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Invincible Downgrade
- Thread starter ByAsura
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would it not scale to High 6-A?
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- #603
Idk. The thing is, there's also even bigger craters on the panel.
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Like I've said, I'm not particularly versed with Tech Jacket so I can't really confirm nor deny that. If it is an alternate future Mark from around the Viltrumite War then yeah, someone should change him to High 6-A.
Also would you all be okay if I change Conquest to High 6-A? He did draw blood from Omni-Man and he was considered a threat by him.
Also would you all be okay if I change Conquest to High 6-A? He did draw blood from Omni-Man and he was considered a threat by him.
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- #605
It was shortly before, but still around the time he first fought Conquest. One of them was strong enough to kill Omni-Man, while others became leaders of Viltrum, etc.
Anyway, as I said, the planet-killer feat is a future timeline (meaning we don't know which Invincible to scale), and some of the craters were many times larger.
Anyway, as I said, the planet-killer feat is a future timeline (meaning we don't know which Invincible to scale), and some of the craters were many times larger.
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I support this, I do believe second suit invincible should scale as well given he killed him in both encounters despite being weaker
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No, yeah that armor he fought Thragg with is definitely different. Just saying for some reason the link isn't working for me.
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- #609
Oh, that one. I completely forgot about that battle.
Given that it's probably his main armour for combat, I'd say that's fine.
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She overloaded his armor to 99% capacity by just putting pressure on his head. This is the same Tech Jacket that also needed a hail mary attack to defeat a far weaker version on Invincible.
That was base tech jacket. He didn't get upgraded until after the Viltrumite War where he gets no better scaling or statements.
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Planet killer isn't a future timeline. It occured in an alternate reality where Tech Jacket belonged to a conquering race rather than a peaceful one, and canon wise Tech Jacket's story takes place right after Omni-Man goes rogue.
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I believe that some people are still arguing that certain characters should be scaled to High 6-A. Specifically it was Invincible's second key, Conquest, and Tech Jacket. I already changed Conquest to High 6-A because it made the most sense
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- #614
It also takes place at a comparatively further point in the timeline. All of the characters were older.
It was 90%, but that's not much different. Anyway, a High 6-A would obliterate someone thousands of times lower.
You're really downplaying him here. He fought with two of them, and proceeded to murder both of them with all the power in his suit.
Plus, as I said before, some of these alternate Invincibles did stuff like kill their version of Omni Man and lead the Viltrumite Empire, as well as fight Mark after Chapter 100. This was just before Invincible fought Conquest, as well, so he's very similar in overall strength to the Viltrumite War.
Was this not an upgraded armour? I read Tech Jacket, but it was something like a year ago.
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The feat was a flashback Asura. The Emperor had ruled for years by the time the arc had rolled around. The flashback section occured after the Omni-Man stuff.
I'm not downplaying him, he was losing that fight and won with a last resort technique and afterwards we see that's he's incredibly bruised up.
He doesn't get upgraded until Tech Jacket volume 2 which happened in 2014 iirc.
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Just wondering, what's your opinion on boosting second key invincible to High 6-A but downgraded from his third key. Conquest scales to High 6-A and Mark was at least able to cause him to bleed during their fight. Plus the 6-A feat we use, he basically didn't take any damage from it and flew away fine a couple seconds later.
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Yeah probably fine to merge the keys. We can even keep the nuke feat as a justification considering that he no sells it like you said.
Though we should move the Conquest-Anissa stuff. There's nothing actively saying she's weaker afaik.
Though we should move the Conquest-Anissa stuff. There's nothing actively saying she's weaker afaik.
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Okay, someone apply that since it's still currently locked. All that's left now is whatever Tech Jacket's going to get.
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I'd do it if I wasn't on mobile. I've unlocked his page though, so just combine the keys.
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Got it. I'll tell you when I'm done.
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What would the key be called? I currently have it listed as "Viltrumite War" but there's probably a better descriptor.
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- #624
Even the flashback takes place in the equivalent of the future. They're all a little older.
I said he fought them, not that he matched both of them at once (he 100% harmed both). Even then, as I said before, these same Marks are all demonstrably almost at adult Viltrumite levels of power, which you completely bypassed.
Ok, then.
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Okay so to lay it all out
- When the alternate Tech Jacket tells his story he's mostly clear that the difference between him and the main universe is that the Geldarians are conquers
- In the main universe immediately upon donning the armor the Geldarians are alerted that a non-Geldarian is in possession of their suit. The Geldarians arrive the very next day when this happens
- The whole war arc in Tech Jacket (when they abduct him) is six months from start to finish
- After this we have this statement about Omni-Man, showing that its well after his mission was publicly reveled.
