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Obviously a reaction feat done with Kenbunshoku Haki wouldn't apply to himself without Kenbenshoku Haki, but shouldn't it still be mentioned in the speed ratings section?
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Isshiki Rod to Reactions Blitzing
- Thread starter ihsan
- Start date
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And when is Kenbunshoku Haki stated to be lightspeed in reactions? Cause the calc doesn't show this statement. Nor does any profile have, Lightspeed with Kenbunshoku Haki this listed on it. Not even the haki page has this listed.
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We've already discussed the "too slow" being about the laser.
Please don't bring this argument up again.
Please don't bring this argument up again.
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I have no idea, One Piece profiles don't mention Kenbunshoku Haki Reactions for speed on the profiles
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Only times we do is when it's dramatically superior, like Future Sight or the Mantra users who spam it over and over
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Katakuri doesn't have lightspeed neither does Enel, both characters who use it the most. And with that said, if our profiles don't note it, nothing else we have for the verse notes it, and there is no direct statement of Kenbunshoku Haki being lightspeed, why are you both acting like lightspeed Kenbunshoku is valid for the One Piece calc, but then saying that the Naruto one isn't.
Both Luffy and Naruto react to a lightspeed attack.
Both are then blitzed by another character.
Both calcs then make the assumption that means that in order for those attacks to blitz, they have to be faster than lightspeed but without any other info, lowball lightspeed to get a timeframe.
I see nothing that would make one valid over the other, so the Naruto calc shouldn't be dismissed as long as the One Piece calc stands. Unless there's another issue with the Naruto calc.
Both Luffy and Naruto react to a lightspeed attack.
Both are then blitzed by another character.
Both calcs then make the assumption that means that in order for those attacks to blitz, they have to be faster than lightspeed but without any other info, lowball lightspeed to get a timeframe.
I see nothing that would make one valid over the other, so the Naruto calc shouldn't be dismissed as long as the One Piece calc stands. Unless there's another issue with the Naruto calc.
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Lmao, aight. CRT coming up now then.
One calls light slow, the other one gets skimmed by light. One is blatantly lightspeed, the other has calcs ranging from rel to ftl.
... because we accept it already on the wiki?
If your argument is literally "the profiles don't say it", you do know we can just... make a CRT to add it right?
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Should've been up before the One Piece calc was accepted, don't you think?
Calling light slow isn't good support because it can still be calced as Agnaa said, you're just choosing not to calc it for some reason. Luffy isn't stated to move at lightspeed or even react at lightspeed. He just calls light slow. So that's not really support
Then this Naruto calc should be fine to go through right?
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No, because it was very irrelevant. The mechanics were listed on Kaidou's page.
"It can still be calced". Do you really think this is a good argument?
You're telling me because there's a possibility it could be calced, it's calc stacking?
No, because that calculation is based on an entirely different calculation.
If the FTL Naruto calc didn't exist, there'd be no basis to say "these dudes have SOL reactions"
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It is very much relevant since this is apparently something all Future Sights users have, yet it's never been put up there.
Yes, because simply put, Luffy isn't called lightspeed ever. Neither is his reactions. So without direct statement of the speed or something showing us blatantly outspeeding light, then you're supposed to calc it. We're not allowed to give someone lightspeed reactions without any of the above. And for that calc, Luffy is given lightspeed reactions.
Naruto dodged a lightspeed attack, just like Luffy did. So if luffy reacting to a lightspeed attack can give him lightspeed reactions, why can't the same be said for Naruto? Cause Luffy said the light was too slow? All that shows is Luffy reacting to the attack. It shouldn't be grounds for anything else than that.
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Yeah, this is the core of it pretty much.
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Well the core of it is pretty hilariously wrong because we’re not exactly caring about Luffy’s speed. Luffy with Kenbunshoku Haki considers light to be “too slow,” yet this same Luffy couldn’t avoid Thunder Bagua. Basic scaling logic dictates that this means Thunder Bagua > light
My genuine, unfiltered opinion is that I don’t get why this is so hard for people to understand, to the point that now not calculating anything is still calc stacking just because “well you technically could calc it.” Like, no, that’s not how it works
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@CloverDragon03 But the Thunder Bagua isn't just being rated "FTL (Faster than light according to Luffy)". It's being used as the basis of a calc for the Thunder Bagua.
If the Thunder Bagua was just rated as baseline FTL, I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be an issue.
If the Thunder Bagua was just rated as baseline FTL, I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be an issue.
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It's calc stacking when you would otherwise need a calc to get the value though.
Like again, Luffy calling the light attack slow shouldn't be grounds enough to say his reactions are lightspeed. As stated before, you don't have to be speed of light to avoid or react to it, that speed can wildly differ. So giving Luffy lightspeed reactions for the calc is not a fact but an assumption being made to make the calc.
Like again, Luffy calling the light attack slow shouldn't be grounds enough to say his reactions are lightspeed. As stated before, you don't have to be speed of light to avoid or react to it, that speed can wildly differ. So giving Luffy lightspeed reactions for the calc is not a fact but an assumption being made to make the calc.
