Isshiki Rod to Reactions Blitzing

[Arkenis]

the start of One Piece and Naruto calc war?

 

[KingTempest]

the start of One Piece and Naruto calc war?

The continuation of Naruto deleting every method to calculate anything tied into manga because their logic doesn't follow other verses' logic but because they have a tiny similarity, it's all or nothing*

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, that's perception speed, derived from 1m divided by SoL (in m/s).

Perception speed is the time it takes for a character to notice an event from the time it happens.

Does this knowledge change your view on whether there's a calc hidden in here or not? Like, using that timeframe is saying that Luffy's/Thunder's brain notices light after it moves 1 meter.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah, that's perception speed, derived from 1m divided by SoL (in m/s).

Perception speed is the time it takes for a character to notice an event from the time it happens.

Does this knowledge change your view on whether there's a calc hidden in here or not? Like, using that timeframe is saying that Luffy's/Thunder's brain notices light after it moves 1 meter.

Not really, the fact that he just calls it slow is something that carries the SOL perception in my opinion. I don't think distance has a factor in that, especially when more distance was covered with Kaidou's feat

 

[Arkenis]

 

[Fikriskps]

This clearly stacking. Sasuke Get FTL via Comparable To Naruto, And Naruto Himself Get FTL Via The Calculation That He Dodge Madara Light Fang


In Other Word

You Cant Use Statement "The Rod Is faster than Sasuke Sharingan/Rinegan Perception" to Get The Rod Speed And Using Lowball with SoL .because the way How They have FTL Speed Is From A Calculation.

 

[WanderingGecko]

Zamn. From a Naruto calculation thread to a One Piece one.

 

[Fikriskps]

Yeah

 

[Severated]

Stacking Or No?

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think the comparison is quite as direct as what is being claimed here, between Kaidou's speed and speed of the laser.

Luffy doesn't explicitely say that the laser is what is too slow. He could have been commenting that the Pacifista itself was what was too slow. The Pacifista has to charge up its laser at least a little bit as we see on the preceding panel meaning that there could be some aim-dodging at work here and then Luffy goes on to blitz the Pacifista with a Gear 2 attack (which support the interpretation that the Pacifista was too slow to keep up with him).

I also don't think the comparison works when looking at the difference in the nature of the attacks. The Pacifista's laser is a narrow beam and Luffy only has to tilt his head slightly to the side to avod it; a Thunder Bagua from Kaidou is huge however. It requires a lot more movement on Luffy's part to get out of the way so it wouldn't necessarily have to be faster than the laser in order for Luffy to have more difficulty in evading it.

 

[YueNoMoral]

hmm

 

[HADES]

Canonically, Isshiki's Iron is faster than Madara's Light Fang which is said to move at the Speed of Light. Naruto in his Sixpath form can dodge Light Fang easily, but when faced with Isshiki's iron, even Sasuke says that the iron moves too fast for him. So as a minimum condition, we will use SoL for the iron speed. This case is used like Kaidou's Thunder Bagua calc.

 

[HADES]

This clearly stacking. Sasuke Get FTL via Comparable To Naruto, And Naruto Himself Get FTL Via The Calculation That He Dodge Madara Light Fang


In Other Word

not really, naruto SPSM whose reaction is FTL 2.11c can't react with isshiki sticks, this Speed Of Light is actually low ball, at least isshiki bars are FTL 1.1c, this will be stacking if you think isshiki bars are faster than FTL 2.11c, so bars isshiki at least Speed Of Light to FTL 1.1c.

 

[Testarossa002]

I dropped something in retsuden where Naruto was stated to "naturally" react to/evade photon beams while in base and unable to use chakra ln a related thread
But it was thrown out

 

[Tomboy11]

No, One Piece has direct clear cut statements of said objects being light speed (They verbatim state the attacks they're dodging to be light speed). Isshiki's rods don't have that advantage, period.

Kaido attack was not stated to be light speed just really fast because Luffy called light slow, while In Naruto case in the novels it was stated he could easily react to photons while sick and 0 chakra in base
While six path sasuke considered the rods too fast for him
Six path sasuke>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sick base Naruto

 

[Tomboy11]

Canonically, Isshiki's Iron is faster than Madara's Light Fang which is said to move at the Speed of Light. Naruto in his Sixpath form can dodge Light Fang easily, but when faced with Isshiki's iron, even Sasuke says that the iron moves too fast for him. So as a minimum condition, we will use SoL for the iron speed. This case is used like Kaidou's Thunder Bagua calc.

+ The fact that base Naruto is stated to be able to naturally react to photons while in base and sick
But for some reason it is Weird for us to think isshiki who is like the second fastest is lower than SOL
Nawa ohhh

Don't we even have weak ass like mufina having light speed slashes

 

[HADES]

Kaido attack was not stated to be light speed just really fast because Luffy called light slow, while In Naruto case in the novels it was stated he could easily react to photons while sick and 0 chakra in base
While six path sasuke considered the rods too fast for him
Six path sasuke>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sick base Naru

Kaido attack was not stated to be light speed just really fast because Luffy called light slow, while In Naruto case in the novels it was stated he could easily react to photons while sick and 0 chakra in base
While six path sasuke considered the rods too fast for him
Six path sasuke>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sick base Naruto

with this maybe it can help, only madara thinks sasuke (Shinobi World War Key) is very fast, which is clearly Sasuke adult>Sasuke key Shinobi war, this feat should be enough.

