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I have tagged the following people in this post:Some other knowledgeable member who is willing to be evenhanded in their descriptions is also welcome to help out with a summary post.
@JustSomeWeirdo @Eficiente @DarkGrath @Moritzva @DemonGodMitchAubin @Duedate8898 @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @Lonkitt @FinePoint @Elizio33For all @thread Moderators, for all visitors of the page, for everyone here. To make it completely transparent:
This is an overview of all relevant significant evidences for understanding the context.
@Deagonx @LephyrTheRevanchist You can start to give your own input on this since new material has been added.
- God of War Explanation Page (only first section – Pantheons and How They Coexist preferably entirely if you wish)
- Egypt Relevance
- Shreds of evidence of Author interview (his interpretation and understanding regarding the in-verse statement)
- The evidence of in-verse statement (preferably to watch the entire video)
DemonGodMitchAubin and LordTracer have explicitly stated not to be tagged in Tier 1 threads.
Would it not have been better to post it in the summary then?I suppose he wants staff members to see the shreds of evidence first and do their own evaluation.
But Dread already posted a compilation of all the arguments for and against as a Summary.I actually prefer a summary post, but nobody seemed willing to post one after I requested it.
Oh. I see.That was a list of links with far too much information together to realistically inspect. I wanted a single reasonably long summary text, and that was it.
You wanted two perspectives – summary? SureThat was a list of links with far too much information together to realistically inspect. I wanted a single reasonably long summary text, and that was it.
The crux is whether or not the plane that Athena ascended to has qualitative superiority.Okay. That seems like an acceptable solution as well.
Essentially, to qualify for qualitative superiority, what does higher plane of existence entails in the context of the setting should be elaborated. It should be a form of existential status as opposed to something like a position in the cosmology. The "higher plane" should be defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another.Quoting FAQ Q7.
Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology,as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.
They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.
The character in question which has statements of Higher Existence is Athena, who claims to have been brought to a Higher existence by her selfless act of saving Zeus.
Now, the context of what this Higher existence entails in the setting according to WoG is that Athena has ascended to this higher plane/realm, which is a place that was higher than everybody else, and experiences a power greater than everybody else.
The author's intention is clearly alluding her to a higher state of existence that is normally unreachable by everybody within the setting. In fact this is further shown by Athena being completely un-interactable by Kratos.
The everybody here refers to structures such as the Greek realms, the Norse realms and Yggdrasil, characters and their magic systems which are indexed as Tier 2-C (4D level) currently.
The opposition's arguments primarily stem from the misconceptions regarding Qualitative superiority as they are of the belief that qualitative superiority inherently means infinitely more powerful or some other quantitative measure of power is essential. However, as we can see from aboveQuoting FAQ Q14.
The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.
Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size.
Is the argument then, that the phrase "higher plane of existence" is enough to justify QS?@Firestorm808 that's not even the argument, Athena exists in a higher plane of existence after her sacrifice, which is stated in the games and word of god.
I don't want to continue with any back and forth, but just look at what u have posted, it literally debunks the very thing u are arguing for. The ones that are put at Unknown are specifically for Higher dimensional (through spatial means) entities, not for Existential status or R>F Transcendence. I hope u have read what u posted.Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status."
In what way is Athena explicitly infinitely above others in existential status?I don't want to continue with any back and forth, but just look at what u have posted, it literally debunks the very thing u are arguing for.
No one actually disagree with that. Not even deagonx and even my post clarifies this point.@ImmortalDread ok, I still don't really see how this refutes Athena's higher existence when it's stated Athena reaches a higher power that's beyond anything in the Greek Pantheon.
It's simply matter of why would this power imply infinite superior beyond anything ifI agree; there is undeniable evidence that she is in a higher plane to the point power corrupted her and also Kratos referred to her appearance (thus the appearance is one of the evidence of her being in higher existence). There is no argument against it. I and Deagonx agreed with this.
---> "being infinitely above"Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status."
“Explicitly defines”I don't want to continue with any back and forth, but just look at what u have posted, it literally debunks the very thing u are arguing for. The ones that are put at Unknown are specifically for Higher dimensional (through spatial means) entities, not for Existential status or R>F Transcendence. I hope u have read what u posted.
The problem is that "a higher plane of existence that grants her power beyond anything known in the greek pantheon" doesn't have to be infinitely stronger, it could just be like, 1000x stronger.The higher plane of existence that grants her power beyond anything known in the greek pantheon is enough to justify QS,
Then we should downgrade those, because it's in clear opposition with our standards.don't really see what this is supposed to debunk when we've had stuff like higher plane of existence count for tier 1 for a while.
"being infinitely above"
Are u aware of the term called OR, it means either is fine.Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status."
