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Issue with qualitative superiority in God of War (downgrade)

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Deagonx said:
The fact that Uranus is called "the Heavens" does not mean their fight was the creation of the universe. That's such a bizarre non-sequitur.
Click to expand...
Says the guy who literally ignored the logic behind Uranus being called the Heavens, having the Universe punched out of his face and Gyges literally confirming him to be the creator of the universe. There's no non-sequitr to be had.

Deagonx said:
In consecutive comments with no input from me. Why are you making it sound like you've had to tell me multiple times when you simply posted it twice before I could respond?
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Because you refuse to accept it for being what it really is. I can't help you on that front.

Deagonx said:
You have no evidence, just an assumption based on two completely disconnected pieces of information. This third piece of info you just added (that Uranus was called "the Heavens") does nothing to change that but you're acting like it does, but conveniently refusing to actually support that with reasoning, and your own WoG scan contradicts you and says that what was happening there was merely the creation of galaxies, and now we just agree to disagree and stop the debate? Wow.
Click to expand...
Disconnected
Click to expand...

Heavens and Universe
Click to expand...

At this point you're just reaching. Either make a CRT or stop discussing the matter on this thread.
 
KLOL506 said:
Says the guy who literally ignored the logic behind Uranus being called the Heavens, having the Universe punched out of his face and Gyges literally confirming him to be the creator of the universe. There's no non-sequitr to be had.
Click to expand...
Except the part in bold is an assumption without evidence, and the other information you provided does nothing to support it, and we have direct from the writer that this didn't happen, that it's only galaxies.

KLOL506 said:
Because you refuse to accept it for being what it really is. I can't help you on that front.
Click to expand...
You can't help me or the senior writer of the series, it seems. Lest we forget, it was galaxies.

KHujVnt.png
 
Deagonx said:
Except the part in bold is an assumption without evidence, and the other information you provided does nothing to support it, and we have direct from the writer that this didn't happen, that it's only galaxies.
Click to expand...
It doesn't contradict anything at all. It does not limit itself to solely galaxies, but rather it emphasizes on the other stuff created by the ensuing Primordial War post-Universe creation.

Deagonx said:
You can't help me or the senior writer of the series, it seems. Lest we forget, it was galaxies.
Click to expand...
Again, it's not limited to the galaxies, plus it's the Primordial War's deeper stages. The opening of the Primordial War literally starts with the creation of the cosmos.
 
Also what exactly does the creation of the universe here have to do with this? We're talking about the size difference they have compared to the universe itself, not how they created it. That's how the 4D stuff comes. Not because of how they created it, that's irrelevant.
 
KLOL506 said:
Also what exactly does the creation of the universe here have to do with this? We're talking about the size difference they have compared to the universe itself, not how they created it.
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Is your basis for his size the misconception that we witness the big bang during that fight, rather than merely the creation of galaxies?
 
Deagonx said:
Is your basis for his size the misconception that we witness the big bang during that fight, rather than merely the creation of galaxies?
Click to expand...
There is no misconception, that fight 100% created the universe, which was literally chilling in Uranus' chin before it got punched out by Ceto. It's the second thing to happen in the entire series right after Chaos (The red Primordial lady) lunges at her Earthen Primordial Son Ourea (Brown, earthly).

The galaxies thing happens later down the war when more Primordials get engaged in the fighting.
 
Deagonx said:
The key word here is potential. This is essentially Zeno's paradox. Zeus can continue to grow and achieve greater heights, but you don't need qualitative superiority to be beyond him. It could also be the case that his growth occurs at a rate slow enough that the level to which Athena was raised is too far off in the distance for it to be relevant to the story. We can't make those kinds of assumptions.

There's also nothing about him having "infinite potential" on his profile so I'd like to see the evidence that this comes from.
Click to expand...
This still holds significance, and it's important to discuss.

Why would infinite potential makes any difference?
We still did not even find any evidence of infinite superiority let alone implications without going far from what is presented and make unproved assumptions.

Hell, even for “infinite potential” evidence, it comes from a conclusion that he is ever “growing power” but never implied/stated to be infinite. This is the definition of overstating something. So to even start using it as an evidence for his infinite potential is 2-A; and Athena is far beyond it, it's safe to tell this is one of low 1-C most exaggerated arguments.
 
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ImmortalDread said:
This still holds and it's important to discuss.

Why would infinite potential makes any difference?
We still did not even find any evidence of infinitely superior let alone implications without going far from what is presented and make unproved assumptions.
Click to expand...
Planck addressed this here, Lephyr addressed this here.
 
KLOL506 said:
There is no misconception, that fight 100% created the universe, which was literally chilling in Uranus' chin before it got punched out by Ceto. It's the second thing to happen in the entire series right after Chaos (The red Primordial lady) lunges at her Earthen Primordial Son Ourea (Brown, earthly).
Click to expand...
Your own WoG contradicts that, and the fact that Uranus was called "the Heavens" and that he created the universe does not justify interpreting the scene that way. It's just an assumption that one of the writers directly rejected.

