Isshiki Rod to Reactions Blitzing

[Makai641001]

Naruto calc
"We calced someone as FTL, the calced FTL person got blitzed and we want to calc the speed of what blitzed him"

One Piece calc
"Someone called canon Light Speed slow, and called another person fast, so we'll calc the speed of the other person who was stated to be FTL by the person who called light speed slow"

With all due respect, let's please not say that the Isshiki and Kaidou calcs are in the same ballcamp, cause they're not, they're 2 different logics.

One has no backing on SOL except a calc, the other pretty much has canon SOL reactions, which we're using for a timeframe.

Isn’t LIGHTFANG considered as SOL ?
Couldn’t We use baseline SOL for Naruto since Sasuke is almost perception blitzed by the rods yet can react to said SOL projectile (Genuinely asking since i’m not a calc member i might ignore a lot of things)

 

[KingTempest]

Isn’t LIGHTFANG considered as SOL ?
Couldn’t We use baseline SOL for Naruto since Sasuke is almost perception blitzed by the rods yet can react to said SOL projectile (Genuinely asking since i’m not a calc member i might ignore a lot of things)

I swear bro

 

[SnookB]

The narrative is showing Luffy dodged a lightspeed. Luffy is stating the light is too slow.

Luffy dodged LS by casually tilting his head out the way after it had been fired, then called it slow.
Luffy threw his entire body out the way to dodge thunder bagua, after seeing potentially seconds into the future, and called it too fast.

Naruto on the other hand dodged light fang by throwing his entirely body out of the way and didn't say "that was slow" or implied it was an easy feat to begin with.

VS calc ignored, they're narratively incomparable. You can't use a character stating something is below his speed and barely putting in effort to move faster than said projectile, then compare it to someone who was in his strongest state at the time, threw his entire body to a tilt to avoid LS and showed no sign of it being a speed that he would otherwise consider 'slow' compared to his reflexes.
It's like diving out of the way to avoid a bullet vs side-stepping and saying said bullet was too slow for the caliber of your reflexes.

 

[CloverDragon03]

No they're not. Again, the only difference between these things is that luffy called one attack slow and the other attack fast. He doesn't even compare the attacks.

They really are, no matter how much or what way you slice it. Stacking Naruto’s calculated speed is very different from using KH Luffy viewing light as slow to determine Thunder Bagua’s speed.

The narrative is showing Luffy dodged a lightspeed. Luffy is stating the light is too slow. It isn't inconistent unless Luffy himself says he dodged at lightspeed and we calc something slower from it. We don't see him seeing light in slow motion or anything like that. Luffy just says, Too slow. The narrative doesn't state that.

So saying the narrative would contradict the calc makes no sense.

On top of viewing light as slow, he casually dodged the laser via an effortless head tilt. Yes, the calc would 100% contradictory. If he made a concentrated effort to dodge and it was slower than the laser, that’d be one thing, but it was effortless.

 

[Damage3245]

On top of viewing light as slow, he casually dodged the laser via an effortless head tilt. Yes, the calc would 100% contradictory. If he made a concentrated effort to dodge and it was slower than the laser, that’d be one thing, but it was effortless.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. Luffy moving such a small amount of distance would actually suggest that his physical speed at that point in time doesn't have to actually be comparable to lightspeed. In fact, Luffy in that key is rated as Relativistic; not lightspeed.

 

[SnookB]

That doesn't make a lot of sense. Luffy moving such a small amount of distance would actually suggest that his physical speed at that point in time doesn't have to actually be comparable to lightspeed. In fact, Luffy in that key is rated as Relativistic; not lightspeed.

In this case he didn't cover a lot of distance because he literally didn't care about wasting his breath on it, nor did he need to. Are you going to dodge roll from a turtle when you can just move a step to the side?

 

[Damage3245]

In this case he didn't cover a lot of distance because he literally didn't care about wasting his breath on it, nor did he need to. Are you going to dodge roll from a turtle when you can just move a step to the side?

I'm just saying the results of the calc wouldn't be contradictory if Luffy's speed value was less than lightspeed. Characters frequently dodge attacks that are faster than them.

