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Issue with qualitative superiority in God of War (downgrade)

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Some other knowledgeable member who is willing to be evenhanded in their descriptions is also welcome to help out with a summary post.
 

Summary​

All shreds of evidence are found in this post. Preferably to check them individually before reading arguments.

For low 1-C
Against Low 1-C
 
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Antvasima said:
Some other knowledgeable member who is willing to be evenhanded in their descriptions is also welcome to help out with a summary post.
Click to expand...
I have tagged the following people in this post:

Celestial_Pegasus, Emirp sumitpo, Moritzva, DarkGrath, PrinceofPein, CrimsonStarFallen, Lonkitt, Elizhaa, Maverick_Zero_X, Everything12, Qawsedf234, Abstractions, Sir_Ovens, ByAsura and Starter_Pack. Deagon tagged Ultima afterwards, so all we have to do is wait for them to vote now.

Planck, Theglassman12, Lephyr, Deagon and Firestorm have already voted.
 
ImmortalDread said:
For all @thread Moderators, for all visitors of the page, for everyone here. To make it completely transparent:
This is an overview of all relevant significant evidences for understanding the context.
  • God of War Explanation Page (only first section – Pantheons and How They Coexist preferably entirely if you wish)
  • Egypt Relevance
  • Shreds of evidence of Author interview (his interpretation and understanding regarding the in-verse statement)
  • The evidence of in-verse statement (preferably to watch the entire video)
@Deagonx @LephyrTheRevanchist You can start to give your own input on this since new material has been added.
Click to expand...
@JustSomeWeirdo @Eficiente @DarkGrath @Moritzva @DemonGodMitchAubin @Duedate8898 @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @Lonkitt @FinePoint @Elizio33

What do you think about this?
 
I actually prefer a summary post, but nobody seemed willing to post one after I requested it.
 
That was a list of links with far too much information together to realistically inspect. I wanted a single reasonably long summary text, and that was it.
 
Antvasima said:
That was a list of links with far too much information together to realistically inspect. I wanted a single reasonably long summary text, and that was it.
Click to expand...
Oh. I see.

I asked Planck69 to help with it but he thought it was unnecessary, and most thought Dread's post was sufficient. I will try again if you think that's not good enough.

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 Would you be able to help out in this regard?
 
Antvasima said:
That was a list of links with far too much information together to realistically inspect. I wanted a single reasonably long summary text, and that was it.
Click to expand...
You wanted two perspectives – summary? Sure

@KLOL506 Post one that is supposedly should be short and informative
@Deagonx If you want to create a summary, please do the same.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. That seems like an acceptable solution as well.
Click to expand...
The crux is whether or not the plane that Athena ascended to has qualitative superiority.

To summarize my argument: No, because there's no evidence for it being so. It doesn't have higher spatial dimensions, R>F, etc.

Its a higher realm that's more powerful, and people are just kind of assuming it's a higher infinity based on a vague notion of it being a "higher form of existence." But higher realms aren't always infinitely higher, we need good evidence for that, but there's none here.

For what it's worth, even Ultima said he didn't think there was good evidence for QS, he's just been busy with the Marvel thread and hasn't gotten around to replying here.
 
So I have been requested to write the summary for the side opposing the OP and downgrade.


How to Achieve Qualitative Superiority

Quoting FAQ Q7.

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.
Click to expand...
Essentially, to qualify for qualitative superiority, what does higher plane of existence entails in the context of the setting should be elaborated. It should be a form of existential status as opposed to something like a position in the cosmology. The "higher plane" should be defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another.