One Mark has this statement and is killed by Nighthawk and a Yo-yo guy off screen. Other Marks are killed by Reanimen, Pitt, Witchblade, Savage Dragon. They canonically vary heavily in power considering we have Mark easily downing one of his versions when he got angry and later on another version of Invincible is considered stronger than Mark.
Not every one of them are High 6-A. The ones Tech Jacket fights don't seem any more powerful than the one Allen casually one shots while referencing how weak they are
Hellbeast
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Your honour my client is simply built different
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- #627
Yes, I know it's an alternate timeline. I'm saying that timeline was comparatively further in the future as they're older. This issue takes place early into his career, but the alternate timeline doesn't, so we can't derive Mark's power level from this.
Firstly, you're just pulling out stuff that'd be anti-feats for even the main universe Mark at the time. These guys were explicitly comparable to Mark, dominated the Earth's superhumans and destroyed entire cities. Most of the guys who killed them were cross-over characters, or used hax and supermoves.
Secondly, literally in this same panel Mark says they're even in strength. The reason that other guy was stronger is because they'd been stranded in a wasteland and fighting for survival, even then the guy in the blue suit from the previous panel managed to beat him to death.
I was directly referring to Conquest, Annissa and Omni-Man in that statement. I thought it was obvious because I did mention them.
Firstly, you're just pulling out stuff that'd be anti-feats for even the main universe Mark at the time. These guys were explicitly comparable to Mark, dominated the Earth's superhumans and destroyed entire cities. Most of the guys who killed them were cross-over characters, or used hax and supermoves.
Secondly, literally in this same panel Mark says they're even in strength. The reason that other guy was stronger is because they'd been stranded in a wasteland and fighting for survival, even then the guy in the blue suit from the previous panel managed to beat him to death.
I was directly referring to Conquest, Annissa and Omni-Man in that statement. I thought it was obvious because I did mention them.
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But they're not older when the feat happened. The Flashback section has them all match the age of their main universe counterparts. They're older later on because its been multiple years after the Omega Tech Jacket. The Emperor has lost all of his muscle mass for example, which would take multiple years to happen rather than two months later.
Main universe Mark had been working out and getting progressively stronger, something he had no idea about until his father told him about their biology. The other versions we don't know about, which is why I scaled them to the bare minimum if nothing else. Since they'd be similar to BoS Mark no matter what happened.
Then one shots him. He says the strength thing because he wants to find out who sent them to attack Earth.
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- #629
They certainly look older in that panel I gave.
The other versions still killed their versions of Omni-Man, ran the Empire and curbstomped Oliver. So we really do have an idea of how strong they are.
By striking him in the ears, which is a weakness. So you're just going to ignore the panel I showed of him beating the stronger one to death? Even then, he could make Mark bleed, showing that he's not too dissimilar to Conquest in strength.
The other versions still killed their versions of Omni-Man, ran the Empire and curbstomped Oliver. So we really do have an idea of how strong they are.
By striking him in the ears, which is a weakness. So you're just going to ignore the panel I showed of him beating the stronger one to death? Even then, he could make Mark bleed, showing that he's not too dissimilar to Conquest in strength.
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Omni-Man is the only legitimate thing you provided there. Running the empire is due to their bloodline and not on strength as the Elites make very clear the Thragg. Stomping a Young Oliver isn't a feat since his type of hybrid literally killed themselves when attack a post-resurrected Mark. Their far weaker than other Viltrumites and Oliver was still young when it happened.
Also note that Oliver lived through that and wasn't brutally killed or damaged like with Conquest or Thragg.
No I'm not, but at the same time that's not the ones Tech Jacket fought and every single other showing from Tech Jacket in this era is him being rolled by Viltrumites without effort and needing things like poisoned weapons to last against them.
If you want to give him an at least rating, sure. I'm completely against him becoming High 6-A when he has nothing supporting it besides scaling with no backing.
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- #631
Thragg was the one running it by strength after he took up the mantle. The others didn't even know mention it until they actually learned of Omni-Man's bloodline. Mohawk Mark actually lead a rebellion against him in this timeline after Omni-Man died.
Oliver was matching up to adult Viltrumites in the VW (even making him bleed), and survived against Conquest around this time. He's provably way stronger than those hybrids, which is likely due to having the blood of Argall.
They're all around a similar age, and provably around the same level of power. Nothing suggests they're thousands of times weaker than each other, especially since they're still around the same level of strength as Reanimen (although that's way more flimsy) and fought each other off in the wasteland. Age is also a factor in Viltrumite strength levels.
He has backing, like harming actual Viltrumites and surviving their blows (albeit barely). You're the one trying to downplay that stuff. In fact, even the crater feat from the planet-killer is actually way higher because there's far larger craters on the panel.
Oliver was matching up to adult Viltrumites in the VW (even making him bleed), and survived against Conquest around this time. He's provably way stronger than those hybrids, which is likely due to having the blood of Argall.
