Issue with qualitative superiority in God of War (downgrade)

[Deagonx]

Primordials

Which scan calls them a "4-D Conceptual Abstraction?"

And not laws. Just existing prior to and having created reality.

Hence my scrutiny of Georre's statements. It might seem like a small thing, but when little bits and pieces are constantly being added to the evidence without it actually being there, that's a big problem.

This is incorrect, btw. I have my own interpretation and conclusions, based exclusively on the game and its narrative.

I wasn't intending to misrepresent your position, I was just referencing the fact you personally had brought up the "unreachability" aspect and now it appears that this was something Georre made up, not something Cory ever said.

 

[Deagonx]

He demands a direct statement of qualitative superiority for "qualitative superiority", but no standard justifies it. Unfortunately, there is no evidence for what he said

No, I don't. When you made this assertion on my wall I told you directly that you were strawmanning me and ended the discussion. Do not misrepresent me again here, when I have directly informed you that this is not my position.

 

[ImmortalDread]

He demands a direct statement of qualitative superiority for "qualitative superiority", but no standard justifies it. Unfortunately, there is no evidence for what he said

He never demanded that in this thread. Point out where he did.

 

[KLOL506]

Great, what were the scans or statements that said those things?

Here's Planck's response.

The video here. You'll need to watch the entire thing.

Kratos, a dude who could sense 4D magics as a Demigod, interact with 4D Abstract Primordials as a God, and interact with tears in the fabric of space-time in the Norse games, and also sense Freya's magic despite having no prior experience with it, as well as sense Revenants slipping between sheets of reality to evade attacks (All of it is on his profile BTW, you can check), couldn't tell heads or tails about Athena's new form, even questioning how Athena looks Olympian, where Athena responds that appearances can be deceiving.

 

[KLOL506]

He never demanded that. Point out where he did.

The "infinitely superior" part I reckon?

 

[Georredannea15]

He never demanded that. Point out where he did.

Check out him message wall (if not deleted)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Here's Planck's response.

The video here. You'll need to watch the entire thing.

Kratos, a dude who could sense 4D shit as a Demigod, interact with 4D Abstract Primordials, and interact with tears in the fabric of space-time in the Norse games, and also sense Freya's magic despite having no prior experience with it, and sense Revenants slipping between sheets of reality to evade attacks, couldn't tell heads or tails about Athena's new form, even questioning how Athena looks Olympian, where Athena responds that appearances can be deceiving.

And to add to this slightly: The norse were completely incapable of sensing her, despite she appearing to Kratos. The same norse that, upon Kratos' wife runes wearing off, could instantly pick up on Kratos' godly nature.

 

[Georredannea15]

The "infinitely superior" part I reckon?

"qualitative superiority" and "infinitely more powerfull"

 

[Georredannea15]

I wasn't intending to misrepresent your position, I was just referencing the fact you personally had brought up the "unreachability" aspect and now it appears that this was something Georre made up, not something Cory ever said.

Uhhh... What?

 

[Deagonx]

Georre, I am on the cusp of revoking your commenting rights. You have repeatedly misrepresented evidence, provided almost no evidence of your own, and now you are blatantly strawmanning me after I have directly told you twice that you are mischaracterizing my stance. You are providing nothing of value to this discussion, and merely cluttering the thread with many unnecessary comments.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Okay, full stop. Did Ant gave @Georredannea15 permission to keep commenting here?

@Antvasima said only as long as it does not become spammy. You can describe the current event now.

 

[KLOL506]

Which scan calls them a "4-D Conceptual Abstraction?"

Uhhhh... what?

The conceptual abstraction parts are mentioned separately

Reason the Primordials are 4D is because they dwarf the universe in their entirety (Uranus) and some of them embody the realms they created, like Morpheus and Nyx.

 

[KLOL506]

Georre, I am on the cusp of revoking your commenting rights. You have repeatedly misrepresented evidence, provided almost no evidence of your own, and now you are blatantly strawmanning me after I have directly told you twice that you are mischaracterizing my stance. You are providing nothing of value to this discussion, and merely cluttering the thread with many unnecessary comments.