 

[KingTempest]

We're not talking about Luffy's speed though. We're talking about his reactions. Idky Luffy's speed was even a factor

 

[SnookB]

Characters frequently dodge attacks that are faster than them.

Yes, and context changes the implications behind dodges.
Naruto had to exert his entire effort to avoid LS. Luffy spared it a head tilt and said 'too slow'. The implication there is clear as crystal 'Light speed is below his reaction speed'

 

[SnookB]

If anything Naruto in this case is far more comparable to pre-ts Luffy, Zoro and Ivankov who dodge/roll and dive to the side entirely to avoid LS.

What this is trying to say is the equivalent of saying: Davy Back fight Luffy dodged photons consistently but couldn't react to Lucci, so let's stack Lucci and everyone else's speeds higher.

 

[Makai641001]

Yes, and context changes the implications behind dodges.
Naruto had to move his entire body to avoid LS. Luffy spared it a head tilt and said 'too slow'. The implication there is clear as crystal 'Light speed is below his reaction speed'

Mhh actually Luffy had lots of distance compared to Naruto and could aim dodge with his haki those are 2 different scenarios and the distance Naruto had to react is imo more proper for LS reactions

I also think his « too slow » shit could be about bragging and purely for « badass character that says « oh I see we are just getting started after getting punched through mountains » purposes »

Yet I heard some databooks are on their way maybe we could get a confirmation

(As I said I might ignore some shit)

So you're avoiding doing a calculation so that it's not calc stacking?

We have that described on the Calc Stacking page as a process called "Hiding Calculations".



We have determined multiple times in the past that this sort of thing can still be calc stacking even if you lowball it to a commonly assumed value or a stated value (KLK, Mash, those are just the two main ones I personally participated in).

Then what was? Because if Luffy dodges the lightspeed attack and says "too slow" to it, that's pretty clear to me

You can (aim)dodge something and say that it's too slow to hit you while still being slower than it (albeit not by too much). That happens a fair bit in fiction actually.

Hi I might need help for something in a few hours/days I will possibly hyu on your personal wall is it possible or do you have too much to think about

 

[SnookB]

I also think his « too slow » shit could be about bragging and purely for « badass character that says « oh I see we are just getting started after getting punched through mountains » purposes »

Luffy never does that unless it's to say "I can't be hurt because I'm rubber". And even then he states it as fact instead of bragging.

Mhh actually Luffy had lots of distance compared to Naruto and could aim dodge with his haki those are 2 different scenarios and the distance Naruto had to react is imo more proper for LS reactions

Anime timeframe says otherwise. Luffy only moved his head when the beams were less than a few feet from his face. I checked a frame cutter just now, and this is how close it is just before the frame where his head is out the way

 

[Makai641001]

Luffy never does that unless it's to say "I can't be hurt because I'm rubber". And even then he states it as fact instead of bragging.

Anime timeframe says otherwise. Luffy only moved his head when the beams were less than a few feet from his face. I checked a frame cutter just now, and this is how close it is just before the frame where his head is out the way

Fair for this frame he had time to read it from the entire distance tho so idrk how to treat this i agree more with Agnaa for now since we don’t have any direct statement

 

[SnookB]

Fair for this frame he had time to read it from the entire distance tho so idrk how to treat this i agree more with Agnaa for now since we don’t have any direct statement

He still didn't have his head out the way ahead of time, so it's not aim dodging. Aim dodging is avoiding the trajectory ahead of time, Luffy waited for it to get there then moved his head.

 

[KingTempest]

Luffy wasn't even looking at it for most of it

Calc Luffy's speed then calc his reactions for moving his head. It'll be over SOL I can guarantee that

 

[Makai641001]

Luffy wasn't even looking at it for most of it

Calc Luffy's speed then calc his reactions for moving his head. It'll be over SOL I can guarantee that

Yeah calcing the feat using the frame he found could be good if not leading to an outlier

 

[SnookB]

Yeah calcing the feat using the frame he found could be good if not leading to an outlier

It's either that, or it's SOL reactions at least.
It can't be any slower because it's written specifically to show LS is 'too slow' for Luffy, so you have a baseline of LS reaction.
Or we use the dodge's calc like suggested above and you get an even bigger bump than the current one. Although I highly doubt it'll be drastically above baseline to the point of it being an outlier.

