
Since I talked to Cal, I wanted to present his idea. With it, there is no needed to changes the verse equalization


My proposal is that from Verse Equalization Power system's inherent abilities or resistance removal or additions in a match shouldn't happen:

So, the way to fix the text would be:

• Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion but no inherent abilities or resistance be obtained or removed from verse equalization.

or

• Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself. However, no inherent abilities or resistance be obtained or removed from a power system, verse equalization.

Note:

• This note will be regarding new comments from users. This thread is Staff Only. If you wish to contribute but are not a staff, please send your proposed comment to another staff member, or obtain their permission. I really rather not do this, but a conclusion must be reached, and this process helps the thread stays more organized.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This looks good. I agree with the idea that energy manipulation is energy manipulation and that is the aspect being equalized. Especially if it's described as an energy source that lives in all living beings. But specific hax abilities or resistances are not equalized.

 

[Elizhaa]

More or less, it is my view as well, @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Agnaa]

Wow, the third thread on this...

This doesn't even address the actual issue with these examples, imo. The issue of "Are people unaffected by reiatsu crush because the ability doesn't work on people with a similar amount/type of energy, or because having that energy grants resistance." The issue of weakness vs resistance.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

 

[Elizhaa]

Wow, the third thread on this...
This doesn't even address the actual issue with these examples, imo. The issue of "Are people unaffected by reiatsu crush because the ability doesn't work on people with a similar amount/type of energy, or because having that energy grants resistance." The issue of weakness vs resistance.

Reiatsu was a bad case for weakness because even above average Reiryoku give Soul Manipulation resistance can allow one to survive reiatsu crush. So, to resist reiatsu crush, a characters just need soul resistance.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Or at least a simple, can survive without a soul. And characters who have no souls are also unaffected.

 

[Agnaa]

"It can be resisted with soul manip resistance" doesn't mean that Reiatsu can't also have a weakness.

i.e. if a character EE's anyone who wears yellow clothing, it can resisted by resisting EE, but that doesn't remove the "only works on people wearing yellow" weakness.

 

[Elizhaa]

Or at least a simple, can survive without a soul. And characters who have no souls are also unaffected.

Yeah, it is included

 

[Xulrev]

The entire 'Reiatsu Crush' argument is something people will just circle around ad infinitum at this point.

This thread should simply speak as to which of the two propsed iterations of the equalization SBA should go through.

My vote is in favor of this:

Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion but no inherent abilities or resistance be obtained or removed from verse equalization.

It makes the most sense and maintains the core concept of VS battles, which is 'Character A with no additional powers vs Character B with no additional powers'.

It's fair, it's consistent, it's what VS battles ought to be.

That gets my vote for the above reasons I list.

 

[Elizhaa]

Agnaa, reiatsu doesn't have a weakness like that. It is ability where characters needs soul Manipulation resistance or immunity to resist.

 

[Agnaa]

Okay, but it seemed like there was a disagreement over that idea. That's why this has gone on for 3 threads instead of just one.

 

[Elizhaa]

Okay, but it seemed like there was a disagreement over that idea. That's why this has gone on for 3 threads instead of just one.

I think it came from misunderstanding from Bleach Power system. Less than a year ago, a large of Bleach Verse additions were applied that added many changes like resistance to Soul manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction, reiatsu crush as aura (simplified text) among others and I think some didn't really notice or understand them. Before the revision, though, Bleach's powers system was like Naruto's, in most way.

Here was the CRT: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2190468

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It was a complete misunderstanding, yes. We see many people get soul sucked at once and only the one with more Reiyoku actually resists it, and I do believe she resists Reiatsu Crush right after and is commented said higher Reiyoku is what's keeping her together.

But is just assumed it's an AP thing because it isn't given much focus.

That aside, I agree with Eli on this. And I mainly feel I even need to say this because there were obviously some differing opinions on the issue before.

Equalization is to allow for interaction, that's the basic and most important reason it is even a thing. Any further interaction is subject to discussion if such discussion has grounds to be had in a case by case basis on any respective vs thread, as we already normally do.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Xulrev seems to make sense.

 

[AKM sama]

Obviously characters shouldn't gain resistances due to having their energy equalized. But if an ability has a caveat of not working on characters due to some attribute of energy X (such as having a fixed amount of X), and the energy Y is similar to it, that caveat would still hold.

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good point.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Obviously characters shouldn't gain resistances due to having their energy equalized. But if an ability has a caveat of not working on characters due to some attribute of energy X (such as having a fixed amount of X), and the energy Y is similar to it, that caveat would still hold.

Should we do that? That would seem dishonest and an inaccurate assessment of a fight between two characters.

Either way, people have a misunderstanding and think this is how Bleach's Reiatsu Crush works. So even if we use this as a standard it doesn't impact it in anyway.

 

[The_Calaca]

Verse Equalization should work only in the sense where the characters can interact with each other's energy, but in no way they have to be treated as the same.

Pegasus Seiya's Cosmos and Sage Naruto's Natural Energy comes from basically the same source, but if we allow every equalization then Naruto gets atomic hax and limitless stamina and there's a problem.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

To piggyback off of Calaca's words, if we followed with AKM's proposal of granting resistances that are based on the amount of the energy and had Seiya's Cosmos vs Naruto's Chakra, are we now to assume Naruto resists Atomic Hax since that's a quality of Cosmos?

