• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Issue with qualitative superiority in God of War (downgrade)

Status
Not open for further replies.
but at the same time, when we are directly shown this character is entirely unreachable even by the standards of the rest of the verse, it does start to paint a clear picture.
I just really don't think that this does it. If she were, say, 10,000x more powerful would she not also be completely unreachable?

To me this isn't something we should be giving out based on like, cosmological vibe-checks. If you can write a realm that has these properties but isn't QS by our standards, then we need more evidence that rules out the other possibilities. For this we really don't have much of anything. Athena's more powerful, she's in a higher and unreachable realm. Far too many non-QS ways for that to happen for us to be handing out additional infinities like this.
 
I just really don't think that this does it. If she were, say, 10,000x more powerful would she not also be completely unreachable?

To me this isn't something we should be giving out based on like, cosmological vibe-checks. If you can write a realm that has these properties but isn't QS by our standards, then we need more evidence that rules out the other possibilities. For this we really don't have much of anything. Athena's more powerful, she's in a higher and unreachable realm. Far too many non-QS ways for that to happen for us to be handing out additional infinities like this.
Noted. Let's just agree to disagree.
 
Was "unreachability" an implication or statement? I failed to see it its existence after I am now searching through the evidences.
 
Was "unreachability" an implication or statement? I failed to see it its existence after I am now searching through the evidences.
An explanation given by Cory. In fact, the reason for this was that "Athena and higher plane of existence couldn't even comprehend with their minds (4-D beings) and completely transcended the lower plane and existence and power levels due to Athena's higher existence.
 
An explanation given by Cory. In fact, the reason for this was that "Athena and higher plane of existence couldn't even comprehend with their minds (4-D beings) and completely transcended the lower plane and existence and power levels due to Athena's higher existence.
That is indeed correct.
 
An explanation given by Cory. In fact, the reason for this was that "Athena and higher plane of existence couldn't even comprehend with their minds (4-D beings) and completely transcended the lower plane and existence and power levels due to Athena's higher existence.
Is this a verbatim quote? Can you link the interview so that it can be confirmed?
 
An explanation given by Cory. In fact, the reason for this was that "Athena and higher plane of existence couldn't even comprehend with their minds (4-D beings) and completely transcended the lower plane and existence and power levels due to Athena's higher existence.
You are referring to the interview, if I am not wrong.

Can you once again share me the timestamp where he implied or stated unreachability or that one
Athena and higher plane of existence couldn't even comprehend with their minds (4-D beings) and completely transcended the lower plane and existence and power levels due to Athena's higher existence.
 
I respectfully asked for timestamp and not causing any offense since I myself watched it and did not see that implication.
I will wait for @Georredannea15 to provide it.

This is an essential part since we want to be transparent with the existence of those evidence and evaluate if they are correct or wrong.
 
I respectfully asked for timestamp and not causing any offense since I myself watched it and did not see that implication.
I will wait for @Georredannea15 to provide it.

This is an essential part since we want to be transparent with the existence of those evidence and evaluate if they are correct or wrong.
I have no idea what you refer to as "timestamp". I will be glad if you explain.(Bruhh... I understand now)

Other than that it's not really my problem if you can't see the exact statements and other contexts. After all, no one is forcing you.
 
I have no idea what you refer to as "timestamp". I will be glad if you explain.(Bruhh... I understand now)

Other than that it's not really my problem if you can't see the exact statements and other contexts. After all, no one is forcing you.
better-call-saul-lalo-salamanca.gif
 
Well, they're not exactly verbatim, but close enough.
Yeesh. Dude. You can't just editorialize the evidence when people are being persuaded by things that aren't in any of these videos.

Video 1: A lot of the time the gods are metaphors, and stories about the corruption of power. When you have that much power, that much absolute control, it's very easy to start sliding and Kratos was the example of "how much can he fall when he's given that much power" and he ended up becoming worse than Ares. She [Athena] was selfless, she died protecting Zeus, but in that selfless act she was the first god to be selfless, and that allowed her to ascend to a higher plane. She ended up going to a place that was higher than everybody else, and it totally messes with her head. She becomes just as bad as everybody else because she experiences a power greater than everybody, so it is always that kind of message."

Video 2: The arc of Athena was the most important arc of the entire series -- to show that she was the one greek god that did something selfless: she sacrificed herself to protect Zeus, and that actually allowed her to ascend to a higher realm, and she ended up realizing "oh look, there's more power up here" so it sort of corrupts her a little bit and she's sort of orchestrating the demise of the other gods.

Where does "unreachability" and "completely transcends" come from @Georredannea15?

No, unless you want to suggest her dimension is special enough that dimensional travel abilities are not able to enter.
I mean, if that is an explanation that doesn't require QS, then we absolutely shouldn't assume QS. I don't see how "an infinite jump in power" is preferable to a different explanation like "this realm has some property that only allows specific people to enter." In Athena's case, she got there by committing a selfless act.
 