 

[Nierre]

ughh this just makes this more convoluted

 

[Makai641001]

It's either that, or it's SOL reactions at least.
It can't be any slower because it's written specifically to show LS is 'too slow' for Luffy, so you have a baseline of LS reaction.
Or we use the dodge's calc like suggested above and you get an even bigger bump than the current one. Although I highly doubt it'll be drastically above baseline to the point of it being an outlier.

Stacking the calc’s result isn’t a good idea but it would at least be an upgrade for this iteration of Luffy which is great and make the 8.74 c result more consistant

 

[SnookB]

Stacking the calc’s result isn’t a good idea but it would at least be an upgrade for this iteration of Luffy which is great and make the 8.74 c result more consistant

Not how that works. He'd still have a 'too slow' and 'too fast' gap that'd need calcing. Kaido's TB would likely be an even higher result as well.
This One Piece involvement might unironically upgrade its speed

 

[Duedate8898]

You don't have to calc TB, that's the thing. Especially since, if you do calc it, you still shouldn't be using the LS reaction timeframe. The big issue that the TB calc presents by being accepted and used right now, is that it's basis for being a calc directly contradicts calc rules and, by rejecting this Naruto calc which follows almost the exact same logic, it shows a double-standard.

If TB was just rated at FTL or even anything else without a calc, then it wouldn't even be a topic and I'm sure this calc wouldn't have any standing. But as long as the TB calc exist as it does now, this Naruto calc should also be valid. Unless again, there's another issue with this calc not related to the LS parameters.

 

[SnookB]

there's another issue with this calc not related to the LS parameters.

The issue remains the exact same.
Luffy called LS 'too slow' which makes his reaction speed narratively at least LS, according to his own words.
Naruto didn't. We don't know if dodging light fang is casual, if light fang is 'too slow' for him, or none of that. That means Kaido's TB blitz is against confirmed LS reaction, while Isshiki's rod is just a case of 'fast projectile hits fast character so it scales'.
Again, if this stacks, then Luffy dodging noro beams would have CP9 Soru stack since that's a closer case due to them both being speed feats done without confirmed reaction statements and just later things moving too fast for them.

 

[Agnaa]

Dude, there is no other calculation being used...

If you're saying that their reactions being SoL isn't a calc; statements can be calculated. Feats of blitzing can be calculated. Feats of dodging can be calculated. You're just not calculating it and assuming a value to avoid that, akin to the example given in that page of avoiding calculating a bullet dodge, instead assuming a value, to try to use it in another calc.

You can't call avoiding calc stacking "calc stacking", that makes no sense

If you want to call it something else, I don't care. Regardless, it runs afoul of our rules on calcs.

We've been down this road before Damage and that's literally what we do for all reaction blitzes...

Reaction blitzes should use stated timeframes/speeds for that character in the scene (needs to be done like this as, per our calc stacking page, we consider speed to be able to vary across scenes, even if characters are trying their best). Or should assume a perception that isn't far off human levels.

If y'all have been doing a ton of reaction blitzes assuming, like, Hypersonic, MHS, Rel, MFTL perceptions, then please let me know so I can get those rejected too.

This isn't calc stacking by any regard. If this was calc stacking, it would mean we can't use any calculation that uses 2 equations within itself because it's technically using 2 calculations in order to find a result.

No, because those calculations refer to events in the same scene. The issue we're trying to avoid with calc stacking is taking events from all over the series and stacking them on top of each other.

Like, no, that’s not how it works

It is. I have the actual standards on the page, and precedent of other discussions where this has been pointed out backing me up. My detractors have made the same arguments as you are now every time, yet the majority of contributing calc group members ended up agreeing with me both other times.

We're not talking about Luffy's speed though. We're talking about his reactions. Idky Luffy's speed was even a factor

Because reactions are speed, they have a distance component. Perception speed is the one that's just about noticing/processing things.

Anime timeframe says otherwise. Luffy only moved his head when the beams were less than a few feet from his face. I checked a frame cutter just now, and this is how close it is just before the frame where his head is out the way

That still doesn't seem great for reactions (I'd guess, like, 33-50% SoL), and is even worse for perception (since that's about when the attack is first noticeable, which would've been quite a while ago).