 

[Halkum145]

we're dealing with these because a goddamn databook hasn't been published anyway I usually agree but try making a user blog for it

 

[SnookB]

Luffy doesn't explicitely say that the laser is what is too slow. He could have been commenting that the Pacifista itself was what was too slow. The Pacifista has to charge up its laser at least a little bit as we see on the preceding panel meaning that there could be some aim-dodging at work here and then Luffy goes on to blitz the Pacifista with a Gear 2 attack (which support the interpretation that the Pacifista was too slow to keep up with him).

PX fires in one panel

"he could've called the charge too slow." Respectfully, that's the dumbest take I've heard on that feat. Ever.
It's a direct reference/Callback to Kizaru himself calling Luffy 'too slow' mid motion in gear second during marineford. (Which even then, Luffy managed to perceive his speed, just not physically react like after the timeskip)

If PX took long too charge he'd say something in reference to that like "You took too long" or "predictable". Not look at the laser, and say too slow. His eyes were very clearly on the pacifista in one panel, then on the laser beam in the next. He tracked it the whole way across.
Drop that argument while you're ahead.

Why is One Piece even talked about here? I thought this was a Naruto thread.

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; saying it is an intentional callback / reference to Kizaru's kick is speculative.

Saying things like "If he meant it differently, he would have said something else" is also pure speculation. That is sticking to the perspective that the first interpretation of Luffy's words is the only correct one, and any other interpretation would have required Luffy to say something different.

Also, I didn't say "He called the charge too slow." I was referring to him talking about the Pacifista as a whole.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't know how you can say that his eyes are tracking the laser; by the laser gradually growing smaller, it seems to have gone well past his head in the panel where Luffy calls it too slow.

Why is One Piece even talked about here? I thought this was a Naruto thread.

Because a third of the time I reject a calc I have people pointing to another calc that uses the same method.

 

[SnookB]

@SnookB; saying it is an intentional callback / reference to Kizaru's kick is speculative.

Saying things like "If he meant it differently, he would have said something else" is also pure speculation. That is sticking to the perspective that the first interpretation of Luffy's words is the only correct one, and any other interpretation would have required Luffy to say something different.

Also, I didn't say "He called the charge too slow." I was referring to him talking about the Pacifista as a whole.

Are you seeing him dodge the pacifista or the laser? That interpertation is entirely wrong.

As for this thread (Naruto Topic specifically)- if someone called LS 'slow' and called the rods 'too fast' then it should be treated similiarly. If there's no statement for comparaison then it's stacking.

 

[Damage3245]

Are you seeing him dodge the pacifista or the laser?

Both. The Pacifista is attacking him and the laser is the Pacifista's attack. I just don't think it necessarily as simple as Luffy saying "That laser is too slow to hit me."

 

[SnookB]

Both. The Pacifista is attacking him and the laser is the Pacifista's attack. I just don't think it necessarily as simple as Luffy saying "That laser is too slow to hit me."

It literally is that simple unless you force your own interpertation on it. There's no world where an author wouldn't mean that and go through the mental gymnastics of 'he's saying the charge up is too slow for the laser to hit him' even though that was an issue two years before and no one ever said that.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don't think the comparison is quite as direct as what is being claimed here, between Kaidou's speed and speed of the laser.

Luffy doesn't explicitely say that the laser is what is too slow. He could have been commenting that the Pacifista itself was what was too slow. The Pacifista has to charge up its laser at least a little bit as we see on the preceding panel meaning that there could be some aim-dodging at work here and then Luffy goes on to blitz the Pacifista with a Gear 2 attack (which support the interpretation that the Pacifista was too slow to keep up with him).

I also don't think the comparison works when looking at the difference in the nature of the attacks. The Pacifista's laser is a narrow beam and Luffy only has to tilt his head slightly to the side to avod it; a Thunder Bagua from Kaidou is huge however. It requires a lot more movement on Luffy's part to get out of the way so it wouldn't necessarily have to be faster than the laser in order for Luffy to have more difficulty in evading it.

Nah, I think it’s pretty clear he‘s referring to the laser being too slow and not the Pacifista itself

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't know how you can say that his eyes are tracking the laser; by the laser gradually growing smaller, it seems to have gone well past his head in the panel where Luffy calls it too slow.

Why is One Piece even talked about here? I thought this was a Naruto thread.

Because a third of the time I reject a calc I have people pointing to another calc that uses the same method.

Naruto and One Piece are two different cases here. The Isshiki calc is stacking Naruto's FTL speed calc, but there is no calc to stack in the case of Thunder Bagua, because Thunder Bagua is being directly compared to the laser. Luffy's head tilt dodge was never even calculated

 

[Agnaa]

I think the cases are sufficiently similar.

