Is this not enough for total universal destruction? (yes, a DBS question)

[Sus]

I understand if it's time works differently than the normal world, but if it's literally stated that it has no time then how is it a space time?

My point is that the afterlife is stated to have no time, not that the time flow in it is different which means that the afterlife is not a regular "space time continuum".

it's still a low 2C structure, no?

 

[Rez]

I understand if it's time works differently than the normal world, but if it's literally stated that it has no time then how is it a space time?

No the the point is it's a place separated from normal worlds space time making the bog feat low 2-C

 

[ZillertheBucko]

if u know about dimensions then sure, hear me out

1 dot, 0D

1 line, 1D, uncountably infinite dots

okay, the universe is 3D, from it's start to it's end, how many "snapshots" or "moments" there are? uncountably infinite, just simply destroying the universe is 3A, but destroying all the timeline, past, presence and future, is 4D, and requires uncountably infinite more power to do so. hope this is clear

again, I'm not disproving your point, I'm just teaching u the difference between 3D and 4D universes

in simple terms, all universes are 4D, but not all universe busting feats are 4D.

You are acting as though time and space are the exact same thing

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

it's still a low 2C structure, no?

well by itself, technically no.

No the the point is it's a place separated from normal worlds space time making the bog feat low 2-C

OHHHH now I understand. So you're basically saying, since the afterlife has no time and Goku was effecting it from the living world which it and the rest of U7 are actually low 2-C, that means that Goku was effecting a place outside of a low 2-C realm and was gonna destroy which proves that he was effecting the space time continuum. Is that what you mean?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

how is the afterlife a separate timespace if it is timeless

 

[Rez]

OHHHH now I understand. So you're basically saying, since the afterlife has no time and Goku was effecting it from the living world which it and the rest of U7 are actually low 2-C, that means that Goku was effecting a place outside of a low 2-C realm and was gonna destroy which proves that he was effecting the space time continuum. Is that what you mean?

Yes

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well that's actually pretty interesting. I want to see more people's opinions on this.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Well that's actually pretty interesting. I want to see more people's opinions on this.

it seems like facts but I’m not a scientist so idk

 

[My_area]

Destruction of an entire universe, no matter how many times its stated is only 3-A unless we have any indication that its temporal portion is going to be destroyed too. Hence its still a 3-A feat

 

[Orange]

If only the universe is 3-A, thus destroying the universe would be 3-A
But universes are low 2-C, thus destroying Them is a low 2-C feat because you are destroying a low 2-C structure

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Destruction of an entire universe, no matter how many times its stated is only 3-A unless we have any indication that its temporal portion is going to be destroyed too. Hence its still a 3-A feat

I think the wiki itself needs to change
didn’t anybody think it was a bit odd that destroying a literal undeniable 2-C structure isn’t a 2-C feat just because he doesn’t have time hax to go with it
if Goku literally destroyed 1000 universes with half a ki blast in base form heavily suppressed would that still be 3-A because no time destruction?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I think the wiki itself needs to change
didn’t anybody think it was a bit odd that destroying a literal undeniable 2-C structure isn’t a 2-C feat just because he doesn’t have time hax to go with it
if Goku literally destroyed 1000 universes with half a ki blast in base form heavily suppressed would that still be 3-A because no time destruction?

No this is different destroying multiple space times is always 2-C but U7 is low 2-C, that's why zamasu is low 2-C not 2-C. The point here is to bump the BoG feat to low 2-C instead of 3-A.

 

[My_area]

But why is Beerus and Champa feat a tier 2 feat

Because they were going to destory not just 1 but 2 universes. Destroying 2 universes requires destroying the whole space and time continuum of 1 universe before destroying another as 2nd universe is seperated by space and time, so you cannot in essence destroy just 2 universes matter unless they are only spatially seperated which isn't the case with DBS universes.

Another weird way to destroy 2 universes while being 3-A is to have 2-C range but there is no evidence that Beerus and Champa range exceeded their power.

But why isnt Battle of the Gods the same? If desrroying 2 universes = tier 2 by default here, why not 1?

Because destroying space of a universe is differentiated from destroying space and time continuum of the universe here.

This Is due of U7's cosmology, a 3-A destruction happening in the Living World shouldn't be able to destroy the other realms like the Afterlife or the Kaioshin Realm.

But Afterlife and Kaioshin realm isn't taken as Low 2-C here, so a 3-A destruction can destroy them, if it has enough power and range to perform a feat.

if it gets rejected you can just do it again
eventually someone competent is gonna accept it right?

If it happens too many times, discussion rule against this would be made. Brute forcing like that usually doesn't work.

What about the other parallel worlds (Other World, Realm of the Kai's, Demon Realm) that Goku and Beerus' energy eruption was panning to erase?

