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Is this REALLY true?

Akreious

Akreious

5,655
1,142
"Weakness:Goku seeks strong opponents and will therefore allow his opponents to reach their full power for the sake of a good fight."

This has been argued to death but; besides one or two instances out of many, when has he done this in a serious willing to kill scenario? And where the hell does this "Good Fight" scenario come from?

Freeza is the only one if I recall, if barely only due to his good-nature and mercy.

He couldn't really off Vegeta and was repeatedly stomped by him initially, he then tried to off Cell the best he could with what power difference they had, he wanted to leave a Legacy of Future Protectors for Earth once he died against Fat Buu and literally couldn't do anything for Kid Buu/Super Buu.

Is there any instances that I'm forgetting? Because to be extremely honest, in a scenario where Goku is willing to kill, he's literally almost never allowed his enemy to further power-up besides say, Tournament Arcs and such.
 
I agree that weakness is honestly nonsense, he is just merciful at 1st due to his nature. Although he did do it to Golden Freiza but they were both in on it.
 
@Reppuzan

Problems.

1. It was pointed out later that Goku believed Gohan had higher potential than himself or Cell and that only Gohan can defeat Cell as Goku couldn't. Piccolo scolded Goku, saying Gohan isn't the Fight-Lover that Goku is and as such wouldn't be able to draw out that potential Goku saw within Gohan. It was a failure of judgement, not "For the Fairness of the fight". Goku was SURE Gohan was going to win and in order to draw out said power, wanted Gohan to defeat the opponent that Goku couldn't at 100%.

2. Now, I know you guys hate this youtuber... but.... I have to.
 
@Akreious

He also actively tutored Caulifla and Kale during the Tournament of Power to the point that they came within a hairs-breadth of actually beating him.
 
Are you guys even reading my OP?

"he's literally almost never allowed his enemy to further power-up besides say, Tournament Arcs and such."

Also you cannot kill in the ToP, so a "Willing to kill" mindset does not AT ALL apply in that sense. It's a TOURNAMENT. The whole POINT of Tournaments (Well, for any self respecting Martial Artist) is to compete in shows of strength in a non-murdery and in a "Civilized" manner.

And for Cal, well, I don't think there was ever a point where Goku could've actually reliably beat Hit. Everytime Goku gets ahead on Hit, Hit adapts and wrecks Goku.
 
@Akreious

He still did it in a life-or-death scenario where the fate of his entire universe was in the balance. Even if it was a "friendly fight", everyone else was fighting their hardest and trying to win while Goku was goofing off and trying to squeeze a better fight out of it.

Saying that it wasn't life-or-death when failure assured death is fallacious.
 
I also think that Reppuzan makes sense. We should probably close this thread.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Akreious
He still did it in a life-or-death scenario where the fate of his entire universe was in the balance. Even if it was a "friendly fight", everyone else was fighting their hardest and trying to win while Goku was goofing off and trying to squeeze a better fight out of it.

Saying that it wasn't life-or-death when failure assured death is fallacious.
Click to expand...
Err but neither of thos 2 were any actual threat to goku until they fused which goku couldn't have known about at the start. is that really the same thing as with frieza?
 
@Darkmon

And yet he trained them up to the point that they did beat him until he went Ultra Instinct.

What's your point?
 
Everybody being weirdly casual about the TOP when the consequence for failure was ostensibly the entire universe being erased doesn't help your point.
 
@Wokistan

Gohan, Roshi, Piccolo, and the Androids were all fighting to win.

Who are you trying to address?
 
Darkmon. Didn't they berate 17 for shooting someone mid transformation? That whole thing was just really strange in general.
 
That was strange because is pretty much the unspoken rule of Dragon Ball to make everyone look at someone transforming and all that shmuck
 
While this has happened. I disagree that he would do this with everyone he would fight.

He instantly bodied Recome when he was charging, he instantly bodied Nappa when he was about to kill his friends.

I agree that this is a legit weakness as Goku is always looking to improve in a fight and loves fighting but I just wanted people to know that if it's really bad, Goku would go for a quick end. It's just standard DB logic and it's actually don't in several fiction where characters let others transform.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Darkmon
And yet he trained them up to the point that they did beat him until he went Ultra Instinct.

What's your point?
Click to expand...
That there's no plausible way goku could have know they would have fused when there fight started.
 
It's still a character flaw, within the context of fighting, to not just beat your opponent while they're at their weakest and instead train them up and stuff. While Goku did go into it knowing he was way stronger than a lot of the others and was explicitly pacing himself, he knows the power jumps Saiyans are capable of, being an abuser of this himself. They should have been higher priority for a quick elimination, if he was to be a pragmatic fighter.
 
Yes, this is a 100% valid character flaw that would hurt him in a battle.

Frieza: Lets him power up and gives him energy so he can survive.

Cell: Throws him a Sensu Bean to make it an even fight.