 

[Godernet]

I feel like it’s not worth getting into heated debates over Speed for the God tiers when the Naruto verse’s speed as a whole needs to be revised. Getting Near Light speed Raikage accepted and scaling based on that would be way more beneficial to getting FTL+ Naruto than scaling Isshikis crusty rods

 

[Makai641001]

I feel like it’s not worth getting into heated debates over Speed for the God tiers when the Naruto verse’s speed as a whole needs to be revised. Getting Near Light speed Raikage accepted and scaling based on that would be way more beneficial to getting FTL+ Naruto than scaling Isshikis crusty rods

Raikage’s statement is most likely a simile and seems really hard to believe when looking at the lore’s logic

 

[Godernet]

Raikage’s statement is most likely a simile and seems really hard to believe when looking at the lore’s logic

I personally disagree though I can see where you are coming from. Lore wise there are already many Jutsu by this point that we know are capable of reaching those speeds (light fang, Haku's mirrors, potentially Darui's laser circus, etc) including the Jutsu that literally turns objects into photons and moves them at the speed of light not even a Kekkai Genkai just a regular jutsu used by the cloud to transport things. Also, Light Fang is generally accepted as light speed from the databook, near light speed Raikage shouldn't be treated differently especially since there are no anti feats. I understand that the Narutoverse speed for the most part is ambiguous due to the lack of any substantial speed feats in naruto. there's just this huge unquantifiable gap between lightning-speed teen Kakashi and the high tiers. I don't think it's too far-fetched when these Jutsu do exist and the only times a light-speed jutsu was used in a calcable way was Madara and Muu reacting and moving while Tsunade and Ay were approaching them as photons and Naruto dodging the Light Fang and neither feat was highlighted by the characters to be particularly something impressive. (This isn’t me debating the point btw more so just explaining why I think it’s consistent from a power progression and narrative stance.)

 

[Godernet]

Also interesting point. The Jutsu that transported Tsunade and Ay was initially banned from being used to move humans due to them being unable to survive being flung at those speeds but unlike Tsunade who needed her healing to survive the trip the Raikage was unscathed when they arrived.

 

[Trax]

I personally disagree though I can see where you are coming from. Lore wise there are already many Jutsu by this point that we know are capable of reaching those speeds (light fang, Haku's mirrors, potentially Darui's laser circus, etc) including the Jutsu that literally turns objects into photons and moves them at the speed of light not even a Kekkai Genkai just a regular jutsu used by the cloud to transport things. Also, Light Fang is generally accepted as light speed from the databook, near light speed Raikage shouldn't be treated differently especially since there are no anti feats. I understand that the Narutoverse speed for the most part is ambiguous due to the lack of any substantial speed feats in naruto. there's just this huge unquantifiable gap between lightning-speed teen Kakashi and the high tiers. I don't think it's too far-fetched when these Jutsu do exist and the only times a light-speed jutsu was used in a calcable way was Madara and Muu reacting and moving while Tsunade and Ay were approaching them as photons and Naruto dodging the Light Fang and neither feat was highlighted by the characters to be particularly something impressive. (This isn’t me debating the point btw more so just explaining why I think it’s consistent from a power progression and narrative stance.)

Both light fang and haku ls mirrors were debunked. Being that sasuke after that fight was unable to even keep up with rock lee even with 2T sharingan and I think we can all agree that sasuke was better at reacting. A couple chapters later rock lee faces the sound ninjas, which yes rock lee does blitz them. And then uses that technique I forgot all I remember was that it was a forbidden technique that made you attacks more stronger, and faster but it harms him. The sound ninjas later said if rock lee was fast then they're the speed of sound. If they're using the speed of sound to claim they were as a point for being the fastest its safe to assume their no where near that. Now the light fang feat yes it does at ls but we have 0 indication that madara's neck moves at ls. When naruto dodged it not only was it due to precog but it was during madara turning his neck. I do agree that its possible that darui's laser circus could be ls though. Also they weren't photons when the technique was used. Madara and muu reacted last second when they got attacked by tsunade and raikage. So idk if you would say its ls reaction or rel because debating isn't my strong suit.