Then make separate CRTs for them if you think the other Tier 1 verses don't qualify.Then we should downgrade those, because it's in clear opposition with our standards.
That's not what it means. You're reading it wrong.Are u aware of the term called OR, it means either is fine.
Right, but "infinitely above" extends to both. Not all "higher planes of existence" are "infinitely above" the lower ones in "existential status."Are aware of the term called OR, it means either is fine.
I don't know what other verses are being talked about, but someone makes a CRT for it feel free to show it to me and I will support it. I just don't think it matters at all that other verses are getting away with insufficient evidence.Then make separate CRTs for them if you think the other Tier 1 verses don't qualify.
Type 4: Residing in a higher state of being (Existential or Ontological superiority) etc
The character in question which has statements of Higher Existence is Athena, who claims to have been brought to a Higher existence by her selfless act of saving Zeus.
Now, the context of what this Higher existence entails in the setting according to WoG is that Athena has ascended to this higher plane/realm, which is a place that was higher than everybody else, and experiences a power greater than everybody else.
The author's intention is clearly alluding her to a higher state of existence that is normally unreachable by everybody within the setting. In fact this is further shown by Athena being completely un-interactable by Kratos.
The everybody here refers to structures such as the Greek realms, the Norse realms and Yggdrasil, characters and their magic systems which are indexed as Tier 2-C (4D level) currently.
This is an EXTREMELY gross misunderstanding of what qualitative superiority is on this wiki. Qualitative superiority is NOT simply having vague "existential superiority." As detailed by the actual Tiering System FAQ, "higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status." As we can see here, this superiority in "existential status" has to be infinite.From the above we can safely conclude that it qualifies for Qualitative Superiority, specifically Type 4 which is defined as residing in a higher state of being(Existential or Ontological Superiority).
So being Qualitatively superior to 2-C(4D) beings and structures will be considered as Low 1-C(5D).
- R>F difference, Higher plane of existence(or ontological superiority), Higher Dimensionality, Uncountably infinite power etc. are just different ways of achieving Qualitative Superiority and they are all standardized to +1 dimension and are just implied to have uncountably infinite difference in power in the wiki, they aren't necessarily the same, they are just considered equivalent unless extra context is given which could suggest higher ratings.
- Qualitative Superiority such as dimensionality implies the necessary quantitative (uncountably infinite) difference. And this can also work the other way around meaning uncountably infinite stronger or larger in size implies a higher dimensionality.
- We can also infer that there is no particular requirement for Higher Dimensional, Higher Plane of Existence, R-F transcendence etc to be supplemented with statements of uncountably infinite power for it to be considered qualitative superiority at all.
One major thing to note here is that the different types of QS are in reality unquantifiable in terms of power. I have explained this in the previous comment.
Now, what we do here in the wiki is we try to emulate this unreachable or inaccessible property of the different types of QS mathematically by equating it to higher levels of infinity. They are just a low ball way of emulating this aspect and we have standardized all of this QS and even quantitative superiority as +1 dimension or higher levels of infinity mathematically.
Uncountable infinite stronger does not mean Higher dimensionality, it implies QS and not higher dimensionality.And this can also work the other way around meaning uncountably infinite stronger or larger in size implies a higher dimensionality.
Higher planes of existence have never counted for tier 1 without any blatant misunderstandings of what Tier 1 actually is. Our Tiering System FAQ specifically explains that a superiority in "existential status" must be INFINITE to be considered as "qualitative superioity."@Deagonx The higher plane of existence that grants her power beyond anything known in the greek pantheon is enough to justify QS, don't really see what this is supposed to debunk when we've had stuff like higher plane of existence count for tier 1 for a while.
@ImmortalDread ok, I still don't really see how this refutes Athena's higher existence when it's stated Athena reaches a higher power that's beyond anything in the Greek Pantheon.
Kratos can interact with Souls in general and other abstract stuff like Type 1 Concepts and he himself is AE2 iirc, if that counts. The scans regarding this should be in the profile. So, him being not able to interact with Athena at least can be argued to her being more abstract or higher existence and not because she has intangible hax.The rest of the post does not mean much for QS except the part where you claim kratos could not interact with athena. Which could easily be because she is a non-physical construct as the video shows her passing through kratos.
Now if the supporters can provide that the reason why she cannot be interacted with is because her existence is higher in a way that lower beings cannot interact with her and not cause she is intangible, that means the QS is valid. Aside that nothing here means QS.
I was meaning it more for the larger in size statement but whatever, its QS, not here to debate on this.Uncountable infinite stronger does not mean Higher dimensionality, it implies QS and not higher dimensionality.
But... being more abstract than something isn't indicative of being qualitative superiority...So, him being not able to interact with Athena at least can be argued to her being more abstract.