They're all around a similar age, and provably around the same level of power. Nothing suggests they're thousands of times weaker than each other, especially since they're still around the same level of strength as Reanimen (although that's way more flimsy) and fought each other off in the wasteland. Age is also a factor in Viltrumite strength levels.
He has backing, like harming actual Viltrumites and surviving their blows (albeit barely). You're the one trying to downplay that stuff. In fact, even the crater feat from the planet-killer is actually way higher because there's far larger craters on the panel.
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Mohawk Mark mentioned Thragg's rebels and its obvious he's not stronger than Thragg to overthrow him with brute force.
He didn't match anyone. In Invincible #72 he gets backhanded casually by Conquest and struggles to do anything to another Viltrumite without Omni-Man. In Invincible #75 he punches one in the balls to no damage then gets one shot by Thragg.
He's nowhere near even a average adult Vilrumite, let alone an elite who he consistently struggles to do anything against.
"Survived".
This is not a scaling feat. This is Conquest playing with him and torturing him with a violent death.
Their power is based on physical exertion and exorcise, an aspect the main universe Mark never even considered. Their strength will vary based on that aspect.
All but two were killed and Sinister Mark was considered to be the strongest of the bunch. They have differing strength levels, even there.
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- #633
I didn't mean he overthrew him with strength (even though I'd bet he'd have gone up against some rebels), I meant that they probably didn't know about his bloodline here.
Conquest and Thragg both surpass Omni-Man, so that's not an anti-feat. Did you miss the part where I said he makes Omni-Man bleed?
Invincible took similar damage. If he was that much weaker, his skull would have been crushed instantly like weaker Viltrumites.
Again, age is also a factor, and most of these guys live in horrendous universes (especially ones where they would know that exercise is a factor). Once again, you have zero evidence that these two Marks are thousands of times weaker, and most of them are directly shown to be similar in strength.
Over time, and they still fought each other. Once again, Mark was stronger due to fighting in that wasteland. He even surpassed normal Mark, which partially nullifies your point.
Conquest and Thragg both surpass Omni-Man, so that's not an anti-feat. Did you miss the part where I said he makes Omni-Man bleed?
Invincible took similar damage. If he was that much weaker, his skull would have been crushed instantly like weaker Viltrumites.
Again, age is also a factor, and most of these guys live in horrendous universes (especially ones where they would know that exercise is a factor). Once again, you have zero evidence that these two Marks are thousands of times weaker, and most of them are directly shown to be similar in strength.
Over time, and they still fought each other. Once again, Mark was stronger due to fighting in that wasteland. He even surpassed normal Mark, which partially nullifies your point.
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Anissa, Conquest, and the others would have no reason to follow Mohawk Mark if not for his bloodline.
You didn't. You said "Oliver was matching up to adult Viltrumites in the VW (even making him bleed)".
Oliver didn't bloody any Viltrumite during the VW arc.
Conquest was fighting Mark seriously. He wasn't taking Oliver seriously at all, as shown when they fight again and he back hands him away while smiling.
You also have zero evidence that they're as strong as Mark, when we know he can overpower other versions and we see other Invincibles die to physical damage in the same story arc such as both Savage Dragon, Reanimen (that Mark can take rather easily) and Pitt murdering their ones with brute force.
High 6-C fits with what we're given. Tech Jacket is consistently shown to be far beneath a Viltrumite, Just because like Bulletproof and Immortal he doesn't instantly get ragdolled doesn't mean he autoscales to High 6-A with zero backing to it. Batman has staggered 4-Bs before, Captain America staggered Hulk, and bullets can kill Wonder Woman. We accept that things can be inconsistent at times and ignore them for the sake of profiling and I don't see why we wouldn't do it here.
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- #635
Or he lead the rebellion.
I misspoke, sorry. I meant to say "even making Omni-Man bleed". The "him" part was just a hasty revision.
Fair point, but Oliver is still way stronger than the Hybrids. Even the Hybrids themselves vary in strength, as some of the plot-relevant ones could fight some of the stronger Viltrumites.
I'll grant you that they're maybe not on the same level (even then, Mohawk Mark is probably just as strong, but not as skilled, and Mark directly went for his ears), but there's no reason for them to be thousands of times weaker.
Some of the guys who were killed by physical damage were the ones that killed Omni-Man, and even then it was via things like strangulation. Plus, Savage Dragon and Pitt are cross-over characters whom we have little frame of reference for, and most of their battles were teamwork. Both are even defeated off-panel, despite the superhero population greatly outnumbering these Marks.
Those weren't Invincible Reanimen.
Immortal has been effortlessly ripped in half and decapitated by characters on this level (he's even grossly outclassed by one of these Marks alongside the Teen Team), so it's way different from Tech Jacket. That's just examples PIS and don't even line up with what you're preaching in the first sentence, and Tech Jacket actually has multiple feats of harming and surviving blows from these Viltrumites. So it's even more consistent than him fighting these two Mark, if you really want to go there.