The types of QS that are currently accepted in the wiki. This is obviously not an exhaustive list(I have compiled these from the above FAQ):
  • Type 1: Higher Spatial Dimensions
  • Type 2: Reality-Fiction Transcendence
  • Type 3: Uncountably infinite Larger size (Encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself)
  • Type 4: Residing in a higher state of being (Existential or Ontological superiority) etc


Evidence for QS

For QS, first we need the statements of Higher plane of existence, and then context on what does this existence entail in the context of the setting. That's it.
The character in question which has statements of Higher Existence is Athena, who claims to have been brought to a Higher existence by her selfless act of saving Zeus.
Now, the context of what this Higher existence entails in the setting according to WoG is that Athena has ascended to this higher plane/realm, which is a place that was higher than everybody else, and experiences a power greater than everybody else.
The author's intention is clearly alluding her to a higher state of existence that is normally unreachable by everybody within the setting. In fact this is further shown by Athena being completely un-interactable by Kratos.
The everybody here refers to structures such as the Greek realms, the Norse realms and Yggdrasil, characters and their magic systems which are indexed as Tier 2-C (4D level) currently.
Click to expand...

From the above we can safely conclude that it qualifies for Qualitative Superiority, specifically Type 4 which is defined as residing in a higher state of being(Existential or Ontological Superiority).
So being Qualitatively superior to 2-C(4D) beings and structures will be considered as Low 1-C(5D).



What is Qualitative Superiority

Quoting FAQ Q14.

The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.
Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size.
Click to expand...
The opposition's arguments primarily stem from the misconceptions regarding Qualitative superiority as they are of the belief that qualitative superiority inherently means infinitely more powerful or some other quantitative measure of power is essential. However, as we can see from above
  • R>F difference, Higher plane of existence(or ontological superiority), Higher Dimensionality, Uncountably infinite power etc. are just different ways of achieving Qualitative Superiority and they are all standardized to +1 dimension and are just implied to have uncountably infinite difference in power in the wiki, they aren't necessarily the same, they are just considered equivalent unless extra context is given which could suggest higher ratings.
  • Qualitative Superiority such as dimensionality implies the necessary quantitative (uncountably infinite) difference. And this can also work the other way around meaning uncountably infinite stronger or larger in size implies a higher dimensionality.
  • We can also infer that there is no particular requirement for Higher Dimensional, Higher Plane of Existence, R-F transcendence etc to be supplemented with statements of uncountably infinite power for it to be considered qualitative superiority at all.

One major thing to note here is that the different types of QS are in reality unquantifiable in terms of power. I have explained this in the previous comment.

Now, what we do here in the wiki is we try to emulate this unreachable or inaccessible property of the different types of QS mathematically by equating it to higher levels of infinity. They are just a low ball way of emulating this aspect and we have standardized all of this QS and even quantitative superiority as +1 dimension or higher levels of infinity mathematically.
 
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I don't see how being generically higher and more powerful means being in a level of infinity higher.

Are you paraphrasing or using direct quotes regarding what happened to Athena?

"If a character is merely stated to be higher-dimensional and simultaneously has no other feats to derive anything noteworthy from, then they are put at Unknown, and the same applies to lower dimensions as well.

Do note, however, that them not qualifying for Tier 2 and above doesn't mean they are "fake" higher-dimensional beings or anything of the sort. It is simply that being higher-dimensional does not inherently mean they have infinite power in the first place, as explained above."

"However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify.

Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status."
 
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@Deagonx The higher plane of existence that grants her power beyond anything known in the greek pantheon is enough to justify QS, don't really see what this is supposed to debunk when we've had stuff like higher plane of existence count for tier 1 for a while.

@ImmortalDread ok, I still don't really see how this refutes Athena's higher existence when it's stated Athena reaches a higher power that's beyond anything in the Greek Pantheon.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status."
Click to expand...
I don't want to continue with any back and forth, but just look at what u have posted, it literally debunks the very thing u are arguing for. The ones that are put at Unknown are specifically for Higher dimensional (through spatial means) entities, not for Existential status or R>F Transcendence. I hope u have read what u posted.
 
Tanin_iver said:
I don't want to continue with any back and forth, but just look at what u have posted, it literally debunks the very thing u are arguing for.
Click to expand...
In what way is Athena explicitly infinitely above others in existential status?

What quotes are you using?
 