KLOL506 said:
Planck addressed this here, Lephyr addressed this here.
Click to expand...
No they didn't. They mentioned the concept of infinite potential, they did not respond to the objections to why "Zeus has infinite potential" does not necessitate QS for Athena. I'm not even sure where this infinite potential phrase is coming from, as it's not on his profile.
 
Deagonx said:
Your own WoG contradicts that, and the fact that Uranus was called "the Heavens" and that he created the universe does not justify interpreting the scene that way. It's just an assumption that one of the writers directly rejected.
Click to expand...
Already discussed this multiple times (Including the WoG thing which I just addressed in my reply), plus, like Glass said, if you have issues, make a CRT, don't derail here.

Deagonx said:
No they didn't. They mentioned the concept of infinite potential, they did not respond to the objections to why "Zeus has infinite potential" does not necessitate QS for Athena. I'm not even sure where this infinite potential phrase is coming from, as it's not on his profile.
Click to expand...
You would have to bring it up with Planck and Lephyr then.
 
KLOL506 said:
Already discussed this multiple times (Including the WoG thing which I just addressed in my reply), plus, like Glass said, if you have issues, make a CRT, don't derail here.
Click to expand...
I'm not even the one that brought it up. I just debunked it (along with the writer).

KLOL506 said:
You would have to bring it up with Planck and Lephyr then.
Click to expand...
I did, she did. You then replied making it sound as though it'd already been addressed, but that simply wasn't true. And again, where even is this scan? It's not in Zeus' profile.
 
Deagonx said:
I'm not even the one that brought it up. I just debunked it (along with the writer).
Click to expand...
At this point it's whatever. Can we focus on the actual topic at hand now like Glass has asked?

Deagonx said:
I did, she did.
Click to expand...
Like, so far I specifically saw you respond to Planck's comment in particular, if you have indeed responded to Lephyr's argument, then my apologies. That being said, the link would be nice, because I can't seem to find it anywhere.
 
Deagonx said:
So does anyone know where this "infinite potential" thing actually comes from with Zeus?
Click to expand...
I actually don't know this one, Lephyr and Planck brought it up due to no ceiling shown by Zeus' power growths. You'll prolly have to ask them separately outside of this thread.
 
Well, it's their argument, so I wouldn't be able to help you out here on this one.
 
Why are we in 4 pages already? Weren't we supposed to avoid back and forth and repeating arguments or derailing?
Just let the staff view the arguments presented and vote right. That's what was agreed upon.

Anyways, just wanted to notify that I updated my original comment as I got some free time and I decided to tackle an important context that I missed out which may have lead to some misunderstandings to the opposition side. So I have made the clarifications and you can check my comment here.
 
Tanin_iver said:
Anyways, just wanted to notify that I updated my original comment as I got some free time and I decided to tackle an important context that I missed out which may have lead to some misunderstandings to the opposition side. So I have made the clarifications and you can check my comment here.
Click to expand...
@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Deagonx @ImmortalDread @CloverDragon03 Seems like your votes will need to be re-done.

You can give your agrees/disagrees and explain why if you wish, and if you wish that you still stand by your original thoughts despite the edit, please do not hesitate to say so. Your votes will be counted.
 
To maintain fairness, I have read it all as @KLOL506 requested

I think the issue (or the difference in my point of view) is his equating the evidences to ontological superiority which I highly disagree with it.
(beforehand it was existential superiority ?!)

I agree; there is undeniable evidence that she is in a higher plane to the point power corrupted her and also Kratos referred to her appearance (thus the appearance is one of the evidence of her being in higher existence). There is no argument against it. I and Deagonx agreed with this.

But nothing in the whole post suggests any implication or indication of this realm size. Y'all forget that low 1-C is defined by a size, it is a tier. It is a structure of being spatially superior higher than a space-time continuum (or two higher levels of infinity greater) and a power or feat needs to be proven to be able to effect significantly this type of structure.

To realm
We can't simply assume that the realm is on higher dimensionality based on one single statement. Intangibility is not even relevant to the tiering. At best, that realm is some type of metaphysical or spiritual plane where the power is unreachable (and non-reachability is not even proven, but rather a strong possibility)

To power
Neither the power that she gained can even be measured. It is unknown, there is no evidence of how truly strong is this power; it simply said to be superior to all other Gods. There is no evidence of it being significantly infinitely qualitative superior to the entire existence.

Author's interpretation
And I don't think the author was really explicit with his description regarding the power. He did not even imply the qualitative transcendence at all. All I can say is that he emphasizes the significance of Athena's arc in the overall series. Her selflessness and subsequent rise to a higher plane serve as a powerful narrative to convey a message about power, corruption, and the potential consequences of obtaining too much authority.

