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Isshiki Rod to Reactions Blitzing

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ihsan

ihsan

10
3
— Source: ()
— Naruto Height Benchmark (180 cm): (https://gyazo.com/0161a1f5a91b2807ad72468cbee1a1ac)
— Minimum Light Reaction Benchmark (faster than an exhausted Sasuke, whose sharinggan can see and react to Naruto's FTL Six-Path): (https://gyazo.com/5d664dc5d88b6089b7c5b1f40e24830f)


A. Pixel Scaling Naruto.


B. First Feats Evaluation:
Iron to Naruto Pixel Scaling Distance: (https://gyazo.com/53e9b21e03368e95797d4993131f474e)
  • Red Line: Naruto Head Size = 255 px = 25.7 cm
  • Blue Line: Isshiki Iron Tip Thickness = 47 px = 4.7368627450980 cm (the picture has flaws, but the exact number is not just 4.7)
  • Green Line: Naruto's Eyeball = 18 px = 1.81 cm
  • Purple Line: Panel Height = 415 px


Angsize Iron to Naruto Distance:
  • Naruto's Eyeball Angsize: 1.81 × 415/18 × 2tan(35°) = 29.7987 cm (from PoV).
  • Isshiki Iron Tip Angsize: 4.7368627450980 × 415/47 × 2tan(35°) = 29.8665 cm (from PoV).


Pythagoras for actual Distance:


· Distance Naruto moves to dodge:
- While dodging the iron from Isshiki, Naruto had a simple moment. Namely is to simply avoid by moving the head as far as 80° (80° benchmark: https://gyazo.com/4c576b37f94fabaeabfed88afe650a97), so as much as: 25.7 × 80° = 35.88397 cm.


· Naruto's Reaction Speed when Dodging:
35,88397 × 299,792,458/2,28265 = 4712830950 m/s = 15.72 c


Second Performance Evaluation:
Iron to Naruto Pixel Scaling Distance: (https://gyazo.com/e237724cdccdbc5ff425496e40ca0c5b)
  • Blue Line : Naruto Head = 85 px = 25.7 cm
  • Purple Line: Isshiki Iron Length = 70 px = 21.16 cm
  • Green Line: Panel Height = 415 px

Angsize Iron to Naruto Distance:
  • Naruto's head from PoV: 25.7 × 415/85 × 2tan(35 °) = 89,59949 cm
  • Isshiki Iron Length from PoV: 21.16 × 415/70 × 25s(35°) = 89,57956 cm

· Iron Pythagoras Distance to Naruto:

· Distance Naruto moves:
- It can be seen in the scene above that if Naruto moves his left arm in a 180° direction, the arm's length is 44% of the body, so 44% of 180 cm is 79.2 cm. And Naruto moves by 180° (semi-circle to ward off Isshiki's iron), so he moves by: 79.2 × 180° = 248,81414 cm. At the same time he did this movement 3 times, so Naruto's total moves were 746,44241 cm.

· Naruto's fighting speed when dispelling all of Isshiki's iron:
746,44241 × 299,792,458/126.69872 = 1,766,219,933 m/s = 5.89148 c

D.Results:
  • Naruto's React Speed: 15.72 c = FTL+
  • Naruto's Combat Speed: 5.89148 c = FTL


cr:ammar
 
ihsan said:
— Source: ()
— Naruto Height Benchmark (180 cm): (https://gyazo.com/0161a1f5a91b2807ad72468cbee1a1ac)
— Minimum Light Reaction Benchmark (faster than an exhausted Sasuke, whose sharinggan can see and react to Naruto's FTL Six-Path): (https://gyazo.com/5d664dc5d88b6089b7c5b1f40e24830f)


A. Pixel Scaling Naruto.


B. First Feats Evaluation:
Iron to Naruto Pixel Scaling Distance: (https://gyazo.com/53e9b21e03368e95797d4993131f474e)
  • Red Line: Naruto Head Size = 255 px = 25.7 cm
  • Blue Line: Isshiki Iron Tip Thickness = 47 px = 4.7368627450980 cm (the picture has flaws, but the exact number is not just 4.7)
  • Green Line: Naruto's Eyeball = 18 px = 1.81 cm
  • Purple Line: Panel Height = 415 px


Angsize Iron to Naruto Distance:
  • Naruto's Eyeball Angsize: 1.81 × 415/18 × 2tan(35°) = 29.7987 cm (from PoV).
  • Isshiki Iron Tip Angsize: 4.7368627450980 × 415/47 × 2tan(35°) = 29.8665 cm (from PoV).