Calm down Deagon, you're not making things any better by accusing Georre of such conduct. He is merely reiterating what Planck already went in detail in the prior CRTs.

 

[Deagonx]

Here's Planck's response.

The video here. You'll need to watch the entire thing.

Kratos, a dude who could sense 4D magics as a Demigod, interact with 4D Abstract Primordials as a God, and interact with tears in the fabric of space-time in the Norse games, and also sense Freya's magic despite having no prior experience with it, as well as sense Revenants slipping between sheets of reality to evade attacks (All of it is on his profile BTW, you can check), couldn't tell heads or tails about Athena's new form, even questioning how Athena looks Olympian, where Athena responds that appearances can be deceiving.

Oh great, another video that I have to transcribe to get to the bottom of what statements you are actually claiming support your position and discuss them publicly.

But better yet, a whole mess of other claims that have no evidence behind them. The fact that Kratos was mildly confused by her appearance and form doesn't contribute whatsoever to the discussion of qualitative superiority.

Uhhhh... what?

The conceptual abstraction parts are mentioned separately

Reason they're 4D is because they dwarf the universe in their entirety (Uranus) and some of them embody the realms they created, like Morpheus and Nyx.

Okay, can you provide actual evidence for your claims?

Calm down Deagon, you're not making things any better by accusing Georre of such conduct. He is merely reiterating what Planck already went in detail in the prior CRTs.

I am not accusing, I am observing. There's no uncertainty to what Georre has done on multiple occassions. You just said so yourself, they did not "exist before laws."

 

[KLOL506]

Oh great, another video that I have to transcribe to get to the bottom of what statements you are actually claiming support your position and discuss them publicly.

I'd suggest you change that tone of yours Deagon. You're only making yourself look worse if you're gonna tackle them this way.

But better yet, a whole mess of other claims that have no evidence behind them.

At this point I am convinced you did not make even a little bit of effort to actually read Kratos' profile or Ctrl+F what I'm talking about.

The fact that Kratos was mildly confused by her appearance and form doesn't contribute whatsoever to the discussion of qualitative superiority.

Way to ignore everything else about the other stuff we talked about.

Okay, can you provide actual evidence for your claims?

Bruh. Uranus literally had the universe in his chin. Nyx is literally darkness itself and embodies her realm of eternal night. Morpheus is dreams. It's on the scans of the Primordials profile.

I am not accusing, I am observing. There's no uncertainty to what Georre has done on multiple occassions. You just said so yourself, they did not "exist before laws."

Some things he didn't know of, true, so I clarified, but a lot of the other stuff still stands.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Calm down Deagon, you're not making things any better by accusing Georre of such conduct. He is merely reiterating what Planck already went in detail in the prior CRTs.

He got accused by Georr outright and involved a topic-off conversation and started spamming (and even was hostile to me);

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Okay, can you provide actual evidence for your claims?

Um,
These were already accepted in other CRTs tho.

But better yet, a whole mess of other claims that have no evidence behind them. The fact that Kratos was mildly confused by her appearance and form doesn't contribute whatsoever to the discussion of qualitative superiority.

It means he is entirely unable to ascertain her true nature. Is supportive evidence of how she's become something more than a god, because if she were still something akin to one, Kratos would pick it up and not have doubts. However, it is to be noted, Athena is attempting to manipulate Kratos in order to gain the power of hope he possess within him, which does make her dialogue kinda fishy overall. That is where the interviews come in, giving clarification there.

 

[KLOL506]

He got accused by Georr outright and

The qualitative superiority thing? Deagon mentioned it in the form of "infinitely superior".

involved a topic-off conversation and started spamming (and even was hostile to me);

And you didn't even bother to check that I warned him?

