Infinite Speed: Voids and Consistency

[Antvasima]

@Dino

Well, as I mentioned, I think that Assaltwaffle makes sense in terms of that we should probably improve our standards to only include characters that can move anywhere instantly or while time literally stands still in regular space, but a compromise of allowing an extra speed statistic for timeless voids might be a good idea.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think it makes sense for someone to have Infinite Speed in a timeless void but suddenly be constricted by time when in a place with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, within fiction there are recurrent inconsistencies regarding this convenience.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I've seen stranger, like characters being omnipresent in a realm.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's fairly common.

 

[TheSandman31]

There's also the Jin e Moks in Lucifer, who while trapped in Creation are nothing impressive but once they stepped into the Gate and The Void, it was stated that they would destroy Creation as a side effect of them leaving and regain their true forms as the formless gods bigger than entire worlds

 

[Agnaa]

Well, within fiction there are recurrent inconsistencies regarding this convenience.

I see no reason to downgrade fictions without that inconsistency just because some have them.

Outliers are a common thing in fiction, but we don't say "Feats are only applicable to the exact material/enemy they were used on in the fiction" just because of those outliers. While a restriction like that WOULD solve the problem of outliers, it would also unnecessarily downgrade things that aren't outliers.

Because of this I don't agree with the "change the guidelines but give characters a special speed for voids" compromise.

 

[Ryandswagger]

What I think we should remember here is that *most* does not equal *all*. Sure most verses don't use the "existing" outside of time thing to indicate a higher level of speed but some verses do. Like we do in any other fictional verse we use the logical explanation first until it's contradicted. If someone destroys a universe in some random verse (X) we automatically think they're universal. We don't need scans to prove that X verse has a universe equal to our size or what theory the verse uses to describe the universe we simply just assume that there reality is our reality until contradicted. Same goes for existing outside of time.

 

[Kepekley23]

I still stand by strongly by what I said.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, another option is that we better clarify the "case-by-case analysis" part to avoid future misunderstandings.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Well, another option is that we better clarify the "case-by-case analysis" part to avoid future misunderstandings.

My only issue with a case by case analysis is that we are forgoing some feats as 'Infinite' and others as 'PIS' or 'Outlier'

Some of which are rightly deserving, others..not so much.

This seems to be a very divisive topic by nature, but I think Assalt makes sense.

Generally speaking, I think we are a little too harsh on the void requirements imo.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So we've gone through all this discussion filled with arguments, evidence providing, etc, yet do we have a solid plan of action?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, there seem to be 3 main options:

1. Let the current regulation remain, but possibly better clarify what case-by-case evaluation means specifically, in terms of avoiding clear contradictions and the like.
2. Only allow infinite speed for characters that can move anywhere instantly or when time literally stands still within a space-time continuum.
3. Use separate statistics for regular space-time continuums and timeless voids.

 

[Kaltias]

Personally I don't see the problem if it's consistent.

As long as it isn't simply void = infinite speed.

It needs to be specified that it's timeless, like the Dark Area in Digimon

 

[Bluetrekking]

So what I am getting from what has been agreed:

• Originating from a void doesn't automatically give someone infinite speed but it still makes a character more likely to be given it.

• The void has to be consistently shown or stated to lack time.

• Direct quotes from characters or the narrator stating they infinite in speed will achieve a character infinite speed more times than not.

 

[KinkiestSins]

1. Only allow infinite speed for characters that can move anywhere instantly or when time literally stands still within a space-time continuum.
2. Use separate statistics for regular space-time continuums and timeless voids.

I am fine with these two tbh.

I lean to the first one, but the second one is something I can concede on.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Let the current regulation remain, but possibly better clarify what case-by-case evaluation means specifically, in terms of avoiding clear contradictions and the like."

This.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree more with the first suggestion honestly.

 

[SchroKatze]

Just do the same as we do woth the Voidborn. Infinite speed in The Void, normal spees on the continuum.