 

[Godernet]

Both light fang and haku ls mirrors were debunked. Being that sasuke after that fight was unable to even keep up with rock lee even with 2T sharingan and I think we can all agree that sasuke was better at reacting. A couple chapters later rock lee faces the sound ninjas, which yes rock lee does blitz them. And then uses that technique I forgot all I remember was that it was a forbidden technique that made you attacks more stronger, and faster but it harms him. The sound ninjas later said if rock lee was fast then they're the speed of sound. If they're using the speed of sound to claim they were as a point for being the fastest its safe to assume their no where near that. Now the light fang feat yes it does at ls but we have 0 indication that madara's neck moves at ls. When naruto dodged it not only was it due to precog but it was during madara turning his neck. I do agree that its possible that darui's laser circus could be ls though. Also they weren't photons when the technique was used. Madara and muu reacted last second when they got attacked by tsunade and raikage. So idk if you would say its ls reaction or rel because debating isn't my strong suit.

Hakus ice mirrors were stated to be light speed through travel from mirror to mirror not his movement or combat speed. Not only did Naruto and Sasuke never react to the speed of the mirrors but Zabuza even admits that Haku was holding back. Also it’s still consistent that Haki is significantly faster than either Naruto or Sasuke as when he is trying as he is able to blitz War Arc Kakashi the same way he did in Land of Waves.

 

[Godernet]

Both light fang and haku ls mirrors were debunked. Being that sasuke after that fight was unable to even keep up with rock lee even with 2T sharingan and I think we can all agree that sasuke was better at reacting. A couple chapters later rock lee faces the sound ninjas, which yes rock lee does blitz them. And then uses that technique I forgot all I remember was that it was a forbidden technique that made you attacks more stronger, and faster but it harms him. The sound ninjas later said if rock lee was fast then they're the speed of sound. If they're using the speed of sound to claim they were as a point for being the fastest its safe to assume their no where near that. Now the light fang feat yes it does at ls but we have 0 indication that madara's neck moves at ls. When naruto dodged it not only was it due to precog but it was during madara turning his neck. I do agree that its possible that darui's laser circus could be ls though. Also they weren't photons when the technique was used. Madara and muu reacted last second when they got attacked by tsunade and raikage. So idk if you would say its ls reaction or rel because debating isn't my strong suit.

Also even if you believe it’s only a relativistic feat Madara himself made no comment on Narutos ability to dodge it. Nor did Sasuke or Naruto feel it even fast enough to mention or watch out for. If this jutsu was so fast that it could only be dodged with Precog they(or at least Sasuke) would have made an effort to be wary of it. Madara has more to say about the speed of Night Guy or Sasuke running at him with Chidori than Naruto’s ability to dodge his Light speed jutsu.

 

[Trax]

Hakus ice mirrors were stated to be light speed through travel from mirror to mirror not his movement or combat speed. Not only did Naruto and Sasuke never react to the speed of the mirrors but Zabuza even admits that Haku was holding back. Also it’s still consistent that Haki is significantly faster than either Naruto or Sasuke as when he is trying as he is able to blitz War Arc Kakashi the same way he did in Land of Waves.

"Hakus ice mirrors were stated to be light speed through travel from mirror to mirror not his movement or combat speed. " Thats literally movement speed or normally what you call travel speed. The literal databook was hyperboles it even said no one could react or sense haku while it happens and yet sasuke said other". Zabuza said that haku was too soft to kill. Yes he probably would've held back in strength but there's no indication that he was for speed.

Sasuke reacting to haku. And even haku says that hes able to react to him.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

This is just massive derailment at this point. The OP has been rejected and talks of the method should be brought up in a separate. This thread should also be closed.

 

[Godernet]

"Hakus ice mirrors were stated to be light speed through travel from mirror to mirror not his movement or combat speed. " Thats literally movement speed or normally what you call travel speed. The literal databook was hyperboles it even said no one could react or sense haku while it happens and yet sasuke said other". Zabuza said that haku was too soft to kill. Yes he probably would've held back in strength but there's no indication that he was for speed.

Sasuke reacting to haku. And even haku says that hes able to react to him.

