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SMT and Digimon, for starters.Assaltwaffle said:
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Infinite Speed: Voids and Consistency
- Thread starter Assaltwaffle
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What if there is someone that has absoulte complete control over time? Time is a factor in speed, and i am not talking about some simple time manipulation. I am talking about to control intervals of time. They can slow down time of an affected area around themself, or someone to give them an increased speed boost? I am talking about complete mastery of time. Where with usage of time anything reasonable with it is imagineable?
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I said it before and I say it now: just because someone is capable to exist normally in a "void" wouldn't give it infinite speed, in several series people travel to void and come back with no notable change in speed, not even mentions about that; so in order to warrant the infinite speed from stuff like this, there should be an statement saying that you someone needs such speed to freely move in there, otherwise, its means anything for the speed.
Similar to time-stop, if someone is stated to move while the time is stopped by only shear speee, it would warrant the infinite speed rating, otherwise will only be considered immunity to time-stop. So if I read the OP good, I think I agree with Assault.
Similar to time-stop, if someone is stated to move while the time is stopped by only shear speee, it would warrant the infinite speed rating, otherwise will only be considered immunity to time-stop. So if I read the OP good, I think I agree with Assault.
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Assaltwaffle is right.
And yes, his analogy with "beyond space" being "1-A" does work.
Because guess what - spatial dimensions are still space.
Also nobody has actually made a point against Assalt yet. Every argument here has either been attacking the analogy, which isn't even the core of the argument, or just saying "Well we'd have to change a lot of profiles so hmph it's bad".
And yes, his analogy with "beyond space" being "1-A" does work.
Because guess what - spatial dimensions are still space.
Also nobody has actually made a point against Assalt yet. Every argument here has either been attacking the analogy, which isn't even the core of the argument, or just saying "Well we'd have to change a lot of profiles so hmph it's bad".
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I will reiterate that that's insanely restrictive to the point where literally no one fits the criteria.
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@Antonio
The thing is, if you move in time stop with speed alone, you have Infinite Speed, so your analogy doesn't work either.
The thing is, if you move in time stop with speed alone, you have Infinite Speed, so your analogy doesn't work either.
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Again, that's taking an extremely vague statement and blowing it up to its maximum possible interpretation.LordXcano said:
3-D space is still space, so "beyond space" can just mean being beyond 3-D space.
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That is literally exactly what he said.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Wasn't that what I said? If you move by only speed, you have infinite speed. Wasn't stated by moving by speed alone? Then it will be considered time-stop immunity.
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"Again, that's taking an extremely vague statement and blowing it up to its maximum possible interpretation."
You mean like 99% of "timeless void" statements? The ones where we still see that the void clearly has cause and effect and that time passes in general?
You mean like 99% of "timeless void" statements? The ones where we still see that the void clearly has cause and effect and that time passes in general?
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What if their is a character that Transcends time-space and has shown feats of controlling a factor of speed for other characters, and shown to speed themselves up using time? is that considered Hax and not speed?
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Assaltwaffle's analogy is a giant leap of logic that would only argue that if we gave every character who is beyond time Irrelevant speed. We don't, at most it is Immeasurable Speed for Tier 2 beings who are above space and time.
So his analogy is flawed.
A huge chunk of the rest of his argument is focused on "Fiction doesn't address that", which is the exact sort of fallacious argument that some people use to say stuff like "Well, calcs are wrong because authors don't think of the implications of the feats they give characters".
So his analogy is flawed.
A huge chunk of the rest of his argument is focused on "Fiction doesn't address that", which is the exact sort of fallacious argument that some people use to say stuff like "Well, calcs are wrong because authors don't think of the implications of the feats they give characters".
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People can understand the passage of time inside timeless places, or else there would be no story. It is a necessity that events are portrayed linearly.
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Yes, it happens even for 1-A people in stories such as Kajiri Kamui Kagura, or Vertigo's Lucifer. Even Cthulhu Mythos writes some stuff involving Nodens and Nyarlathotep linearly. That's not really an argument.
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@Ever
Being beyond 3-D space, if that is all the space in the verse, is still beyond all space. Similarly, if you are beyond 5-D space, that is beyond all space. Another dimension that isn't in the verse's cosmology doesn't spawn in because they only "transcend space" yet are 5-D.
I'd you're beyond space, you're beyond space, regardless of what dimension you transcend it at. Imagine a skyscraper with infinite floors. If you leave the skyscraper, you leave the skyscraper. It doesn't matter if you left it at the 3rd, 10th, or higher floor. One is in the building and one isn't.