 

[DodoNova2]

Small Question;

if a character exists in a gap between, space and time, the concept of distance and direction does not exist and time does not exist , is it enough for infinite speed if it is not contradicted / outlier?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't see a problem with our current standards, everything is a matter of case-by-case basis and consistency. Fiction rarely aknowledges predating or transcending time as a matter of speed of whatever, this is why 99% of timeless beings that exist in fiction aren't depicted as immutable beings beyond change that cannot be affected by anything due to technically transcending / being unbound by causal progression, the same thing happens with Game Characters coming from verses such as SMT where 3-D humans do battle with higher-dimensional entities who transcend time altogether, yet do not cast endless projections of their existences across all of time with each movement they make or become capable of perceiving all of time simultaneously

I honestly think that downgrading the speeds of these kind of characters because "muh fiction does not depicts them a certain way" is overly strict and is mostly a product of people overthinking things, and this would eventually restrict Infinite and Immeasurable speeds to characters such as cosmic entities that display extremely specific showings of velocity that aren't found in many fictional verses aside from some stories that focus of Hard Sci-Fi or Cosmic Horror. And thinking that an entity unbound by time would suddently become restrained by it when entering a continuum is ridiculous, when they can inhabit a realm where it is nonexistent, while beings from a continuum would most likely stand still and remain completely paralyzed due to lack of causality (Well... Unless the power of PIS interferes, but i think i already exposed my point here)

 

[Drag-O-Drawgon]

One question on this topic. Does Chaos have any infinite speed feats other than the void?

 

[DodoNova2]

it might sound right for me but I'm waiting for more answers to this

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of the staff think?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Ultima, honestly.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So do you have a suggestion for a more easily understood explanation text in the infinite speed description?

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Ant

Apologies for my absence. Anyway, from what I gathered, Ultima seems to make a valid point. We probably should include an addition explaination in what's required for the Infinite speed since very few fiction are extremely specific in this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So I suppose that means alternative #1 then. Does anybody have a suggestion for how we should better clarify the explanation?

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

The current explaination seems fine but we should probably add originating in the void doesn't automatically grants or rejects the speed, rather ve used to support it

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's wait to see what the others think.

 

[JackJoyce]

IRL physics Space-time itself cannot exist without matter. So by existing or spawning in a void it isn't a void anymore. The only reasonable example of infinite speed is

1. If a character can move in frozen-time/if he travels point x to y spending 0 time

2. Escaping the singularity of a black hole

3. If the character can travel from one universe to another using simple flight

Source: https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/a11332.html

 

[Agnaa]

@JackJoyce

1. Would you consider moving after/before a statement of time not flowing/existing in a region as fitting this criteria?

2. Escaping the singularity itself? Simplying by virtue of existing as an above-0th dimensional being your being won't be entirely contained in that singularity, so it would only grant finite speed, unless you can somehow prove that a single point of that being's body was right on the singularity, which you couldn't just assume due to how much of an organism's volume is actually just empty space.

3. I don't quite comprehend what basis in physics this has. This seems to assume that other universes lay on the exact same space-time continuum, and that the spatial difference between them is infinite. I don't really think this is applicable to many verses.

Also that source you linked doesn't seem to comment directly on anything you brought up in your post. It states that "Space-time cannot exist without matter" but that's a different statment from "Matter cannot exist without space-time".

And I was under the impression that it is mathematically not outright stupid to have matter exist without time, it just wouldn't change.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Due to the lack of activity on this thread it seems that everyone is steamed. I believe we should wrap this up, so we can close the thread. Going over most of the inputs on this topic, here's what's seemed to be agreed upon the most:

1. The current rules are fine. Infinite speed are only applied if characters can move anywhere instantly or when time literally stands still within a space-time continuum with a case by case basis to avoid contradictions.

2. Originating from a void doesn't automatically give someone infinite speed but it still makes a character more likely to be given it.The void they originated, however, has to be consistently shown or stated to lack time.

3. As long the WOG has a clear knowledge in the concept, official statements can also be applied.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So does anybody have a suggestion for how we should rewrite our Speed page definition text?

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I believe it's fine the way it is. We just have to include the fact originating from the void or not doesn't automatically makes you or takes away the Infinite rating in speed, respectively. But it can be used to support the rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Here is the current definition text:

"Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see note 4 below.)"

"Note 4:

Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

Does anybody have practical alternatives available? I am too tired to focus properly myself.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

We can add this to Note 4:

"Originating from the void can be used to support the rating. However, it does not automatically makes the character infinite in speed nor does takes away rating if the character does not. Official statements can also be applied as long the description is clear or clarified."

 

[Antvasima]

I am not so sure. Does anybody else have another suggestion?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That addition seems decent.

 

[Antvasima]

This part needs to be clarified/rewritten:

"nor does takes away rating if the character does not"