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. At this point, Georredannea has consistently failed to provide any actual evidence for his claims, simply soap-boxing with large posts that are completely absent of any scans or references. His descriptions of the evidence have very consistently been wrong or editorialized or some way, and I do not see this discussion benefiting whatsoever from his participation here, and I particularly cannot abide him digging in his heels about my own opinion when I have repeatedly informed him that his description is wrong.

I am revoking his permanent posting rights. If he wants to make another comment he needs to have it looked over by a member of staff and have it approved before posting.

At this point I am convinced you did not make even a little bit of effort to actually read Kratos' profile or Ctrl+F what I'm talking about.

It is not my responsibility to seek out your evidence for you or to figure out the source of your claims.

Way to ignore everything else about the other stuff we talked about.

What other stuff? Be specific.

Bruh. Uranus literally had the universe in his chin. Nyx is literally darkness itself and embodies her realm of eternal night. Morpheus is dreams. It's on the scans of the Primordials profile.

Which scans? You have to actually provide evidence for your claims.

Some things he didn't know of, true, so I clarified, but a lot of the other stuff still stands.

That's not what happened. He added something that wasn't there, do you understand? "They existed before laws."

It doesn't matter if the "other stuff still stands" if a third party observer cannot distinguish fact or fiction within his comments. That's why I keep asking for evidence, because the most vocal advocate in this thread has been adding things to the evidence that aren't there, but never actually providing scans or quotes for anyone to verify whether what he's saying is true.

 

[Deagonx]

It means he is entirely unable to ascertain her true nature. Is supportive evidence of how she's become something more than a god, because if she were still something akin to one, Kratos would pick it up and not have doubts. However, it is to be noted, Athena is attempting to manipulate Kratos in order to gain the power of hope he possess within him, which does make her dialogue kinda fishy overall. That is where the interviews come in, giving clarification there.

Surely you recognize that this does not contribute to the assessment of whether or not she has qualitative superiority, which was my main point.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Surely you recognize that this does not contribute to the assessment of whether or not she has qualitative superiority, which was my main point.

And I'm explaining how it does. "More than a god"

You have taken the position her new-form power as she's described possessing could be merely a x1000 beyond the pantheons, no? And not necessarily she's transcendent of them.

Well, this point is support against that notion. Zeus has infinite potential, is constantly growing and achieving greater heights in power. He's still unmistakably a god, and still within Kratos' reach in power. Athena is not.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The qualitative superiority thing? Deagon mentioned it in the form of "infinitely superior".

You can't imply that the power which is never specified to be infinitely superior without some form of evidence that imply this (or hell, even context, you mentioned scaling chain but still was vague about it).

Let's be realistic; Deagonx presented many possibilities (10x more powerful, 10,000x more powerful) and none of supporters refused to even address it why those “possibilities” should not be taken into consideration.

I mean if you disagree with those possibilities, you could have addressed them (for example, @LephyrTheRevanchist just recently addressed them)

 

[KLOL506]

It is not my responsibility to seek out your evidence for you or to figure out the source of your claims.

It absolutely is. You're staff, you have a responsibility to check if what the profile says is actually there. Or do you simply not want to even bother in the first place?

What other stuff? Be specific.

The "unable to sense, interact with, or reach the level of" stuff.

Which scans? You have to actually provide evidence for your claims.

You're kidding.

Uranus. Literally. Gif speaks for itself. You want more info? Read this.

Nyx. The night sky literally follows with her. Helios kicks her ass on a regular basis and banishes her to bring about day.

Chaos. She is comparable to her Primordial Children in size and birthed them.

That's not what happened. He added something that wasn't there, do you understand? "They existed before laws."

And I corrected him, did I not?

The laws thing would've been correct had there not been a retcon done by GoW Ascension.

It doesn't matter if the "other stuff still stands" if a third party observer cannot distinguish fact or fiction within his comments. That's why I keep asking for evidence, because the most vocal advocate in this thread has been adding things to the evidence that aren't there, but never actually providing scans or quotes for anyone to verify whether what he's saying is true.