I would completely disagree.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I agree with the notion that Verse Equalization should only work in the sense that it allows both characters to interact with their energies, not that it gives powers or resistances that come from those energies.

This will be my only response on the matter.


Also, lets not argue on Bleach here - there should not be a fourth part to this simple discussio via derailment.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yeah, I honestly disagree with AKM sama's point. To piggy back on The Calaca and Imade's point on AKM sama's view, there actually would be some case like Seiya's Cosmos vs Naruto's Chakra where Naruto characters resists Atomic Hax out of nowhere which is looks disingenuous since none of the characters in the verse have it. The strongest matter resistance is up to molecular for the God Tiers so nowhere near atomix hax resistance.

 

[Elizhaa]

Question, What if in a verse there is different types of energy, but Energy A is a weakness to Energy B and Energy A can nullify all hax, and abilities Energy B can do towards someone who can use Energy A??? (If something like that is shown directly in a verse)

I mean this sound like power source weakness which should be on the characters profile. If it is on characters' profiles, I think it is fine the weakness transfer.

What I disagree with would be case like Saint Seiya's Cosmo vs Naruto's Chakra, where Naruto's chakra get resistance out of nowhere to Hax like Atomic Hax which are nonexistant in their verse or the characters never had resistance to.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then. Should we go with Xulrev's interpretation?

 

[Elizhaa]

Okay. Never mind then. Should we go with Xulrev's interpretation?

Xulrev's interpretation is my own interpretation, too. I think it is fine if we got with it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

At this point I've stopped caring and decided to just let people revel in their hax worship so I'm unsure if I'm going to argue this a third time. Probably gonna change my mind.

 

[Elizhaa]

At this point I've stopped caring and decided to just let people revel in their hax worship so I'm unsure if I'm going to argue this a third time. Probably gonna change my mind.

I can empathize. At the end of day, what matters is accuracy of match or profile. Hax are a part of the accurary system for many characters so we just got to accepted them for validity.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No, we get them accepted so we can say x beats y without trying. Let's not try to make ourselves feel virtuous. I dare you to find me one relevant fight where any Bleach character wins through Reiatsu Crush. Which is why I call bs on people saying "it wouldn't be fair". They know damn well that with or without RC it wouldn't cripple the character.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

So you're arguing "Fairness vs Accuracy"?

Is that really a topic for discussion? Clearly we will go with accuracy over what's considered fair by some users as fairness is subjective.

I could just argue that I find it unfair Superman is physically stronger than Naruto and the match is unfair. But that doesn't matter one bit because Superman has those established feats that make him so much stronger. Just like how Bleach, Saint Seiya or other hax-y verses have their established feats.

 

[Elizhaa]

The case where Bleach characters won with Reiatsu Crush are deemed as stomp and they are numerous stomp matches not long ago and lot of Bleach matches got removed because iof Reiatsu Crush too.

Also if abilities lik Hax are inacurrate to me, I usually make CRT to removed them and somtimes I get them removed. Otherwise, if they are accurate I just accepted the fact that the characters that I usually like get stomp. It is not rarely a case of virtue just a case of accurary to me. To show my conviction, I helped get bleach's souls to get passive insibility when it would limits vs threads for the Bleach that I would like to happen to my dismay because it was accurate. I think we can discuss on PM if you want to go more depth because I don't want to derail, Cal.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You're misunderstanding what I said, IMade. I'm saying that people who say "it would be unfair to cripple Bleach characters by preventing RC because they lose an ability they use" is wrong, because nobody uses it when it comes to fights that matter.

I'm not taking this to a PM, Eli.

 

[Elizhaa]

Ok, Cal.

On that point: "it would be unfair to cripple Bleach characters by preventing RC because they lose an ability they use" is wrong, because nobody uses it when it comes to fights that matter.

• They do used it in fight though and it is like the first thing do in fight is expand their aura/Reiatsu . It just just roughly the entire main cast verse got resistance to soul manipulation. Characters such as ordinary humans or weak spirits can died from RC.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You know darn well what I meant.

 

[Elizhaa]

You know darn well what I meant.

Honestly, sorry, I don't know, Cal. I just know your overall point as I stated in the OP and that we discuss on in PM.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Of course they flare their Reiatsu like DBZ characters flare their ki. They don't do it with the intent of soulf*cking everyone there though. The red haired girl. Orihime. What, you're telling me she'll get into a fight with the idea she'll RC?

 

[Wokistan]

ugh why are we doing this again

Anyways, my opinion is literally in the OP.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Everyone's opinions are well known by now and I'm certain no one will change their opinions. I'll still get mad about it but I'm still jaded.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yeah, I get it is usually just for show like DBZ how reiatsu is flare. They rarely do it with intent of soul manipulation but it is just a consequence of the power system when characters try to get ready for fight. Aizen did used used to purposely killed a human before and some characters like flare it too for the other effects.

Orihime has used her R before. I am not truly a expert on how she fight unlike hollows and soul reaper but I would say she used it in battle.

 

[Elizhaa]

ugh why are we doing this again

Anyways, my opinion is literally in the OP.

Just trying to get a proper conclusion so there is no little to repeat on the topic discussion.

Noted, Wokistan.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Aizen used it against fodder. Normal humans. The only times it has worked is when there's a power gal the size of the space between Michael Strahan's teeth.