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Would a scan showing time not flowing work? We have that.
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Infinite Speed: Voids and Consistency
- Thread starter Assaltwaffle
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- #82
Consistent showing: The infinite speed has multiple statements/feats and/or functions like infinite speed should, and doesn't contradict more substantial or more consistent showings.Dragonmasterxyz said:
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Enter in the void -> move in the void -> character is upgraded to infinite speed, just as that, with no comment about speed at all, @Dragon. According to Matt outlier are a thing in these cases, but do you define when is an outlier if is literally the "infinite speed feat" that were made?
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Nobody is Infinite speed for just entering a void and moving there.
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@Matthew
But originating from the void seems to cause the confusion and all these arguments. It became one of the factors to recieve an Infinte speed rating at one point, to an absolute requirement all of the sudden (Which will downgrade mutiple characters), and then now it's not enough to warrant the Infinite speed rating. If it's agreed that it's not an absolute requirement, then we can close the thread as well as the other one since it's the main reason we are discussing the rating. As far as I'm concern, the character requested for the downgrade, along with others who are in a similar situation have enough evidence to warrant the fact they they can survive and move in a realm with no time and space. The only argument against them is originating from it.
But originating from the void seems to cause the confusion and all these arguments. It became one of the factors to recieve an Infinte speed rating at one point, to an absolute requirement all of the sudden (Which will downgrade mutiple characters), and then now it's not enough to warrant the Infinite speed rating. If it's agreed that it's not an absolute requirement, then we can close the thread as well as the other one since it's the main reason we are discussing the rating. As far as I'm concern, the character requested for the downgrade, along with others who are in a similar situation have enough evidence to warrant the fact they they can survive and move in a realm with no time and space. The only argument against them is originating from it.
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Assaltwaffle said:
| Born from the Dark Area, which exists in a spatial distortio, it is a wicked Ghost Digimon. | ||
| Time stops, complete darkness and Dark Energy surrounds all of you now! It looks like everyone was somehow transported to the Dark Area. | ||
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@Dino
The way I understand it, originating from a void tends to be a key requirement, and it honestly makes sense. It is much better than the original "Just being in a void once" requirement.
So yeah, it is requirement number 1. Number 2 is obvious, consistency. Further statements in-universe help but they are not required. Just like if a character is stated to be Faster-than-Light in-universe it helps, but it is not the only way for you to get FTL speed rating. Feats & Calcs are the primary way.
If you have a problem with this or that character's speed rating, I believe it is much better and more productive, as well as less inflamatory, to make a thread for that character.
The way I understand it, originating from a void tends to be a key requirement, and it honestly makes sense. It is much better than the original "Just being in a void once" requirement.
So yeah, it is requirement number 1. Number 2 is obvious, consistency. Further statements in-universe help but they are not required. Just like if a character is stated to be Faster-than-Light in-universe it helps, but it is not the only way for you to get FTL speed rating. Feats & Calcs are the primary way.
If you have a problem with this or that character's speed rating, I believe it is much better and more productive, as well as less inflamatory, to make a thread for that character.
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- Thread starter
- #88
@DRB
Super Dimentio should absolutely be downgraded.
Also I think originating from somewhere that lacks time isn't enough. They need more to make it consistent. For example, looking through all the Digimon who are scaled to the 7 Demon Lords, Alphamon is stated to be transcending time. Another infinite speed statement that makes the Dark Area being timeless consistent. Granted, I'd still like scans, but it should be about consistency and evidence.
Super Dimentio should absolutely be downgraded.
Also I think originating from somewhere that lacks time isn't enough. They need more to make it consistent. For example, looking through all the Digimon who are scaled to the 7 Demon Lords, Alphamon is stated to be transcending time. Another infinite speed statement that makes the Dark Area being timeless consistent. Granted, I'd still like scans, but it should be about consistency and evidence.