Pythagoras for actual Distance:


· Distance Naruto moves to dodge:
- While dodging the iron from Isshiki, Naruto had a simple moment. Namely is to simply avoid by moving the head as far as 80° (80° benchmark: https://gyazo.com/4c576b37f94fabaeabfed88afe650a97), so as much as: 25.7 × 80° = 35.88397 cm.


· Naruto's Reaction Speed when Dodging:
35,88397 × 299,792,458/2,28265 = 4712830950 m/s = 15.72 c


Second Performance Evaluation:
Iron to Naruto Pixel Scaling Distance: (https://gyazo.com/e237724cdccdbc5ff425496e40ca0c5b)
  • Blue Line : Naruto Head = 85 px = 25.7 cm
  • Purple Line: Isshiki Iron Length = 70 px = 21.16 cm
  • Green Line: Panel Height = 415 px

Angsize Iron to Naruto Distance:
  • Naruto's head from PoV: 25.7 × 415/85 × 2tan(35 °) = 89,59949 cm
  • Isshiki Iron Length from PoV: 21.16 × 415/70 × 25s(35°) = 89,57956 cm

· Iron Pythagoras Distance to Naruto:

· Distance Naruto moves:
- It can be seen in the scene above that if Naruto moves his left arm in a 180° direction, the arm's length is 44% of the body, so 44% of 180 cm is 79.2 cm. And Naruto moves by 180° (semi-circle to ward off Isshiki's iron), so he moves by: 79.2 × 180° = 248,81414 cm. At the same time he did this movement 3 times, so Naruto's total moves were 746,44241 cm.

· Naruto's fighting speed when dispelling all of Isshiki's iron:
746,44241 × 299,792,458/126.69872 = 1,766,219,933 m/s = 5.89148 c

D.Results:
  • Naruto's React Speed: 15.72 c = FTL+
  • Naruto's Combat Speed: 5.89148 c = FTL


cr:ammar
Click to expand...

This is calc stacking
 
Ren1999 said:
I want to ask, what makes that calc stacking?
Click to expand...
Repeating what Agnaa said here:

Agnaa said:
If the speed wasn't stated for the object itself, it's calc stacking.

We don't do calc stacking because it applies a large multiplier on characters' stats for every single decent feat they perform, gradually getting further and further away from anything actually shown in the text. Even if you think those calcs multiplying on each other is justified in the text, it amplifies errors in our calcs. If pixel-scaling in our calcs is off by 10% that doesn't really matter in one calc, but over 10 calcs stacking on each other it gets huge.
Click to expand...
 
As an addition, the reason I say "If the speed wasn't stated for the object itself, it's calc stacking." is because "They scale to the statement because they dodged it" still requires a calc. If Naruto dodged it from 10m away, and moved 50cm to dodge it, he'd only be 5% SoL, in which case you obviously wouldn't be able to say he scales to the statement.

But here, just because he dodged it from close enough to be FTL, people can try to downplay the calc (only using SoL speeds for Naruto in subsequent calcs), to hide the calc that's being used (with potential arguments such as "how can a calc being used? I'm just using the stated speed, not the calc'd speed").

Not that y'all are doing that or anything. That's just reasoning I've seen for similar discussions before.
 
HADES said:
no really, the black rod isshiki is faster than the light fang, because the black rod managed to hit naruto's SPSM which reacted as fast as FTL (2.11c) for avoiding light fang.
Click to expand...

KLOL506 said:
Repeating what Agnaa said here:
Click to expand...
Isn't the calculation of one piece (8c) also like that? this should also be accepted if the calculation of one Piece which is 8c is accepted.
 
Agnaa said:
As an addition, the reason I say "If the speed wasn't stated for the object itself, it's calc stacking." is because "They scale to the statement because they dodged it" still requires a calc. If Naruto dodged it from 10m away, and moved 50cm to dodge it, he'd only be 5% SoL, in which case you obviously wouldn't be able to say he scales to the statement.