If he was holding back in power I don’t see why he would be in speed as well. Also I’m pretty sure that somewhere in this fight it was stated that Haki was slowing down. Also Sasuke scaling to Hakus full speed would mean he would have better reaction speeds with his 1 tomoe Sharingan than both Land of Waves Kakashi and War Arc Kakashi who both got perception blitzed.

 

[Trax]

Also even if you believe it’s only a relativistic feat Madara himself made no comment on Narutos ability to dodge it. Nor did Sasuke or Naruto feel it even fast enough to mention or watch out for. If this jutsu was so fast that it could only be dodged with Precog they(or at least Sasuke) would have made an effort to be wary of it. Madara has more to say about the speed of Night Guy or Sasuke running at him with Chidori than Naruto’s ability to dodge his Light speed jutsu.

The attack was lightspeed itself but madara wasn't moving at ls. Madara had more to say about night guy not due to his speed but the amount of force he had through his attacks and how powerful they were. But he did say sasuke was really fast and same for night guy that he was also fast. But I don't see why that matters when we're talking about naruto dodging light fang.

 

[Godernet]

The attack was lightspeed itself but madara wasn't moving at ls. Madara had more to say about night guy not due to his speed but the amount of force he had through his attacks and how powerful they were. But he did say sasuke was really fast and same for night guy that he was also fast. But I don't see why that matters when we're talking about naruto dodging light fang.

Because the light fang(a light speed jutsu) was casually dodged and never referenced again by any of the characters involved as if it it were not that big of a deal. Meanwhile other characters and jutsu were given shoutouts for their speed by the same Madara

 

[Trax]

If he was holding back in power I don’t see why he would be in speed as well. Also I’m pretty sure that somewhere in this fight it was stated that Haki was slowing down. Also Sasuke scaling to Hakus full speed would mean he would have better reaction speeds with his 1 tomoe Sharingan than both Land of Waves Kakashi and War Arc Kakashi who both got perception blitzed.

You do understand that saying the 1t has better perception then the 2t and 3t. Because when sasuke was dodging haku he used 2t sharingan which allowed him to see far more better but was good enough like 3t which gave him precog so he could perdict what would happen based on a persons movement, breathing and their actions. I also don't recall it stating haku was slowing down. The thing I remember was that haku was running out of chakra and was still fighting. Then got folded by naruto which then he decides to sacrifice himself for zabuza.

 

[Trax]

Because the light fang(a light speed jutsu) was casually dodged and never referenced again by any of the characters involved as if it it were not that big of a deal. Meanwhile other characters and jutsu were given shoutouts for their speed by the same Madara

But thats because naruto wankers would tend to use the haku statements of him being ls. Even though he was trying to hit critical spots on sasukes body. Lightspeed fang would be a ls jutsu if it was a projectile sure thats fine but we don't know if madara physically can move at lightspeed. The best ls feat we actually get was that ls teleportation thing.

 

[Godernet]

But thats because naruto wankers would tend to use the haku statements of him being ls. Even though he was trying to hit critical spots on sasukes body. Lightspeed fang would be a ls jutsu if it was a projectile sure thats fine but we don't know if madara physically can move at lightspeed. The best ls feat we actually get was that ls teleportation thing.

Well that’s how wankers are. Sasuke scaling at all to Haki contradicts what he does to Kakashi minutes later and again in the war arc. imo Madara, Naruto, and Sasuke being slower than the Light fang would entirely contradict how casual the interaction was for all parties.

 

[Trax]

Well that’s how wankers are. Sasuke scaling at all to Haki contradicts what he does to Kakashi minutes later and again in the war arc. imo Madara, Naruto, and Sasuke being slower than the Light fang would entirely contradict how casual the interaction was for all parties.

All kishimoto had to do was not write haku is ls and the whole "og naruto is ls therefore boruto adult naruto is mftl+" would never exist.

 

[Trax]

Well that’s how wankers are. Sasuke scaling at all to Haki contradicts what he does to Kakashi minutes later and again in the war arc. imo Madara, Naruto, and Sasuke being slower than the Light fang would entirely contradict how casual the interaction was for all parties.

I feel like kishimoto didn't plan for any of this to happen and wrote it as a joke.