Buu: Doesn't kill Fat Buu even though he could so the other characters can get some glory.

Hit: Pretty much every minute of these two.

Bergamo: Despite being told to go all-out by the Grand Priest he decides to risk the universe's existence by feeding Bergamo power.

When does Goku not show this? I can't think of many fights that he takes totally seriously. Maybe Raditz?
 
TO be fair, he did hire Hit himself to have a good fight. Don't think he'd want to just waste his money like that. The others are valid though, and I agree with the general sentiment.
 
I honestly don't understand why Frieza and Cell are being used to justify this

In HIS fight with Cell, he even said that he was giving it his 100% and even blew Cell's torso off with a Kamehameha going for the kill.

With Frieza he wanted to beat him at 100% to satisfy his own sense of revenge, not cuz he wanted a good fight.


So while I agree that this is a weakness it's not as it's prevalent as people make it out to be.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
Yes, this is a 100% valid character flaw that would hurt him in a battle.
Frieza: Lets him power up and gives him energy so he can survive.

Cell: Throws him a Sensu Bean to make it an even fight.

Buu: Doesn't kill Fat Buu even though he could so the other characters can get some glory.

Hit: Pretty much every minute of these two.

Bergamo: Despite being told to go all-out by the Grand Priest he decides to risk the universe's existence by feeding Bergamo power.

When does Goku not show this? I can't think of many fights that he takes totally seriously. Maybe Raditz?
Click to expand...


Freeza: This was a sense of mercy and a chance for Freeza to self-reflect about his wrong-doings; Goku was hoping Freeza would redeem himself even if a little. After Freeza rejected this, Goku promptly blew up Freeza. Nowhere is the reasoning "A good fight".

Cell: Did you seriously ignore my reply to this? Why is this being used to justify this character flaw? It isn't. Goku was confident that Gohan was superior to him, and in order to draw out said potential, Goku needed to get Gohan to push himself. This is why Piccolo scolded Goku later, as Gohan isn't the fight-loving nut that Goku is and wouldn't have the "Drive" to push himself.

Buu: No. What? That's stupid. Goku himself was already, quite literally, DEAD. He won't be on Earth to protect it from any future threats. This is why Goku took the opportunity to train the next Generation; allowing the kids to learn Fusion so that they could do what he won't be there to do. To say that Goku let others do it for a little glory is LITERALLY ignoring ALL context.

Hit: Tournament arc. Sense of respect as fellow warriors and fighters. Literally allied with him in the ToP. Literally couldn't have defeated Hit even if he tried.

Beragmo: Again, ignoring context. Goku fed Bergamo power because he knew that with larger size would come more of a blind spot, which Goku used against Bergamo. Ignoring that and saying "Oh he fed Bergamo power despite being told to go 100%, therefore he wants a good fight" is just... wrong. He exploited an opponent's weakness while preserving his own strength.

In any "Serious" fight, Goku almost always blitzes and offs opponents immediately. Ginyu force/Namek Debut? Nappa? Many Kid Goku instances?

Why is everyone ignoring the OP examples and justifications? Can someone name like... ONE time where Goku held back simply for "A Good Fight"? Cell is literally the only one and that has hidden reasoning for it.
 
Frieza: Regardless of his motivations, this still hurts him in a fight.

Cell: Regardless of his motivations, this still hurts him in a fight.

Buu: Didn't Goku himself say he could have easily solved this problem a lot earlier had he just gone all out when Buu was at his weakest?

Hit: Regardless of his motivations, this still hurts him in a fight. This one's a little more fair though, as Goku hired Hit himself for the express purpose of a fight, and Hit's not someone that Goku could have stomped had he been more pragmatic anyways.

Bergamo: Still an issue if he could avoid that issue entirely by just powering up more, though it does show combat thinking.
 
^

... What?

This thread is discussing whether he'd really hold back in a fight just to have quote "A good fight". Not that he never holds back at all. Saying "Regardless of his motivations" is the equivalent of saying "Character A held back because his parents was gonna die, but lets just ignore the second bit and give him the weakness of always holding back".

Also, no. If we use the Freeza and Cell fights as an example, Goku is "Too Good" or "Merciful". Not "Holds back for a good fight".

"Buu: Didn't Goku himself say he could have easily solved this problem a lot earlier had he just gone all out when Buu was at his weakest?"

This was Goku literally regretting his past decisions. He couldn't have known that Buu had stronger incarnations; At that point, Fat Buu was the strongest Buu there was to him.

"Bergamo: Still an issue if he could avoid that issue entirely by just powering up more, though it does show combat thinking."

Agreed? But again, with stuff like Super Saiyan Blue apparently weakening if you spam it too much and having a larger stamina drain than Super Saiyan God, simply "Powering up more" would've likely been more detrimental in the long-run as he would need to fight Toppo later (At least, I think?).

Also the fight with Bergamo was literally in a demonstration match to show how the matches work and such. Nowhere is it a serious thing
 
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