But, like Xcano said, this isn't even the crux of my argument.
Being beyond 3-D space, if that is all the space in the verse, is still beyond all space. Similarly, if you are beyond 5-D space, that is beyond all space. Another dimension that isn't in the verse's cosmology doesn't spawn in because they only "transcend space" yet are 5-D.
I'd you're beyond space, you're beyond space, regardless of what dimension you transcend it at. Imagine a skyscraper with infinite floors. If you leave the skyscraper, you leave the skyscraper. It doesn't matter if you left it at the 3rd, 10th, or higher floor. One is in the building and one isn't.
But, like Xcano said, this isn't even the crux of my argument.
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I mean, from the quote of yourself you put in the OP, it appears that the crux of your argument is that Infinite Speed isn't considered by the writers so it shouldn't be applied even if a character performs a feat which logically wields Infinite Speed.
Which is odd because you calc. By this same line of reasoning, shouldn't you stop calcing and simply go by statements and authorial intent?
Which is odd because you calc. By this same line of reasoning, shouldn't you stop calcing and simply go by statements and authorial intent?
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@Matthew
It is by a singular frame of logic that they would get infinite speed. It isn't a showing of ability like a calc is. If every other line of logic leads to the conclusion that the character has exhibited no sign of infinite speed outside of a void statement it isn't like blowing up a mountain yielding Island level.
Try not to relate the two. And it isn't just author intent, it is both overarching logical and narrative reason.
Edit: Also I am not going so far as to say that something can't be infinite because it depicts linear progression, but if it does depict linear progress and the passage of time in the void, I would like to see some evidence that it is truly without time (i.e. coming out of a void extremely quickly/instantly after entering despite a large passage of time, saying how no one got older/changed, etc.).
It is by a singular frame of logic that they would get infinite speed. It isn't a showing of ability like a calc is. If every other line of logic leads to the conclusion that the character has exhibited no sign of infinite speed outside of a void statement it isn't like blowing up a mountain yielding Island level.
Try not to relate the two. And it isn't just author intent, it is both overarching logical and narrative reason.
Edit: Also I am not going so far as to say that something can't be infinite because it depicts linear progression, but if it does depict linear progress and the passage of time in the void, I would like to see some evidence that it is truly without time (i.e. coming out of a void extremely quickly/instantly after entering despite a large passage of time, saying how no one got older/changed, etc.).
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"Assaltwaffle's analogy is a giant leap of logic that would only argue that if we gave every character who is beyond time Irrelevant speed. We don't, at most it is Immeasurable Speed for Tier 2 beings who are above space and time.
So his analogy is flawed."
Let's break this down.
> would only argue that if we gave every character who is beyond time Irrelevant speed
How does "We wank this person, but not as much as we could wank this person" detract from his point? You're still implying that we're giving leeway on the interpretation of these kinds of feats, just that we aren't as lenient as we can possibly be.
> at most it is Immeasurable Speed for Tier 2 beings who are above space and time
How does our policy affect the truth of his statement?
He is saying that most fiction doesn't treat this as it should be. That while people may move in "timeless voids", they still only move at "normal speeds" within them and they'll move at the same "normal speeds" when they leave.
Repeating that "we rank them way more than we should, but not as much as we could" doesn't mean his point is wrong. You're arguing a completely different thing.
"A huge chunk of the rest of his argument is focused on "Fiction doesn't address that", which is the exact sort of fallacious argument that some people use to say stuff like "Well, calcs are wrong because authors don't think of the implications of the feats they give characters"."
It's only fallacious when you only think about it one layer deep.
Alright, so most authors don't do calcs, sure.
But most authors do keep things at least roughly visually consistent.
Even though an author may not intend for 8 feats to be supersonic, you can still calc those feats out and prove they are supersonic. The feats are, at least roughly, visually the same. They are the same feats, so they are consistent.
Now this character, who is consistently supersonic, gets 1 timeless void feat. You can still calc the scene, you can see that they are moving at what would be supersonic in this timeless void. They never pull this kind of thing off ever again, and right after they leave they go back to doing their regular supersonic feats.
Now, even ignoring all that stuff about author intent, their feats do not match up with the speed implied by a timeless void. This is true for the vast majority of "infinite speed" characters here. That is why Assalt made this thread.
You can't handwave the many supersonic feats are just being in "slow motion" so we can view it, because that argument also relies on author intent. You are saying that the author intends for the audience to see the action, despite their speed, so they slow it down so it's still perceptible. In order to prove that the author intends for this timeless void to imply infinite speed, you'll have to find supporting evidence that this feat was supposed to be interpreted that way...