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Theglassman12 said:
@ImmortalDread ok, I still don't really see how this refutes Athena's higher existence when it's stated Athena reaches a higher power that's beyond anything in the Greek Pantheon.
Click to expand...
No one actually disagree with that. Not even deagonx and even my post clarifies this point.
I agree; there is undeniable evidence that she is in a higher plane to the point power corrupted her and also Kratos referred to her appearance (thus the appearance is one of the evidence of her being in higher existence). There is no argument against it. I and Deagonx agreed with this.
Click to expand...
It's simply matter of why would this power imply infinite superior beyond anything if
  • No implication for that (not even author stated it or any in-verse statement/feat/implication)
  • No explicit statement suggests infinitely superiority
Which again, our standards are pretty clear by that
Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status."
Click to expand...
---> "being infinitely above"

There were not a single statement that suggests this. Now you may ask "why do we need statement", the same standard also say:

---> “explicitly defines”

See the issue? The standards even submits having an explicit definition within the verse that there are some form of infinite qualitative superiority.

For record; this goes in both possibilities as the standard above suggests non-vaguely
  • Existential status
  • In power
 
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Tanin_iver said:
I don't want to continue with any back and forth, but just look at what u have posted, it literally debunks the very thing u are arguing for. The ones that are put at Unknown are specifically for Higher dimensional (through spatial means) entities, not for Existential status or R>F Transcendence. I hope u have read what u posted.
Click to expand...
“Explicitly defines”

No, it does not debunk his points, in fact it supports his points. It stated that higher dimensional beings can get the tiering if there is an explicit definition of higher infinitely superiority over low dimensional beings regardless if it was existential status or in power.
 
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Theglassman12 said:
The higher plane of existence that grants her power beyond anything known in the greek pantheon is enough to justify QS,
Click to expand...
The problem is that "a higher plane of existence that grants her power beyond anything known in the greek pantheon" doesn't have to be infinitely stronger, it could just be like, 1000x stronger.

Theglassman12 said:
don't really see what this is supposed to debunk when we've had stuff like higher plane of existence count for tier 1 for a while.
Click to expand...
Then we should downgrade those, because it's in clear opposition with our standards.
 
Tanin_iver said:
Are u aware of the term called OR, it means either is fine.
Click to expand...
That's not what it means. You're reading it wrong.

"Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in

power

and/or

existential status."

You can't ignore the preceding "infinitely above" for "existential status."

In what way is her status infinitely above?
 
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Tanin_iver said:
Are aware of the term called OR, it means either is fine.
Click to expand...
Right, but "infinitely above" extends to both. Not all "higher planes of existence" are "infinitely above" the lower ones in "existential status."

KLOL506 said:
Then make separate CRTs for them if you think the other Tier 1 verses don't qualify.
Click to expand...
I don't know what other verses are being talked about, but someone makes a CRT for it feel free to show it to me and I will support it. I just don't think it matters at all that other verses are getting away with insufficient evidence.
 
Tanin_iver said:
Type 4: Residing in a higher state of being (Existential or Ontological superiority) etc

The character in question which has statements of Higher Existence is Athena, who claims to have been brought to a Higher existence by her selfless act of saving Zeus.
Now, the context of what this Higher existence entails in the setting according to WoG is that Athena has ascended to this higher plane/realm, which is a place that was higher than everybody else, and experiences a power greater than everybody else.
The author's intention is clearly alluding her to a higher state of existence that is normally unreachable by everybody within the setting. In fact this is further shown by Athena being completely un-interactable by Kratos.
The everybody here refers to structures such as the Greek realms, the Norse realms and Yggdrasil, characters and their magic systems which are indexed as Tier 2-C (4D level) currently.
Click to expand...
Tanin_iver said:
From the above we can safely conclude that it qualifies for Qualitative Superiority, specifically Type 4 which is defined as residing in a higher state of being(Existential or Ontological Superiority).
So being Qualitatively superior to 2-C(4D) beings and structures will be considered as Low 1-C(5D).


  • R>F difference, Higher plane of existence(or ontological superiority), Higher Dimensionality, Uncountably infinite power etc. are just different ways of achieving Qualitative Superiority and they are all standardized to +1 dimension and are just implied to have uncountably infinite difference in power in the wiki, they aren't necessarily the same, they are just considered equivalent unless extra context is given which could suggest higher ratings.
  • Qualitative Superiority such as dimensionality implies the necessary quantitative (uncountably infinite) difference. And this can also work the other way around meaning uncountably infinite stronger or larger in size implies a higher dimensionality.
  • We can also infer that there is no particular requirement for Higher Dimensional, Higher Plane of Existence, R-F transcendence etc to be supplemented with statements of uncountably infinite power for it to be considered qualitative superiority at all.