I respectfully asked for timestamp and not causing any offense since I myself watched it and did not see that implication.
I will wait for @Georredannea15 to provide it.
I can teach you how to get timestamps.

During editing, if you see a couple of &t=1s or something similar, it should tell you exactly where it's at on the video.

Since I am on PC, the timestamp appears automatically for me upon clicking.

After the youtube link, you add &t=(Insert your seconds) and you get a timestamped version for all to fast-forward to.

For example, &t=180s (&t=3m) or &t=2h45m40s
 
Yeesh. Dude. You can't just editorialize the evidence when people are being persuaded by things that aren't in any of these videos.
Bruh. Higher power, higher plane, higher than everybody else (Includes all the denizens of all the Pantheons), higher realm, the conclusions were all drawn from there plus the other stuff that Planck stated.

The rest I will let Georre explain.
 
Yeesh. Dude. You can't just editorialize the evidence when people are being persuaded by things that aren't in any of these videos.

Video 1: A lot of the time the gods are metaphors, and stories about the corruption of power. When you have that much power, that much absolute control, it's very easy to start sliding and Kratos was the example of "how much can he fall when he's given that much power" and he ended up becoming worse than Ares. She [Athena] was selfless, she died protecting Zeus, but in that selfless act she was the first god to be selfless, and that allowed her to ascend to a higher plane. She ended up going to a place that was higher than everybody else, and it totally messes with her head. She becomes just as bad as everybody else because she experiences a power greater than everybody, so it is always that kind of message."

Video 2: The arc of Athena was the most important arc of the entire series -- to show that she was the one greek god that did something selfless: she sacrificed herself to protect Zeus, and that actually allowed her to ascend to a higher realm, and she ended up realizing "oh look, there's more power up here" so it sort of corrupts her a little bit and she's sort of orchestrating the demise of the other gods.

Where does "unreachability" and "completely transcends" come from @Georredannea15?


I mean, if that is an explanation that doesn't require QS, then we absolutely shouldn't assume QS. I don't see how "an infinite jump in power" is preferable to a different explanation like "this realm has some property that only allows specific people to enter." In Athena's case, she got there by committing a selfless act.
These were from some statements, contexts and feats in the game, and I remember the interview was not that much.

Cory was certainly denoting that he had degenerated by ascending to a power that beyond all(all pantheons and 4-D primordial beings) and was unfathomable.

Available in feats that support it.

And why is everyone concentrating on one statement? Combine and evaluate statements, feats and contexts that support each other, because they all support each other like a chain and fall into place.
 
I mean, if that is an explanation that doesn't require QS, then we absolutely shouldn't assume QS. I don't see how "an infinite jump in power" is preferable to a different explanation like "this realm has some property that only allows specific people to enter." In Athena's case, she got there by committing a selfless act.
Because we are given the perspective that her "apotheosis" granted her power. When we have beings that can't reach this place despite holding infinite potential (Zeus), and even did a similar kind of apotheosis themselves (Fear) and still can't reach it. Starts making you think.

But as I said to Dread in private, I am not saying these are enough to suggest the upgrade. But I at least can understand where they are coming from.

That's why I'm neutral.
 
Bruh. Higher power, higher plane, higher than everybody else (Includes all the denizens of all the Pantheons), higher realm, the conclusions were all drawn from there plus the other stuff that Planck stated.

The rest I will let Georre explain.
The fact that it's a higher plane isn't what's being contested here dude. Being 100x more powerful than the other gods doesn't mean you're infinitely more powerful than the other gods. The fact is that the concept of it being "unreachable" is being pulled from thin air and being presented as though it were an author statement, notably, to the point of potentially persuading @LephyrTheRevanchist

Cory was certainly denoting that he had degenerated by ascending to a power that beyond all(all pantheons and 4-D primordial beings) and was unfathomable.
Stop assigning dimensionality to normal beings. It's super misleading. Where is "unfathomable" coming from?

Because we are given the perspective that her "apotheosis" granted her power. When we have beings that can't reach this place despite holding infinite potential (Zeus), and even did a similar kind of apotheosis themselves (Fear) and still can't reach it. Starts making you think.

But as I said to Dread in private, I am not saying these are enough to suggest the upgrade. But I at least can understand where they are coming from.

That's why I'm neutral.
I can see where they're coming from too, but despite where they're coming from, they clearly aren't making it across the finish line. I wouldn't object to this as a mere perspective or take on the possibilities of situation, but for us to give a character this big of an upgrade, we need more than that.
 
Yeesh. Dude. You can't just editorialize the evidence when people are being persuaded by things that aren't in any of these videos.