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If we know that Thunder Bagua > light, we can use light speed as a bare minimum for Thunder Bagua’s speed. No calculation is required for that
Saying that not using a calc at all is calc stacking is probably the most hilarious thing I’ve heard all day.
Saying that not using a calc at all is calc stacking is probably the most hilarious thing I’ve heard all day.
Luffy’s speed is irrelevant, what matters is his perception of light vs. his perception of Thunder Bagua. You don’t need a calc for that
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Right. That's what I said.
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TL;DR We’re not comparing Luffy to Thunder Bagua. That would be calc stacking. Instead, we’re comparing the laser to Thunder Bagua
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Yeah, so where’s the calc stacking in the Thunder Bagua calcs?
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Did you overlook that the Thunder Bagua's speed is currently found through a calc? Not through the method you just described.
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A calc is required when the thing that links them together is Luffy's reaction speed.
Luffy's reaction speed is the entire basis for all of this. Because he's the one getting blitzed. So yes, if he doesn't have a stated reaction speed, he very much needs a calc in order to give him a reaction speed for that instance. And if he needs a calc for that speed, then its going to be calc stacking. Very much you're not calcing something which should be calced to avoid it being called calc stacking.
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He called light 'too slow' and Bagua 'too fast'. That means its 'too fast by the standards of someone who easily views light as slow'.
I recall you saying we strive for accuracy once. This is blatant downplaying for the sake of another verse.
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Okay I’m looking at the calcs again so I missed something. Still, my stance has not changed. It’s just different wording now.
If Luffy considers light speed to be slow with Kenbunshoku Haki, without any calc, then why can’t Thunder Bagua be calced using his reactions?
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He dodged light and proceeded to call it slow. That's literally a stated reaction speed. He reacted to a laser beam and said in comparaison to his reflexes it's 'too slow'.
Luffy with kenbun considers light 'too slow'
Luffy with advanced kenbun that dwarves his previous reflex advantage considers Kaido 'too fast'. Therefore Kaido's thunder Bagua is at least faster than the laser beam Luffy reacted to.
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If Luffy’s reaction speed is such that light is slow to him, then his reactions are light speed at minimum, otherwise light wouldn’t be slow to him. Thus, that reaction speed can be used for Thunder Bagua, especially because Luffy with Kenbunshoku Haki considers it too fast
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Because we still don't know Luffy's actual reaction speed from that statement. Calling something slow, doesn't give you an actual speed. It could be in the ballpark of half the speed of light or two times faster, either way we don't have an explicit speed from the source. And when we don't have explicit speeds we're supposed to calc them. That is the standard
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Another verse?
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If you’re saying to calc Luffy dodging that laser where he says it’s too slow, that doesn’t work. Looking at Luffy’s small movement (tilting his head) compared to the movement of the laser, you’d 100% get a result below the speed of light. That’s completely inconsistent with what the narrative is stating.
If his reactions are such that light is slow to him, there’s no reason why it’d be below light speed, that’s just not consistent at all. The narrative should take precedence over a fan calc
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But we do though. He reacts fast enough that LIGHT SPEED IS TOO SLOW.
But his reactions are slow enough that Kaido himself is too fast.
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That's not a specific timeframe.
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I think he means how this whole argument started because someone who supported a Naruto calc that actively stacked Naruto’s calculated 2c speed complained about “One Piece doing this”
Even though the cases are substantially different
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Oh... well if that's the case, I hope they're aware that my argument does not support the Naruto verse at all.
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I know. That doesn't mean you should blatantly downgrade One Piece so the Naruto one gets rejected. You've done it twice now with a weird specific interpertation and now the suggestion that Kaido's speed gets downgraded to an 'at least' when its reasoning for how high it is, is just fine.
Why is One Piece even still being talked about? This is the first time another verse got so focused on in a completely unrelated CRT and no one's shooting it down. We might as well retitle this to an OP crt or a reaction speed stacking one.
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Then make a seperate One Piece verse CRT. Everyone else who're using it as a benchmark should focus on the characters within their own verse or make a One Piece crt as well.
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I wasn't the one who brought up One Piece. That should be directed towards Agnaa I believe.
One Piece was still being talked about because in the eyes of Agnaa and others, it's a related situation to the current topic of the thread.
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It's fine to think that, but that's not going to just make them drop it. Though who knows, when Agnaa wakes up, maybe they'll make a separate CRT.
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No they're not. Again, the only difference between these things is that luffy called one attack slow and the other attack fast. He doesn't even compare the attacks.
The narrative is showing Luffy dodged a lightspeed. Luffy is stating the light is too slow. It isn't inconistent unless Luffy himself says he dodged at lightspeed and we calc something slower from it. We don't see him seeing light in slow motion or anything like that. Luffy just says, Too slow. The narrative doesn't state that.
So saying the narrative would contradict the calc makes no sense.
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