And I've been telling you, you can just Ctrl+F it all on the profile.

 

[KLOL506]

You can't imply that the power which is never specified to be infinitely superior without some form of evidence that imply this (or hell, even context, you mentioned scaling chain but still was vague about it).

Tanin already addressed that concern for me so I didn't see the need to.

Let's be realistic; Deagonx presented many possibilities (10x more powerful, 10,000x more powerful) and none of supporters refused to even address it why those “possibilities” should not be taken into consideration.

Maybe you should ask Tanin again on what he elaborated upon in his comment?

 

[Planck69]

What even is this nonsensical back-and-forth? I try my damn hardest to stay away from this thread yet every casual check is filled with this stuff.

All of this can just be summarised with "I don't think the evidence is enough to imply qualitative superiority" and moving on from that.

 

[Deagonx]

Well, this point is support against that notion. Zeus has infinite potential, is constantly growing and achieving greater heights in power. He's still unmistakably a god, and still within Kratos' reach in power. Athena is not.

The key word here is potential. This is essentially Zeno's paradox. Zeus can continue to grow and achieve greater heights, but you don't need qualitative superiority to be beyond him. It could also be the case that his growth occurs at a rate slow enough that the level to which Athena was raised is too far off in the distance for it to be relevant to the story. We can't make those kinds of assumptions.

There's also nothing about him having "infinite potential" on his profile so I'd like to see the evidence that this comes from.

It absolutely is. You're staff, you have a responsibility to check if what the profile says is actually there. Or do you simply not want to even bother in the first place?

You are the one making the claim. It is your responsibility to provide evidence for your claims.

The "unable to sense, interact with, or reach the level of" stuff.

I cannot sense or interact with dark matter, is it qualitatively superior? I cannot reach the level of strength of Batman. Is he qualitatively superior?

Uranus. Literally.

How do you figure that's a universe exactly?

Nyx. The night sky literally follows with her. Helios kicks her ass on a regular basis and banishes her to bring about day.

What relevance does that have to this discussion?

And I've been telling you, you can just Ctrl+F it all on the profile.

You're the one making the claims. Other people are not responsible for figuring out the source of your evidence.

 

[KLOL506]

What even is this nonsensical back-and-forth? I try my damn hardest to stay away from this thread yet every casual check is filled with this stuff.

All of this can just be summarised with "I don't think the evidence is enough to imply qualitative superiority" and moving on from that.

Blame Deagon, he kept asking about "provide scans" about Primordials, Kratos' magic sensing powers of Freya and interaction with Realm Tears when they were literally a Ctrl+F away.

 

[Deagonx]

All of this can just be summarised with "I don't think the evidence is enough to imply qualitative superiority" and moving on from that.

It's kind of a problem when stuff like this is being painted as some opinion. This honestly isn't even a question about God of War, it's a question about our standards. All we have, literally all we have is a vague notion of higher power and higher realm. This quite literally is not enough to assert qualitative superiority. The fluff that's been proposed around it is composed solely of things that aren't even relevant to this determination, like "Well Kratos was surprised by her new form" or "the gods can't access that realm" which has nothing to do with QS.

We cannot simply assume QS when theres this huge gap in evidence simply because "I feel like it probably is." If there's that much room for doubt in the first place, it's a definite no.

 

[KLOL506]

How do you figure that's a universe exactly?

Please tell me this is a serious question.

Just read this. I can't even.

What relevance does that have to this discussion?

Same reason Uranus has relevance to the discussion.

You're the one making the claims. Other people are not responsible for figuring out the source of your evidence.

And I'm telling you, the evidence is one Ctrl+F away.

 

[Deagonx]

Please tell me this is a serious question.

Just read this. I can't even.

Exasperation directed at people that don't immediately buy into your conclusion is the sign of insufficient evidence.

Same reason Uranus has relevance to the discussion.

Do tell.

And I'm telling you, the evidence is one Ctrl+F away.