But here, just because he dodged it from close enough to be FTL, people can try to downplay the calc (only using SoL speeds for Naruto in subsequent calcs), to hide the calc that's being used (with potential arguments such as "how can a calc being used? I'm just using the stated speed, not the calc'd speed").

Not that y'all are doing that or anything. That's just reasoning I've seen for similar discussions before.
Click to expand...
Isn't the calculation of one piece (8c) also like that? this should also be accepted if the calculation of one Piece which is 8c is accepted.
 
HADES said:
Isn't the calculation of one piece (8c) also like that? this should also be accepted if the calculation of one Piece which is 8c is accepted.
Click to expand...
No, One Piece has direct clear cut statements of said objects being light speed (They verbatim state the attacks they're dodging to be light speed). Isshiki's rods don't have that advantage, period.
 
I think they're talking about the Kaidou calc for Thunder Bagua that characters scale to. Which has no light involved
 
Duedate8898 said:
I think they're talking about the Kaidou calc for Thunder Bagua that characters scale to. Which has no light involved
Click to expand...
I wasn't talking about the Kaidou calc, but mostly the calcs involving Rayleigh and Kizaru.
 
I understand that, but @HADES was talking about the Thunder Bagua calc, which is accepted and uses lightspeed as a basis for it to work.
 
If that's true, post that calc here, and I'll go reject it and make a thread to remove it.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
No such thing should be necessary, really. It's not as if anything remotely like calc stacking is involved, Thunder Bagua is blatantly FTL
Click to expand...
How do you know that Thunder Bagua is FTL without a calc?
 
Agnaa said:
How do you know that Thunder Bagua is FTL without a calc?
Click to expand...
He was too fast for a Luffy with Kenbunshoku Haki to react to, with that same Luffy easily dodging a laser and calling it slow. Thus, Thunder Bagua is faster than the laser, making it FTL
 
Also, the laser came from Kuma. Kuma's lasers are accepted as light speed (and they function just like Kizaru's, which are also light speed)

Just in case there were doubts on if the laser was actually light speed
 
@CloverDragon03 That's still a calculation. In fact, it's going through two calcs.

You're just downplaying the scaling-calcs to hide it.
Agnaa said:
As an addition, the reason I say "If the speed wasn't stated for the object itself, it's calc stacking." is because "They scale to the statement because they dodged it" still requires a calc. If Naruto dodged it from 10m away, and moved 50cm to dodge it, he'd only be 5% SoL, in which case you obviously wouldn't be able to say he scales to the statement.

But here, just because he dodged it from close enough to be FTL, people can try to downplay the calc (only using SoL speeds for Naruto in subsequent calcs), to hide the calc that's being used (with potential arguments such as "how can a calc being used? I'm just using the stated speed, not the calc'd speed").

Not that y'all are doing that or anything. That's just reasoning I've seen for similar discussions before.
Click to expand...
 
@CloverDragon03 This sort of situation is described as an example of Calc Stacking, under "Hiding Calculations"

Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.
Click to expand...
If dodging a bullet, ranking that as Supersonic, then using that speed in another calc isn't allowed, why would doing the same for light be allowed?
 
Agnaa said:
@CloverDragon03 That's still a calculation. In fact, it's going through two calcs.

You're just downplaying the scaling-calcs to hide it.
Click to expand...
Yeah no, I'm gonna vehemently disagree on that one. Not once is speed actively being calculated, it's just the basic logic of "if Luffy couldn't react to Thunder Bagua when he considered a laser to be slow, then Thunder Bagua is faster than the laser." I really don't see where any form of calculation comes in
 
I made another post above showing how this situation is explicitly an example on our Calc Stacking page.

I already told you were the calculation comes in; it comes in the dodge.
 