I misspoke, sorry. I meant to say "even making Omni-Man bleed". The "him" part was just a hasty revision.
Fair point, but Oliver is still way stronger than the Hybrids. Even the Hybrids themselves vary in strength, as some of the plot-relevant ones could fight some of the stronger Viltrumites.
I'll grant you that they're maybe not on the same level (even then, Mohawk Mark is probably just as strong, but not as skilled, and Mark directly went for his ears), but there's no reason for them to be thousands of times weaker.
Some of the guys who were killed by physical damage were the ones that killed Omni-Man, and even then it was via things like strangulation. Plus, Savage Dragon and Pitt are cross-over characters whom we have little frame of reference for, and most of their battles were teamwork. Both are even defeated off-panel, despite the superhero population greatly outnumbering these Marks.
Those weren't Invincible Reanimen.
Immortal has been effortlessly ripped in half and decapitated by characters on this level (he's even grossly outclassed by one of these Marks alongside the Teen Team), so it's way different from Tech Jacket. That's just examples PIS and don't even line up with what you're preaching in the first sentence, and Tech Jacket actually has multiple feats of harming and surviving blows from these Viltrumites. So it's even more consistent than him fighting these two Mark, if you really want to go there.
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That's not proof that every Mark is of that tier and that the Mark's Tech Jacket fought is that tier.
So? It was normal Reanimen that killed the alternate Mark with Bulletproof's suit. Not Invincible Reanimen.
Tech Jacket got his face easily caved in and his armor instantly reduced to 10% capacity by two Viltrumites barely gunning for him. Against a no name he struggled until he poisoned them as well.
He's far weaker than a High 6-A, he should not scale.
Its examples of inconsistent scaling in comics, something Invincible is not immune to and still struggles with. Battle Beast is a prime example of a character that varies to weird degrees at times in terms of portrayal.
I'm against a High 6-A rating. But at this point if you're not budging its more of a thread decision rather than anything.
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- #637
Except for consistency.
I thought you were saying something else. Anyway, he wasn't killed by Reanimen, Brit and Donald were there. Plus, the normal Reanimen can severely injure Mark.
Edit: Wrong Mark, I thought his costume panels were torn up or something because I hadn't remembered the blue guy. I'll have to try find it.
Firstly, having your skull caved in isn't even comparable to effortlessly getting ripped in two. Secondly, you are overexaggerating the damages to make it seem like you have a point. Sure Zach's face was heavily bruised, but that's because he's a human, and he still gave one of them a very hard time. Third, are you talking about the Anissa fight? That's the only one where his armour was reduced to 90%, and even then she was outright trying to crush him to death. Lastly, where is this whole poisoned fight coming from?
Again, you ignored the second part of that statement. There's no inconsistency, he's harmed and survived blows from somewhat weaker Viltrumites that can still fight the likes of Omni-Man on many occasions. I'll, once again, say that it's typically with his stronger weapons, but my point still stands.
I thought you were saying something else. Anyway, he wasn't killed by Reanimen, Brit and Donald were there. Plus, the normal Reanimen can severely injure Mark.
Edit: Wrong Mark, I thought his costume panels were torn up or something because I hadn't remembered the blue guy. I'll have to try find it.
Firstly, having your skull caved in isn't even comparable to effortlessly getting ripped in two. Secondly, you are overexaggerating the damages to make it seem like you have a point. Sure Zach's face was heavily bruised, but that's because he's a human, and he still gave one of them a very hard time. Third, are you talking about the Anissa fight? That's the only one where his armour was reduced to 90%, and even then she was outright trying to crush him to death. Lastly, where is this whole poisoned fight coming from?
Again, you ignored the second part of that statement. There's no inconsistency, he's harmed and survived blows from somewhat weaker Viltrumites that can still fight the likes of Omni-Man on many occasions. I'll, once again, say that it's typically with his stronger weapons, but my point still stands.
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During Issue #75
I'm not seeing it as consistent outside of him being stomped or overpowered in nearly every occasion where he goes up against one.
But like I said this is a thread decision, since I'm not changing my stance and you aren't either.
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- #639
We don't know if they were actually poisoned. The only other time they mention the plant is in reference to the troopers' incomplete armament, and we don't hear if any of the ones at Viltrum were weakened.
And surviving their blows and making them bleed in the process.
I don't personally get the reluctance. It seemed like everyone was fine with it when Mark was High 6-C+ for this part of the comic, but now that he's High 6-A, the alternates suddenly aren't comparable.
And surviving their blows and making them bleed in the process.
I don't personally get the reluctance. It seemed like everyone was fine with it when Mark was High 6-C+ for this part of the comic, but now that he's High 6-A, the alternates suddenly aren't comparable.
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