One major thing to note here is that the different types of QS are in reality unquantifiable in terms of power. I have explained this in the previous comment.

Now, what we do here in the wiki is we try to emulate this unreachable or inaccessible property of the different types of QS mathematically by equating it to higher levels of infinity. They are just a low ball way of emulating this aspect and we have standardized all of this QS and even quantitative superiority as +1 dimension or higher levels of infinity mathematically.
Click to expand...
This is an EXTREMELY gross misunderstanding of what qualitative superiority is on this wiki. Qualitative superiority is NOT simply having vague "existential superiority." As detailed by the actual Tiering System FAQ, "higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status." As we can see here, this superiority in "existential status" has to be infinite.

The "existential superiority" we see described in God of War is simply a vague statement of Athena being at a higher level of existence with no explanation whatsoever as to the extent of her "higher existence" which does NOT qualify as qualitative superiority. There is no implication of uncountably infinite superiority, and by extension, qualitative superiority, at all in these vague claims.
 
I was called to take a look at this a while back but since it was war then and I have retired I decided to unfollow it, now that everything has calm down for a bit before the shooting starts again, I am taking a look at it.
Tanin_iver said:
And this can also work the other way around meaning uncountably infinite stronger or larger in size implies a higher dimensionality.
Click to expand...
Uncountable infinite stronger does not mean Higher dimensionality, it implies QS and not higher dimensionality.
The rest of the post does not mean much for QS except the part where you claim kratos could not interact with athena. Which could easily be because she is a non-physical construct as the video shows her passing through kratos.
Now if the supporters can provide that the reason why she cannot be interacted with is because her existence is higher in a way that lower beings cannot interact with her and not cause she is intangible, that means the QS is valid. Aside that nothing supports the QS.

Edit: enough with the whole infinitely above or whatnot, nothing like that exist in the scans or statements. It is not relevant here.
 
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Theglassman12 said:
@Deagonx The higher plane of existence that grants her power beyond anything known in the greek pantheon is enough to justify QS, don't really see what this is supposed to debunk when we've had stuff like higher plane of existence count for tier 1 for a while.

@ImmortalDread ok, I still don't really see how this refutes Athena's higher existence when it's stated Athena reaches a higher power that's beyond anything in the Greek Pantheon.
Click to expand...
Higher planes of existence have never counted for tier 1 without any blatant misunderstandings of what Tier 1 actually is. Our Tiering System FAQ specifically explains that a superiority in "existential status" must be INFINITE to be considered as "qualitative superioity."
 
I appreciate the sharing of sentiments, but we don't need so many replies essentially saying the same point, it makes it harder for everyone to read, so let's try and rein it in a bit as we are going to need some more staff votes to make a final determination.
 
Seems like it, it's basically the same thing as what Deagonx's summary says, except his is far shorter and more concise and basically covers all the above points neatly.
 
PrinceofPein said:
The rest of the post does not mean much for QS except the part where you claim kratos could not interact with athena. Which could easily be because she is a non-physical construct as the video shows her passing through kratos.
Now if the supporters can provide that the reason why she cannot be interacted with is because her existence is higher in a way that lower beings cannot interact with her and not cause she is intangible, that means the QS is valid. Aside that nothing here means QS.
Click to expand...
Kratos can interact with Souls in general and other abstract stuff like Type 1 Concepts and he himself is AE2 iirc, if that counts. The scans regarding this should be in the profile. So, him being not able to interact with Athena at least can be argued to her being more abstract or higher existence and not because she has intangible hax.

PrinceofPein said:
Uncountable infinite stronger does not mean Higher dimensionality, it implies QS and not higher dimensionality.
Click to expand...
I was meaning it more for the larger in size statement but whatever, its QS, not here to debate on this.

Anyways I'm off to sleep now.
 
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