Video 1: A lot of the time the gods are metaphors, and stories about the corruption of power. When you have that much power, that much absolute control, it's very easy to start sliding and Kratos was the example of "how much can he fall when he's given that much power" and he ended up becoming worse than Ares. She [Athena] was selfless, she died protecting Zeus, but in that selfless act she was the first god to be selfless, and that allowed her to ascend to a higher plane. She ended up going to a place that was higher than everybody else, and it totally messes with her head. She becomes just as bad as everybody else because she experiences a power greater than everybody, so it is always that kind of message."

Video 2: The arc of Athena was the most important arc of the entire series -- to show that she was the one greek god that did something selfless: she sacrificed herself to protect Zeus, and that actually allowed her to ascend to a higher realm, and she ended up realizing "oh look, there's more power up here" so it sort of corrupts her a little bit and she's sort of orchestrating the demise of the other gods.

Where does "unreachability" and "completely transcends" come from @Georredannea15?


I mean, if that is an explanation that doesn't require QS, then we absolutely shouldn't assume QS. I don't see how "an infinite jump in power" is preferable to a different explanation like "this realm has some property that only allows specific people to enter." In Athena's case, she got there by committing a selfless act.
Also, with him will and endless potential, Kratos can resist and influence all abstractions and forces on same plane of existence, but even this could not make him interact with Athena.
 
Also, with him will and endless potential, Kratos can resist and influence all abstractions and forces on same plane of existence, but even this could not make him interact with Athena.
Post the evidence that these phrases come from. If it's a video, write out the pertinent part of the video verbatim. I can no longer take you at your word on evidence, you are adding things.
 
Stop assigning dimensionality to normal beings. It's super misleading. Where is "unfathomable" coming from?
There are not normal beings, these are primordial beings and these beings are 4-dimensional conceptual abstractions with a universal sized that existed before time, existence and laws.
 
There are not normal beings, these are primordial beings and these beings are 4-dimensional conceptual abstractions with a universal sized that existed before time, existence and laws.
Post the evidence that these phrases come from. If it's a video, write out the pertinent part of the video verbatim. I can no longer take you at your word on evidence, you are adding things. Where in the GoW series was a being called a "4-dimensional conceptual abstraction with a universal size that existed before existence and laws?"
 
Post the evidence that these phrases come from. If it's a video, write out the pertinent part of the video verbatim. I can no longer take you at your word on evidence, you are adding things.
KLOL had these in-game and with extra emotes about it, and I don't have them unfortunately. And lepyh also explained it
 
The fact that it's a higher plane isn't what's being contested here dude. Being 100x more powerful than the other gods doesn't mean you're infinitely more powerful than the other gods. The fact is that the concept of it being "unreachable" is being pulled from thin air and being presented as though it were an author statement, notably, to the point of potentially persuading @LephyrTheRevanchist
Pretty sure the "infinitely more powerful" arguments were already addressed by Tanin so I don't see the point in discussing this further.

Stop assigning dimensionality to normal beings. It's super misleading. Where is "unfathomable" coming from?
Jesus dude, calm down, no need to get so tensed.

I can see where they're coming from too, but despite where they're coming from, they clearly aren't making it across the finish line.
What's that supposed to mean?

I wouldn't object to this as a mere perspective or take on the possibilities of situation, but for us to give a character this big of an upgrade, we need more than that.
Pretty sure it was argued as being pure semantics, but whatever. We'll let the other staff decide. You're just one vote in the discussion.
 
Post the evidence that these phrases come from. If it's a video, write out the pertinent part of the video verbatim. I can no longer take you at your word on evidence, you are adding things. Where in the GoW series was a being called a "4-dimensional conceptual abstraction with a universal size that existed before existence and laws?"
Just look at the primordials profiles...
 
Post the evidence that these phrases come from. If it's a video, write out the pertinent part of the video verbatim. I can no longer take you at your word on evidence, you are adding things.
He's just reiterating what Planck elaborated upon in his original upgrade thread. The "unable to sense, interact with or even reach the level of Athena" part that is.
 
KLOL had these in-game and with extra emotes about it, and I don't have them unfortunately. And lepyh also explained it
Oh crazy. The evidence mysteriously disappears again.

Pretty sure the "infinitely more powerful" arguments were already addressed by Tanin so I don't see the point in discussing this further.
And I addressed those arguments. We are assuming an infinite increase in power, there's no evidence of one.

Pretty sure it was argued as being pure semantics, but whatever. We'll let the other staff decide. You're just one vote in the discussion.
Calling it "semantics" when it's pointed out that there's no actual evidence doesn't really change the fact that there's no actual evidence.

Just look at the primordials profiles...
This is a debate. You have to provide evidence for your claims. Don't just describe to me where you think the evidence might be.
 
The fact that it's a higher plane isn't what's being contested here dude. Being 100x more powerful than the other gods doesn't mean you're infinitely more powerful than the other gods. The fact is that the concept of it being "unreachable" is being pulled from thin air and being presented as though it were an author statement, notably, to the point of potentially persuading @LephyrTheRevanchist
This is incorrect, btw. I have my own interpretation and conclusions, based exclusively on the game and its narrative.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top