Which is where Assalt comes in once more. Backing statements like "they can move as fast as they want" or "they are beyond cause and effect until time gets introduced". Feats that show this level of speed.
DarkLK is the one who suggested this be here in the first place, and he's generally considered the top authority on these kinds of subjects. This line of reasoning isn't new or specific to dimensions either. We have e=mc^2 rules for this reason too. This Wiki and the the reasoning behind feats has always existed.
tl;dr All Assalt is asking for is backing feats, something DarkLK and Ant have already agreed should exist
So his analogy is flawed."
Let's break this down.
> would only argue that if we gave every character who is beyond time Irrelevant speed
How does "We wank this person, but not as much as we could wank this person" detract from his point? You're still implying that we're giving leeway on the interpretation of these kinds of feats, just that we aren't as lenient as we can possibly be.
> at most it is Immeasurable Speed for Tier 2 beings who are above space and time
How does our policy affect the truth of his statement?
He is saying that most fiction doesn't treat this as it should be. That while people may move in "timeless voids", they still only move at "normal speeds" within them and they'll move at the same "normal speeds" when they leave.
Repeating that "we rank them way more than we should, but not as much as we could" doesn't mean his point is wrong. You're arguing a completely different thing.
"A huge chunk of the rest of his argument is focused on "Fiction doesn't address that", which is the exact sort of fallacious argument that some people use to say stuff like "Well, calcs are wrong because authors don't think of the implications of the feats they give characters"."
It's only fallacious when you only think about it one layer deep.
Alright, so most authors don't do calcs, sure.
But most authors do keep things at least roughly visually consistent.
Even though an author may not intend for 8 feats to be supersonic, you can still calc those feats out and prove they are supersonic. The feats are, at least roughly, visually the same. They are the same feats, so they are consistent.
Now this character, who is consistently supersonic, gets 1 timeless void feat. You can still calc the scene, you can see that they are moving at what would be supersonic in this timeless void. They never pull this kind of thing off ever again, and right after they leave they go back to doing their regular supersonic feats.
Now, even ignoring all that stuff about author intent, their feats do not match up with the speed implied by a timeless void. This is true for the vast majority of "infinite speed" characters here. That is why Assalt made this thread.
You can't handwave the many supersonic feats are just being in "slow motion" so we can view it, because that argument also relies on author intent. You are saying that the author intends for the audience to see the action, despite their speed, so they slow it down so it's still perceptible. In order to prove that the author intends for this timeless void to imply infinite speed, you'll have to find supporting evidence that this feat was supposed to be interpreted that way...
Which is where Assalt comes in once more. Backing statements like "they can move as fast as they want" or "they are beyond cause and effect until time gets introduced". Feats that show this level of speed.
DarkLK is the one who suggested this be here in the first place, and he's generally considered the top authority on these kinds of subjects. This line of reasoning isn't new or specific to dimensions either. We have e=mc^2 rules for this reason too. This Wiki and the the reasoning behind feats has always existed.
tl;dr All Assalt is asking for is backing feats, something DarkLK and Ant have already agreed should exist
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I mean, when it is an Outlier it is one thing. You speak in the original post as if we automatically give every character who comes from a void Infinite Speed, but that's not the case. Context matters as always. I'm pretty sure there'd be Kirby characters with Infinite Speed otherwise.
You mention Solaris in the OP, and well, Solaris is a Higher-Dimensional cosmic entities who "eats universes for lunch" and who was going to erase all of space and time, and who is omnipresent throughout past, present and future.
There is a world of difference between giving that Infinite Speed, and giving Infinite Speed to say a Tier 4 alien monster who comes from a parallel dimension where time doesn't exist.
It's also why SMT only the Tier 2 demons have Infinite Speed, even though all demons are unbound by space and time and their world is outside past, present, and future. Pixie and Jack Frost having Immeasurable speed doesn't make sense so they don't get it.
And yes, your logic is exactly that. You are arguing that a story should make explictely clear that a feat should be interpreted in one way and that one result should be derived from it. Which is really counter to basically the entire philosophy of this website, where we are supposed to do the analysis, not the author.
You mention Solaris in the OP, and well, Solaris is a Higher-Dimensional cosmic entities who "eats universes for lunch" and who was going to erase all of space and time, and who is omnipresent throughout past, present and future.
There is a world of difference between giving that Infinite Speed, and giving Infinite Speed to say a Tier 4 alien monster who comes from a parallel dimension where time doesn't exist.