Great, so it'll be very easy for you -- the person making these claims -- to support yourself with evidence.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Blame Deagon, he kept asking about "provide scans" about Primordials, Kratos' magic sensing powers of Freya and interaction with Realm Tears when they were literally a Ctrl+F away.

This is not our job to support your claim.

You in fact did the same thing to me, page ago. This became exhausting. In which world should opponents search for evidence to support the claim from supporters?

@LephyrTheRevanchist @Planck69 This became a bit unproductive, someone needs to moderate this. There is no logical reason to support this request.

 

[KLOL506]

Exasperation directed at people that don't immediately buy into your conclusion is the sign of insufficient evidence.

I literally gave you the link and the evidence now. What more do you want?

Do tell.

Primordials dwarfing the universe (Uranus literally containing it inside his chin when Ceto the Green Primordial punched it out of his face)? Nyx having created her Realm of Eternal Night and it following her wherever she goes, because she also encompasses the Realm as part of herself?

Great, so it'll be very easy for you -- the person making these claims -- to support yourself with evidence.

Check Kratos's Enhanced Senses and Extrasensory Perception section on his Demigod key and GoW/Norse keys, and check his NPI on his GoW key/Norse keys. Also check his Info Analysis on his Demigod and Norse keys.

There, happy?

 

[Planck69]

The key word here is potential. This is essentially Zeno's paradox. Zeus can continue to grow and achieve greater heights, but you don't need qualitative superiority to be beyond him. It could also be the case that his growth occurs at a rate slow enough that the level to which Athena was raised is too far off in the distance for it to be relevant to the story. We can't make those kinds of assumptions.

This is also a baffling assumption. Multiple gods have ever-growing power and this reasons out that the power of higher plane of existence is something Kratos would just eventually reach passively, had he been loyal to Olympus. Or Hades. Or Zeus etc.

I get that we shouldn't make too many assumptions but this seems to pedantry for the sake of it.

There's also nothing about him having "infinite potential" on his profile so I'd like to see the evidence that this comes from.

He grows in strength and power with combat with no confirmed upper limit. It's basically just pointing to his Accelerated Development, something that allows him to keep up with Kratos, who grows "stronger and faster every moment".

Really, I feel like a large part of the issues here is the strange need for logical conclusions to be drip fed to people evaluating this.

I cannot sense or interact with dark matter, is it qualitatively superior? I cannot reach the level of strength of Batman. Is he qualitatively superior?

This is just more pedantry. Like, I can see the argument that it may be due to her nature but this counter is far more silly than you think it is.

How do you figure that's a universe exactly?

The fact that the Big Bang happened when he got socked in the face and it basically spilled out of him by Ceto? Him being called the father and creator of the universe in specific reference to that event?


@KLOL506 I can't believe you actually got me arguing this thread smh.


Anyway, whatever to disagreement on the overall tiering being sufficient, I just had to address some of this stuff.

 

[KLOL506]

This is not our job to support your claim.

My claims are already on the pages. It's you're job to ensure the descriptions I am mentioning for the profiles have the scans present.

Hell, now I even specified where exactly on the pages to look.

You in fact did the same thing to me, page ago. This became exhausting. In which world should opponents search for evidence to support the claim from supporters?

In the kind of world where you ignore everything else they said prior.

 

[Planck69]

Anyway, are there any more staff to be called here? AFAIK we have 1 agree, 1 neutral and 1 disagree (Feel free to correct me).

 

[Deagonx]

I literally gave you the link and the evidence now. What more do you want?

I honestly don't know why you gave me that link, all it provides is the same gif we are discussion, and also "he was called the father of the universe." You could've just told me that's the reasoning. It is entirely possible him being the father of the universe had nothing to do with what happened in that gif, so that's really not helpful in determining "the universe was his chin."

Primordials dwarfing the universe (Uranus literally containing it inside his chin when Ceto the Green Primordial punched it out of his face)? Nyx having created her Realm of Eternal Night and it following her wherever she goes, because she also encompasses the Realm as part of herself?