What about it?

Second, being 4D does not mean time is getting destroyed. 4D refers to spatial dimensions, not time.

I agree with all what you said, just one note. You can have 4D feat by destroying 3 spatial dimension(space) + temporal dimension(time) so thats another but much more common way to qualify for Low 2-C.

In this scan from chapter 476 of z Goku says time doesn't exist in afterlife so is this that enough for 2-C bog since this implies afterlife is an seperate space time and the translations are from hermes the viz translation for this part are shit

The Goku statement is very vague, but let me give you an interpretation of his statement which ties the statement with Afterlife without contradicting anything.

So first of all, Time does exist in Afterlife, this is why characters are able to move there without being frozen, they dont have any statement of resistance to time stop. Even dead humans go in Afterlife and they can move without being frozen so what does that mean? That means that time doesn't apply to dead people as in dead people dont age, so their body is free from effects of time. Which explains why Goku was able to use SSJ3 easily while he was dead(still affected his time limit) but when he came back to live, his body being subjected to time again means SSJ3 started having effect on him.

This interpretation can easily be proven if you take fillers of DBZ(before you say they are not canon to DBS, I will say that similar statement of Goku exists in anime and Afterlife behaves the same in manga and anime so I can use this example okay?), there were humans like Olibu who were dead since huge period of time ago but Olibu still appeared young which shows that dead people dont age so its as if time doesn't pass to them, despite time actually existing.

Another way to show Afterlife have time is the fact that it took 6 months for Goku to reach King kai Planet pre training and 1+ day post King Kai training corresponding to Living World. If Afterlife had no time, the Goku would reach to King Kai planet, train with him and reach back to Earth in 0 seconds due to lack of time so it would correspond to 0 time in Living World but that didn't happen did it?

Conclusion: What Goku was referring by "no time" was how body doesn't age in Afterlife after dying but when temporarily brought back to life, time starts affecting the body in sense of time limit in Living World. Hope this makes sense.

That statement always confused me, it implies time doesn't exist, but time DOES exist in the after life.

Check above explanation, hopefully it solves your confusion too.

OHHHH now I understand. So you're basically saying, since the afterlife has no time and Goku was effecting it from the living world which it and the rest of U7 are actually low 2-C, that means that Goku was effecting a place outside of a low 2-C realm and was gonna destroy which proves that he was effecting the space time continuum. Is that what you mean?

This question would work under premise that Living World is Low 2-C which..isn't accepted here. Anyways affecting places outside of timeline is just atleast Low 2-C unless its literal another space and time continuum

If only the universe is 3-A, thus destroying the universe would be 3-A
But universes are low 2-C, thus destroying Them is a low 2-C feat because you are destroying a low 2-C structure

But it doesn't work like that here, destroying a Low 2-C universe requires evidence that whole space and time continuum of the universe is destroyed.

think the wiki itself needs to change
didn’t anybody think it was a bit odd that destroying a literal undeniable 2-C structure isn’t a 2-C feat just because he doesn’t have time hax to go with it
if Goku literally destroyed 1000 universes with half a ki blast in base form heavily suppressed would that still be 3-A because no time destruction?

Well..Universe 7 is taken as Baseline Low 2-C here. It has to do with AP rather than time hax. That would be 2-B unless those 1000 universe are only spatially seperated then just higher into 3-A.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Because they were going to destory not just 1 but 2 universes. Destroying 2 universes requires destroying the whole space and time continuum of 1 universe before destroying another as 2nd universe is seperated by space and time, so you cannot in essence destroy just 2 universes matter unless they are only spatially seperated which isn't the case with DBS universes.

Another weird way to destroy 2 universes while being 3-A is to have 2-C range but there is no evidence that Beerus and Champa range exceeded their power.

Because destroying space of a universe is differentiated from destroying space and time continuum of the universe here.

But DB already aknowledge their universes to be a Space-Time, and our wiki also accept it like that, destroying something already aknowledged to be a 4-D structure should grant 4-D results

 

[Sus]

You are acting as though time and space are the exact same thing

time is the temporal dimension
space is the spatial dimension

a standard universe contains 3 spatial and 1 temporal axis making it a fully spatiotemporal spacetime continuum

they aren't the same

 

[Sus]

Destruction of an entire universe, no matter how many times its stated is only 3-A unless we have any indication that its temporal portion is going to be destroyed too. Hence its still a 3-A feat

exactly.

 

[My_area]

But DB already aknowledge their universes to be a Space-Time, and our wiki also accept it like that, destroying something already aknowledged to be a 4-D structure should grant 4-D results

That would require evidence that not only space of the universe is going to be destroyed, but the whole temporal portion associated with it will be destroyed too. So destroying Universe 7 wouldn't require destroying all 4 dimensions but just its 3 dimensions while its temporal portion remains intact..well thats how standards work here atleast.