Agnaa said:
@CloverDragon03 This sort of situation is described as an example of Calc Stacking, under "Hiding Calculations"


If dodging a bullet, ranking that as Supersonic, then using that speed in another calc isn't allowed, why would doing the same for light be allowed?
Click to expand...
I think you're misunderstanding. Luffy dodging the laser is not being calculated at all. We're just using the fact that he considered it slow, and then being unable to react to Thunder Bagua to say that Thunder Bagua speed > laser speed
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Yeah no, I'm gonna vehemently disagree on that one. Not once is speed actively being calculated, it's just the basic logic of "if Luffy couldn't react to Thunder Bagua when he considered a laser to be slow, then Thunder Bagua is faster than the laser." I really don't see where any form of calculation comes in
Click to expand...
This

Luffy quite frankly looks at a laser and says too slow. Using SOL reactions for calling something SOL slow is warranted, and using that for something else should be valid.

This is the assumption based on calcs to say "it should be FTL based on our calcs for Naruto's speed, but we'll lowball it to SOL", which is not what the One Piece calcs do.

The Thunder Bagua calculations and the attempt for these Isshiki calcs are two completely different things
 
I think you're misunderstanding. Luffy dodging the laser is not being calculated at all. We're just using the fact that he considered it slow, and then being unable to react to Thunder Bagua to say that Thunder Bagua speed > laser speed

I am not misunderstanding. I know what is being done. You are scaling through two characters and still trying to use a stated speed. This is considered "hiding the calculation", because you are not technically performing calculations for the scaling (or you're downplaying the calculations to just the stated speed), which is something that can only be done because the calculations would give a higher result.

Our Calc Stacking page says that doing this is not allowed, and gives an example of a character dodging bullets, and then using their reaction speed as "bullet speed" in a later calc is against the rules. I see no substantive difference between that, what is being done here, and what is being done with OP. Statements and blitzing aren't much better than dodging.

This is the assumption based on calcs to say "it should be FTL based on our calcs for Naruto's speed, but we'll lowball it to SOL", which is not what the One Piece calcs do.

Seeing something as slow is something that can be calced. Blitzing someone is something that can be calced. You are ignoring/lowballing those calcs.

The Thunder Bagua calculations and the attempt for these Isshiki calcs are two completely different things

They are slightly different, but not different enough for calc stacking to not apply.
 
I believe a calc for tennis balls blitzing Mako from KLK was rejected once because it used the premise of Mako being normally swifter than all known bullets and missiles yet those reaction times were never allowed for the tennis balls hurled at her for then to be used for Ryuko's sword slice, there was much heated debate about this and eventually they concluded it to be calc-stacking, so in the end the fastest IRL tennis serve was used instead for Ryuko's tennis ball slice calc. You were there I think.
 
Agnaa said:
Our Calc Stacking page says that doing this is not allowed, and gives an example of a character dodging bullets, and then using their reaction speed as "bullet speed" in a later calc is against the rules. I see no substantive difference between that, what is being done here, and what is being done with OP. Statements and blitzing aren't much better than dodging.
Click to expand...
There is a difference to dodging something and having a reaction speed of "1/object" (which isn't even the case on the page, the page is saying dodging something means you're a lowballed speed rating. Dodging a bullet automatically being supersonic for example) vs calling an object slow and having a specific reaction speed

The calc stacking page mentions a bunch of different speeds, not being able to find a speed and assuming a speed, then using that assumed speed to calc someone else's movement

This is someone calling a lightspeed attack slow, then we use the allowed reaction timeframe for a lightspeed reaction, then use it for a different scenario.
KLOL506 said:
I believe a calc for tennis balls blitzing Mako from KLK was rejected once because it used the premise of Mako being normally swifter than all known bullets and missiles yet those reaction times were never allowed for the tennis balls hurled at her for then to be used for Ryuko's sword slice, there was much heated debate about this and eventually they concluded it to be calc-stacking, so in the end the fastest IRL tennis serve was used instead for Ryuko's tennis ball slice calc. You were there I think.
Click to expand...
This is a ridiculously upsetting lowball and it's sad that alternatives weren't found instead of "fastest IRL tennis serve"

We had another thread where we discussed these calcs where they said that you could just use distance moved / speed to find a timeframe. The fastest IRL tennis serve speed is just an attempt to ignore the canon
 
Actually the current calc uses speed of sound cause of bullets, so it's actually in same ballcamp as both the Isshiki and One Piece calcs.
 