Let's go deeper; he was entirely talking within the realms of mythology and religion and not mathematical or in a physical sense. In various belief systems, the term “higher plane of existence" often denotes a realm or level of reality that transcends the ordinary physical world. It is not necessarily a physical place, but rather a state of being or consciousness that surpasses the limitations of the material realm (this is even proven that the series is entirely relied on those mythologies)

In our context, Athena's ascension to a higher plane of existence suggests that she has attained a more elevated and powerful state beyond the typical existence of the other gods. It could be interpreted as an advancement to a more divine or spiritual level of being, granting her access to greater knowledge, abilities, or authority.

My points are:
  • There is no evidence of the size of this realm or place
  • There is no evidence of what this power even do
  • There is no evidence of if the power is infinitely superior to any other Gods who are 2-A
  • As Tanir said; it is unquantifiable to measure the power; but in my opinion I describe it as “unknown”, but yet superior to other Gods.
 
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Deagonx said:
Ultima intended to comment here soon, for what it's worth.
Click to expand...
So, Tanin added some additional stuff in his comment. You still retain your agreement with the downgrade for the same reasons as before?
 
Tanin_iver said:
If the evidence qualifies the above standards then it gets qualitative superiority. It can be through different means such as uncountable infinite size difference, uncountably infinite power, higher spatial dimensions, R>F difference and existential or ontological superiority out of which we are arguing for the last one.
Click to expand...
Here's the problem. Ontological superiority doesn't mean "any form of higher existence can be assumed to be qualitatively superiority."

If that is your basis, that "this is some kind of higher existence therefore QS" through Ontological Superiority" then you just don't understand our standards very well. The phrase "higher existence" doesn't guarantee QS.

Ultima's forthcoming comment may illustrate this further
 
Deagonx said:
Here's the problem. Ontological superiority doesn't mean "any form of higher existence can be assumed to be qualitatively superiority."

If that is your basis, that "this is some kind of higher existence therefore QS" through Ontological Superiority" then you just don't understand our standards very well. The phrase "higher existence" doesn't guarantee QS.
Click to expand...
I assume your vote remains the same as before for the same reasons then?
 
I'm still unable to see the justification for Low 1-C Athena.

I share the same sentiments as @ImmortalDread.

ImmortalDread said:
To maintain fairness, I have read it all as @KLOL506 requested

I think the issue (or the difference in my point of view) is his equating the evidences to ontological superiority which I highly disagree with it.
(beforehand it was existential superiority ?!)

I agree; there is undeniable evidence that she is in a higher plane to the point power corrupted her and also Kratos referred to her appearance (thus the appearance is one of the evidence of her being in higher existence). There is no argument against it. I and Deagonx agreed with this.

But nothing in the whole post suggests any implication or indication of this realm size. Y'all forget that low 1-C is defined by a size, it is a tier. It is a structure of being spatially superior higher than a space-time continuum (or two higher levels of infinity greater) and a power or feat needs to be proven to be able to effect significantly this type of structure.

To realm
We can't simply assume that the realm is on higher dimensionality based on one single statement. Intangibility is not even relevant to the tiering. At best, that realm is some type of metaphysical or spiritual plane where the power is unreachable (and non-reachability is not even proven, but rather a strong possibility)

To power
Neither the power that she gained can even be measured. It is unknown, there is no evidence of how truly strong is this power; it simply said to be superior to all other Gods. There is no evidence of it being significantly infinitely qualitative superior to the entire existence.

Author's interpretation
And I don't think the author was really explicit with his description regarding the power. He did not even imply the qualitative transcendence at all. All I can say is that he emphasizes the significance of Athena's arc in the overall series. Her selflessness and subsequent rise to a higher plane serve as a powerful narrative to convey a message about power, corruption, and the potential consequences of obtaining too much authority.

Let's go deeper; he was entirely talking within the realms of mythology and religion and not mathematical or in a physical sense. In various belief systems, the term “higher plane of existence" often denotes a realm or level of reality that transcends the ordinary physical world. It is not necessarily a physical place, but rather a state of being or consciousness that surpasses the limitations of the material realm (this is even proven that the series is entirely relied on those mythologies)

In our context, Athena's ascension to a higher plane of existence suggests that she has attained a more elevated and powerful state beyond the typical existence of the other gods. It could be interpreted as an advancement to a more divine or spiritual level of being, granting her access to greater knowledge, abilities, or authority.

My points are:
  • There is no evidence of the size of this realm or place
  • There is no evidence of what this power even do
  • There is no evidence of if the power is infinitely superior to any other Gods who are 2-A
  • As Tanir said; it is unquantifiable to measure the power; but in my opinion I describe it as “unknown”, but yet superior to other Gods.
Click to expand...
 
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