 

[Bernkastelll]

That would require evidence that not only space of the universe is going to be destroyed, but the whole temporal portion associated with it will be destroyed too. So destroying Universe 7 wouldn't require destroying all 4 dimensions but just its 3 dimensions while its temporal portion remains intact..well thats how standards work here atleast.

The whole structure of what is a ''Universe'' in DB already is aknowledged as a Space-Time in the verse, thats why destroying the ''Entire universe'' should be a tier 2 feat

 

[Rez]

Conclusion: What Goku was referring by "no time" was how body doesn't age in Afterlife after dying but when temporarily brought back to life, time starts affecting the body in sense of time limit in Living World. Hope this makes sense.

Check above explanation, hopefully it solves your confusion too.

Ah no Goku had his body even while he was dead so this doesn't apply

 

[My_area]

The whole structure of what is a ''Universe'' in DB already is aknowledged as a Space-Time in the verse, thats why destroying the ''Entire universe'' should be a tier 2 feat

Indeed, but "entire universe" isn't sufficient enough evidence that it includes not only all of its matter but also temporal portion of the universe. Hence "Entire universe" on its own is always 3-A here

 

[My_area]

Ah no Goku had his body even while he was dead so this doesn't apply

But he was by essence still dead even when he had a body, so time didn't affect his body hence he didn't age until the moment he was brought back from Afterlife.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Indeed, but "entire universe" isn't sufficient enough evidence that it includes not only all of its matter but also temporal portion of the universe. Hence "Entire universe" on its own is always 3-A here

The verse already aknowledge the universe as a space-time, thats why I mentioned it

 

[Orioreeem]

Destroying 2 universes requires destroying the whole space and time continuum of 1 universe before destroying another as 2nd universe is seperated by space and time, so you cannot in essence destroy just 2 universes matter unless they are only spatially seperated which isn't the case with DBS universes.

Then why was there a thread that wanted to make multiversal feats 3-A unless time being destroyed is also mentioned?

 

[Sus]

all universes are 4D by default, u just need to proof he was destroying the temporal axis of it

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

This question would work under premise that Living World is Low 2-C which..isn't accepted here. Anyways affecting places outside of timeline is just atleast Low 2-C unless its literal another space and time continuum

Not just the living world but all of u7 is low 2-C, but if Goku was able to effect a place which was seperated from the low 2-C universe 7 because it had no time. Your interpretation of no time is interesting but I think his body aged when he was in the afterlife since his body became 7 years older after the time skip, it would also make no sense since his body got stronger, so would he get stronger withput getting older?

 

[Rez]

But he was by essence still dead even when he had a body, so time didn't affect his body hence he didn't age until the moment he was brought back from Afterlife.

He was dead even in the world of living when he made this statement the only thing baba did for him was allow him to visit earth something he can do on his own but doesn't

 

[My_area]

The verse already aknowledge the universe as a space-time, thats why I mentioned it

Thats not it, the point was that it requires evidence that destroying entire universe includes not just all of its space but all of its time too.

Then why was there a thread that wanted to make multiversal feats 3-A unless time being destroyed is also mentioned?

I am not aware of such threads sorry.

Not just the living world but all of u7 is low 2-C, but if Goku was able to effect a place which was seperated from the low 2-C universe 7 because it had no time. Your interpretation of no time is interesting but I think his body aged when he was in the afterlife since his body became 7 years older after the time skip, it would also make no sense since his body got stronger, so would he get stronger withput getting older?

Yeah but in your question, it seemed like as if it implictly assumed that Living World is Low 2-C. Um but Afterlife is part of Universe 7. Really? I dont know about that, judging from fillers(since they have Goku statement + Afterlife works the same), warriors like Olibu who is human(who is also given a body) seemed to not age despite being dead for 1000s of years if I remember correctly. Pretty sure yeah, since he was training for 7 years but his body didn't age 7 years if that makes sense?

He was dead even in the world of living when he made this statement the only thing baba did for him was allow him to visit earth something he can do on his own but doesn't

He was temporarily revived and no he cant visit Living World on his own without Urani baba helping him. Which is why Elder Kai had to sacrifice himself just so Goku can live again and get back to Living World via IT

 

[Bernkastelll]

Thats not it, the point was that it requires evidence that destroying entire universe includes not just all of its space but all of its time too.

But the verse already aknowledges it as that

 

[Rez]

He was temporarily revived and no he cant visit Living World on his own without Urani baba helping him. Which is why Elder Kai had to sacrifice himself just so Goku can live again and get back to Living World.