I've responded to your point about there "not being a calculation" earlier, and you've seen me respond to it, so I won't bother doing so again.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Seeing something as slow is something that can be calced. Blitzing someone is something that can be calced. You are ignoring/lowballing those calcs.

"Coulda woulda shoulda"

The reason it's not calced is quite literally because that would be calc stacking. And it's why the comparison is being made between Thunder Bagua and the laser, not Thunder Bagua and Luffy. Knocking this down on the basis of "well theoretically it could be calced" is something I find very strange. It's not calced because that would be evident calc stacking.

Both. The Pacifista is attacking him and the laser is the Pacifista's attack. I just don't think it necessarily as simple as Luffy saying "That laser is too slow to hit me."

Kuma attacked him with a laser. The laser is light speed. Pretty simple

 

[Damage3245]

@CloverDragon03 The laser being lightspeed was not the disputed part of that interpretation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Then what was? Because if Luffy dodges the lightspeed attack and says "too slow" to it, that's pretty clear to me

 

[Agnaa]

"Coulda woulda shoulda"

The reason it's not calced is quite literally because that would be calc stacking. And it's why the comparison is being made between Thunder Bagua and the laser, not Thunder Bagua and Luffy. Knocking this down on the basis of "well theoretically it could be calced" is something I find very strange. It's not calced because that would be evident calc stacking.

So you're avoiding doing a calculation so that it's not calc stacking?

We have that described on the Calc Stacking page as a process called "Hiding Calculations".

Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.

We have determined multiple times in the past that this sort of thing can still be calc stacking even if you lowball it to a commonly assumed value or a stated value (KLK, Mash, those are just the two main ones I personally participated in).

Then what was? Because if Luffy dodges the lightspeed attack and says "too slow" to it, that's pretty clear to me

You can (aim)dodge something and say that it's too slow to hit you while still being slower than it (albeit not by too much). That happens a fair bit in fiction actually.

 

[Damage3245]

Then what was? Because if Luffy dodges the lightspeed attack and says "too slow" to it, that's pretty clear to me

And that's a fine interpretation; not knocking that. I'm just saying that is not the sole interpretation. A character saying "The laser was too slow to hit me"; that's even clearer and less suspectible to other interpretations.

But this topic doesn't look like it is going anywhere. I'm not looking to change your mind on this; I just think it's not as simple as what is being presented.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

"Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used."

Dude, there is no other calculation being used... Also how on earth is avoiding calc stacking also calc stacking? We're avoiding calc stacking because we know we can't calc stack... You can't call avoiding calc stacking "calc stacking", that makes no sense

 

[CloverDragon03]

So you're avoiding doing a calculation so that it's not calc stacking?

We have that described on the Calc Stacking page as a process called "Hiding Calculations".

That's just an incorrect usage of that term. Hiding a calculation is when you still perform the calculation, but it's all essentially in the background and you don't show the process of doing it to make it look like there's no calculation being done.

That's not the same as just straight up not doing a calculation at all

 

[Damage3245]

Dude, there is no other calculation being used... Also how on earth is avoiding calc stacking also calc stacking? We're avoiding calc stacking because we know we can't calc stack... You can't call avoiding calc stacking "calc stacking", that makes no sense

I think Agnaa is saying that the 0.000000003336 seconds value is being used in the calculation as substitute for Luffy's actual reaction speed which could be calced via the laser-dodging feat.

That's the "hiding the calculation" part. The 0.000000003336 seconds value comes out of nowhere; a feat is used to justify that timefrane, but instead of calculating that feat you're just using that value instead.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think Agnaa is saying that the 0.000000003336 seconds value is being used in the calculation as substitute for Luffy's actual reaction speed which could be calced via the laser-dodging feat.

That's the "hiding the calculation" part. The 0.000000003336 seconds value comes out of nowhere; a feat is used to justify that tinefrane, but instead of calculating that feat you're just using that value instead.

We've been down this road before Damage and that's literally what we do for all reaction blitzes...

 

[Damage3245]

We've been down this road before Damage and that's literally what we do for all reaction blitzes...

I'm just explaining where I think Agnaa is coming from with this so we're on the same page.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm just explaining where I think Agnaa is coming from with this so we're on the same page.

I know were he's coming from, I've always known where he's coming from. I just think it's a very flawed stance to have. This isn't calc stacking by any regard. If this was calc stacking, it would mean we can't use any calculation that uses 2 equations within itself because it's technically using 2 calculations in order to find a result.

 

[Duedate8898]

I don't agree with that Mitchell because you're using a separate instance unrelated to Thunder Bagua one to get the calc for it. Especially since, following the logic of that calc, Luffy should already have lightspeed reactions all the way back to right after the timeskip. Yet we don't give him that rating, instead we just use a calc of him dodging a laser to give him Relativistic.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Luffy should already have lightspeed reactions all the way back to right after the timeskip. Yet we don't give him that rating, instead we just use a calc of him dodging a laser to give him Relativistic.

That's cause it was done via Kebunshoku Haki and the site decided that Kebunshoku Haki does not scale to regular Reactions. But Luffy's Kenbunshoku Haki reactions are still light speed.