This is someone calling a lightspeed attack slow, then we use the allowed reaction timeframe for a lightspeed reaction, then use it for a different scenario.

Yeah, Character A has a lightspeed attack, Character B calls it slow, Character C blitzes Character B. I don't see how you could think that's better than Character B dodging Character A's attack.

We had another thread where we discussed these calcs where they said that you could just use distance moved / speed to find a timeframe. The fastest IRL tennis serve speed is just an attempt to ignore the canon

I can understand how people can see not allowing calc stacking as going against the canon, but the site as a whole disagrees.

Actually the current calc uses speed of sound cause of bullets, so it's actually in same ballcamp as both the Isshiki and One Piece calcs.

It doesn't. Read the Revision portion. It uses the fastest IRL tennis serve. 73.167 m/s is not the speed of sound.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Actually the current calc uses speed of sound cause of bullets, so it's actually in same ballcamp as both the Isshiki and One Piece calcs.
Click to expand...
You might wanna double check, speed of sound was rejected, it's fastest tennis serve being in use now.
 
Agnaa said:
I think you're misunderstanding. Luffy dodging the laser is not being calculated at all. We're just using the fact that he considered it slow, and then being unable to react to Thunder Bagua to say that Thunder Bagua speed > laser speed

I am not misunderstanding. I know what is being done. You are scaling through two characters and still trying to use a stated speed. This is considered "hiding the calculation", because you are not technically performing calculations for the scaling (or you're downplaying the calculations to just the stated speed), which is something that can only be done because the calculations would give a higher result.

Our Calc Stacking page says that doing this is not allowed, and gives an example of a character dodging bullets, and then using their reaction speed as "bullet speed" in a later calc is against the rules. I see no substantive difference between that, what is being done here, and what is being done with OP. Statements and blitzing aren't much better than dodging.

This is the assumption based on calcs to say "it should be FTL based on our calcs for Naruto's speed, but we'll lowball it to SOL", which is not what the One Piece calcs do.

Seeing something as slow is something that can be calced. Blitzing someone is something that can be calced. You are ignoring/lowballing those calcs.

The Thunder Bagua calculations and the attempt for these Isshiki calcs are two completely different things

They are slightly different, but not different enough for calc stacking to not apply.
Click to expand...
•The difference is that luffy reaction speed is stated
Its at minimum Sol, right after this his haki gets stronger and stronger after each battle
Luffy haki reactions:

•sabaody<dressrosa<wci without future sight( the name says what he can do, its extremely superior to normal haki as he has seconds to prepare for each enemy blow)<wano <<rooftop future sight<=Kaidou base thunder bagua

• so luffy at his "weakest" showing of observation haki is stated and confirmed without anti feats to see light as a slow attack and basically useless against him, and after getting even better haki+seeing into the future to prepare for kaidou attack he was unable to fully dodge it and was blitzed
 
Duedate8898 said:
Actually the current calc uses speed of sound cause of bullets, so it's actually in same ballcamp as both the Isshiki and One Piece calcs.
Click to expand...
Naruto calc
"We calced someone as FTL, the calced FTL person got blitzed and we want to calc the speed of what blitzed him"

One Piece calc
"Someone called canon Light Speed slow, and called another person fast, so we'll calc the speed of the other person who was stated to be FTL by the person who called light speed slow"

With all due respect, let's please not say that the Isshiki and Kaidou calcs are in the same ballcamp, cause they're not, they're 2 different logics.

One has no backing on SOL except a calc, the other pretty much has canon SOL reactions, which we're using for a timeframe.
 
KingTempest said:
This is a ridiculously upsetting lowball and it's sad that alternatives weren't found instead of "fastest IRL tennis serve"
Click to expand...
I guess this portion will need a site-wide CRT then, though I doubt it will get accepted.
 
The difference is that luffy reaction speed is stated

And Light Fang's stated to be SoL.

One has no backing on SOL except a calc, the other pretty much has canon SOL reactions, which we're using for a timeframe.

I already responded to this idea.

Seeing something as slow is something that can be calced. Blitzing someone is something that can be calced. You are ignoring/lowballing those calcs.
Click to expand...

Neither you, nor anyone else advocating for that not being calc stacking has engaged with that point.
 
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