No he was not revived

 

[My_area]

No he was not revived

He was which is indicated by halo in his head in Living World, same happened with Vegeta.
Also I dont mean he came back to living so do not misunderstand

 

[Rez]

He was which is indicated by halo in his head, same happened with Vegeta.

So Frieza was revived too?

 

[My_area]

So Frieza was revived too?

Yes for 1 day until Whis literally made him alive.
"Revived" is a poor word choice of mine but what I mean is dead people being allowed in Living World for X period of time

 

[Rez]

And give me the scan saying Goku was revived during his stay on earth in buu saga

 

[My_area]

Dont get fixated on the word "revived", but understand what I am saying based on the context of my argument.
.

 

[Sus]

Then why was there a thread that wanted to make multiversal feats 3-A unless time being destroyed is also mentioned?

that's ridiculous, all universes are assumed to be separate timelines, unless shown that they're physically connected

a multiversal feat can be 3A, but it's 2C by default, because, that's how universes work

 

[ZillertheBucko]

No this is different destroying multiple space times is always 2-C but U7 is low 2-C, that's why zamasu is low 2-C not 2-C. The point here is to bump the BoG feat to low 2-C instead of 3-A.

What’s the difference between 2-C and low 2-C then

 

[Sus]

What’s the difference between 2-C and low 2-C then

low 2C = 1 4D universe
2C = 2-1000 4D universes

read the tiering system page.

 

[MidnightDawn1]

So, just from my experience, this isn't going to work.

With this, I see a few problems: the various realms of the DB verse are not separate dimensions so much as physical locations. A dead person can travel between the realm of the dead and the living should they have the means to, like flight or teleportation. Second, being 4D does not mean time is getting destroyed. 4D refers to spatial dimensions, not time. Time is only a "dimension" in the loosest possible sense. Destroying the universe without destroying time is just a really big "reduce to a void" feat, and not on the same level as destroying the space-time continuum of a universe, which would technically be greater. This is very different, especially in a verse like DB where there are multiple universes. The fight might've destroyed nearly everything in the universe (sans Beerus and maybe Goku), but it would not have destroyed it so much that the number of universes would be reduced by one, with no way to travel to or exist inside the universe. That's the difference between 3-A and 2-C universal destruction.

And yes, the natural argument to follow would be to say that time is meaningless in a giant void. It is, but it's not gone. The background radiation of the universe, the photons created by the explosions, that stuff wouldn't cease to exist, at least for a while. That's why the destruction of time or a timeline is necessary to qualify as a higher tier. The difference is small, but significant.

Now, if this fight showed something like Future Trunks's timeline being affected, then 2-C is back on the table because it's affecting multiple space-times, even if it's within the same universe.


You are fundamentally misunderstanding space-time. Destroying a room destroys nothing but the room. To destroy the room in space-time, you would have to destroy its place in the timeline; for example, if you destroy a room but a time traveler can go back in time and sit in the room before it's destroyed, you have not affected space-time. To destroy the room in spacetime it would have to cease to exist in both the past and future.

Your Username threw me Wayyy off Guard lmao!

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yeah but in your question, it seemed like as if it implictly assumed that Living World is Low 2-C. Um but Afterlife is part of Universe 7. Really? I dont know about that, judging from fillers(since they have Goku statement + Afterlife works the same), warriors like Olibu who is human(who is also given a body) seemed to not age despite being dead for 1000s of years if I remember correctly. Pretty sure yeah, since he was training for 7 years but his body didn't age 7 years if that makes sense?

Afterlife is part of u7 but it has no time so effecting it means effecting more than just the physical universe since you have to leave the space time to interact with a place with no time which means that goku has universal+ range and would make the statements of universe destruction low 2-C. That's filler, goku had aged 7 years after the cell saga up until the buu saga so he did age. And he trained too, he couldn't have trained without aging.

 

[My_area]

What’s the difference between 2-C and low 2-C then

Low 2-C = creating/destroying 1 universe space and time continuum
2-C = Creating/destroying 2 to 1000 universes.

Afterlife is part of u7 but it has no time so effecting it means effecting more than just the physical universe since you have to leave the space time to interact with a place with no time which means that goku has universal+ range and would make the statements of universe destruction low 2-C. That's filler, goku had aged 7 years after the cell saga up until the buu saga so he did age. And he trained too, he couldn't have trained without aging.

That would at best mean that Afterlife portion of universe 7 doesn't have time but its still contained within overall bunch of space and time of universe 7, so affecting timeless by no mean equals to leaving space and time when its still inside space and time of universe 7 so it wouldn't result into universal+ range nor would it make universal destruction as Low 2-C. It is filler, but it has the similar statement of Goku as in the manga and Afterlife operates the same way. I dont see any indication of him aging, what does training have relation with aging? He could train for 7 years without aging 7 years lol.