It's also why SMT only the Tier 2 demons have Infinite Speed, even though all demons are unbound by space and time and their world is outside past, present, and future. Pixie and Jack Frost having Immeasurable speed doesn't make sense so they don't get it.
And yes, your logic is exactly that. You are arguing that a story should make explictely clear that a feat should be interpreted in one way and that one result should be derived from it. Which is really counter to basically the entire philosophy of this website, where we are supposed to do the analysis, not the author.
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I agree with Matt, Ever and Kep here.
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So....from what I have gather so far.....it seems nearly everyone agrees about the fact the simply originating from the void doesn't warrant the rating, rather the feats and context that support the fact they can do so at will. Am I missing something?
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@DRB
If only originating from a void isn't OK, then Digimon loses it since the only thing that justifies their rating is the Dark Area natives.
Also I'd be fine with having an infinite rating in that void. We have many characters that have certain tiers or power for being in their home dimension, why not for speed? That way if they are in a timeless void that they are native to, they are still infinite while there, yet not if they don't ever show it outside of the void.
If only originating from a void isn't OK, then Digimon loses it since the only thing that justifies their rating is the Dark Area natives.
Also I'd be fine with having an infinite rating in that void. We have many characters that have certain tiers or power for being in their home dimension, why not for speed? That way if they are in a timeless void that they are native to, they are still infinite while there, yet not if they don't ever show it outside of the void.
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I think the OP is missing things. Because it speaks as if we don't look for feats and context and consistency. Which we do.Dino Ranger Black said:
It's either a misunderstanding or a strawman.
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@Xcano
I do want backing feats, but if nothing else contradicts the infinite rating outside of a linear progression I am still fine with it. It is when previously non-infinite or one-off statements get used for an infinite rating that I have a problem with.
@Matt
So the SMT characters only show infinite feats? If so that's fine.
I do want backing feats, but if nothing else contradicts the infinite rating outside of a linear progression I am still fine with it. It is when previously non-infinite or one-off statements get used for an infinite rating that I have a problem with.
@Matt
So the SMT characters only show infinite feats? If so that's fine.
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If any Digimon lose it, it would be the below Tier 2 Dark Area and Angel Digimon. Tier 2 Digimon have multiple Infinite Speed and Immeasurable feats.Assaltwaffle said:
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However, the Dark Area Digimon are not Infinite for some one off statement of it being a void. Said void has proven itself to be a timeless void in series.
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@Assaltwaffle
The literal definition of gods and powerful demons (Same difference) in SMT is that they are beings who existed outside of past, present and future, and are unbound by physics, among other stuff. They also blatantly violate the laws of causality with their existence. Like, demons are entities that are created through the Observation of humans, but they also always existed (Humans unconsciously created YHVH but YHVH also always existed).
They are the textbook definition of Immeasurable.
The literal definition of gods and powerful demons (Same difference) in SMT is that they are beings who existed outside of past, present and future, and are unbound by physics, among other stuff. They also blatantly violate the laws of causality with their existence. Like, demons are entities that are created through the Observation of humans, but they also always existed (Humans unconsciously created YHVH but YHVH also always existed).
They are the textbook definition of Immeasurable.
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Other issue: If a character has only infinite speed by "existing normally" in a void, and has no statement backing it up, what makes it not qualify as an outlier?
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Define no statement.Antoniofer said:
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@Matthew
Then those guys deserve their rating. I want to make sure there is sufficient consistency in our ratings and we aren't slapping infinite speed onto characters that only one-off it or it contradicts everything they have ever shown otherwise.
Then those guys deserve their rating. I want to make sure there is sufficient consistency in our ratings and we aren't slapping infinite speed onto characters that only one-off it or it contradicts everything they have ever shown otherwise.
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Define a lack of statement and "Only existing normally", because it seems you and others have different intepretations of that.Antoniofer said:
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What of my comments above?Assaltwaffle said:
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Any infinite speed character that isn't consistent in showing said infinite speed.Wokistan said:
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Define consistent showing. Almost no series shows "consistent infinite speed".
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@Dragonmaster
I'd like some citation of it being truly timeless and functioning as timeless. Sorry if this sounds demanding, but this is a significant rating that is literally an infinite amount above all other speed ratings, so I'd like there to be ample proof.
I'd like some citation of it being truly timeless and functioning as timeless. Sorry if this sounds demanding, but this is a significant rating that is literally an infinite amount above all other speed ratings, so I'd like there to be ample proof.
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This.Dragonmasterxyz said:
Otherwise everyone whos rated with Infinite speed would dodge and blitz literally everyone and everything they come across that isnt infinite speed, which is an obvious PIS format for the sake of story and plot.
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