Well there's no actual evidence of Uranus containing it inside his chin. It's just a vague gif with glittery lights, supported solely by the fact that Uranus was said to have created the universe. I am happy to concede that Uranus created the universe, but nothing more than that. There's literally no evidence.

Check Kratos's Enhanced Senses and Extrasensory Perception section on his Demigod key and GoW/Norse keys, and check his NPI on his GoW key/Norse keys. Also check his Info Analysis on his Demigod and Norse keys.

There, happy?

If you went so far to figure out the exact sections, why are you not simply posting the evidence? Are you trying to prove a point or something? You are the one making the claims, so just provide the appropriate scans when you make certain points so that everyone can clearly see that what you're saying is true.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Deagon and Dread

KLOL has provided evidence. Evidence we have accepted and is part of our profiles. You can disagree with em, but you both know you would have to make a new thread to get em downgraded if you want to dismiss em (since tackling them here would be derailing).

As of now, everything brought up by KLOL is accepted, and thus eligible evidence. You can, of course, disagree that these are enough anyways, and that's fine. But please stop making this more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Anyway, are there any more staff to be called here? AFAIK we have 1 agree, 1 neutral and 1 disagree (Feel free to correct me).

2 neutrals.

@Firestorm808 and I. He is of course free to clarify.

 

[Planck69]

I honestly don't know why you gave me that link, all it provides is the same gif we are discussion, and also "he was called the father of the universe." You could've just told me that's the reasoning. It is entirely possible him being the father of the universe had nothing to do with what happened in that gif, so that's really not helpful in determining "the universe was his chin."


Well there's no actual evidence of Uranus containing it inside his chin. It's just a vague gif with glittery lights, supported solely by the fact that Uranus was said to have created the universe. I am happy to concede that Uranus created the universe, but nothing more than that. There's literally no evidence.


If you went so far to figure out the exact sections, why are you not simply posting the evidence? Are you trying to prove a point or something? You are the one making the claims, so just provide the appropriate scans when you make certain points so that everyone can clearly see that what you're saying is true.

OMG, you can't be satisfied by anything. He gives you the sections (with powers and scans that have refs) to look at, do that. This is starting to come across as desperate reaching for a "lack of evidence".

 

[Deagonx]

This is also a baffling assumption. Multiple gods have ever-growing power and this reasons out that the power of higher plane of existence is something Kratos would just eventually reach passively, had he been loyal to Olympus. Or Hades. Or Zeus etc.

I get that we shouldn't make too many assumptions but this seems to pedantry for the sake of it.

What do you mean by pedantry? You can't just call standards of evidence "pedantry" and think that's a good reason to draw conclusions based on insufficient evidence.

How does that information suggest to us that this is qualitative superiority?

He grows in strength and power with combat with no confirmed upper limit. It's basically just pointing to his Accelerated Development, something that allows him to keep up with Kratos, who grows "stronger and faster every moment".

Really, I feel like a large part of the issues here is the strange need for logical conclusions to be drip fed to people evaluating this.

You can use a phrase like "drip fed" to be dimunitive towards the people actually holding this verse to a standard of evidence, but there's nothing unreasonable about saying "This could very well be a non-QS higher realm that is more powerful in a way that isn't infinitely higher, so where does that come from?" and rejecting it when it was revealed that there was nothing else beyond that.

This is just more pedantry. Like, I can see the argument that it may be due to her nature but this counter is far more silly than you think it is.

It's not pedantry, it's pointing out how the information we are using to draw these conclusions simply does not get us there. Do you have anything to say other than "this is pedantry, your counter is silly?" Because if not, then maybe just recognize that your argument is insufficient and accept that Athena does not have an infinitely higher level of power?

The fact that the Big Bang happened when he got socked in the face and it basically spilled out of him by Ceto? Him being called the father and creator of the universe in specific reference to that event?

How do we know it is the big bang?

I see that he is called the father of the universe, but from where did you draw the conclusion that him being called that was "in reference to that specific event?"