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It's not we have a thread just for that right now and most everyone agrees. You make it sound in the OP like it is harder than it is.Assaltwaffle said:
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@Matthew
Here's the issue though, there are characters who aren't originate from the timeless void in the first place that recieved the Infinite rating like Death from Discworld, Erazor from Sonic. If it's now absolute, then we have several characters to revise.
Here's the issue though, there are characters who aren't originate from the timeless void in the first place that recieved the Infinite rating like Death from Discworld, Erazor from Sonic. If it's now absolute, then we have several characters to revise.
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It isn't absolute, that's what I said. IMO, virtually no regulations should be absolute. They should be viewed as guidelines, not dogma.
Erazor's literal only feat is erasing an entire reality and reshaping it to his will, and fighting a new form of Sonic that is never seen before or after in a void.
Also, in regards to the Digimon stuff. I mean no offense, but there has been several blogs explaining virtually every iota of the Verse, and at least one thread accompanying each blog too, but it's like nobody reads them.
Erazor's literal only feat is erasing an entire reality and reshaping it to his will, and fighting a new form of Sonic that is never seen before or after in a void.
Also, in regards to the Digimon stuff. I mean no offense, but there has been several blogs explaining virtually every iota of the Verse, and at least one thread accompanying each blog too, but it's like nobody reads them.
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@Matt
I just think that we weren't clear enough about the requirements. Like that thread should have been "Yup not infinite" and done, considering the justification for it isn't good at all. I didn't know there was consistency in the Digimon ratings (although I never called into question SMT, so I never really asked for validation there) since only a single reason is listed on their profiles currently with no citation.
Also the requirement of "live most of your life" should be gone, since that is completely paradoxical, and replaced with "be consistently stated/portrayed as..."
I just think that we weren't clear enough about the requirements. Like that thread should have been "Yup not infinite" and done, considering the justification for it isn't good at all. I didn't know there was consistency in the Digimon ratings (although I never called into question SMT, so I never really asked for validation there) since only a single reason is listed on their profiles currently with no citation.
Also the requirement of "live most of your life" should be gone, since that is completely paradoxical, and replaced with "be consistently stated/portrayed as..."
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| The intersection of its lightning-speed attacks blows the opponent right out of the flow of time! | ||
~ Re-101 |
| This is a world that can go beyond time by moving between layers! | ||
~ [1] |
The Royal Knights constantly travel through the three terminals because of the orders of Yggdrasil to exterminate the Digimon with the X-Antibody.
| This illusory holy knight transcended space-time to save the world! | ||
~ Bx-144 |
| Chapter Twenty: The heroes advance through space-time, putting their lives and the future on the line! | ||
~ Bx-133 |
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@Matthew
But it is the ultimate reason why it exist. If it's not absolute and simply a means for support, then the downgrade shouldn't happen then because that's the only argument against the character since nothing else is held against it. The agreement in the other thread is rather selective with no proper reasoning beyond that which applies to other characters as well and Blue just pointed out it's was never noted in the speed page.
But it is the ultimate reason why it exist. If it's not absolute and simply a means for support, then the downgrade shouldn't happen then because that's the only argument against the character since nothing else is held against it. The agreement in the other thread is rather selective with no proper reasoning beyond that which applies to other characters as well and Blue just pointed out it's was never noted in the speed page.
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Even if time doesn't exist, you can still feel and measure a passage of time.Assaltwaffle said:
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@Dino
In most cases yet, but not all of fiction. Different reasons exist.
In most cases yet, but not all of fiction. Different reasons exist.
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- Thread starter
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Count seconds.
That's the measuring.
That's the measuring.
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- Thread starter
- #100
Seconds don't exist in a place where time doesn't exist. Time can't pass if there is no time.
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Measure a passage of time.
Even if seconds don't exist you can still count them.
Even if seconds don't exist you can still count them.
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- #102
@Dragon
Ty for the scans. Is there a way we can upload them to the Infinite Speed Digimon's pages?
Ty for the scans. Is there a way we can upload them to the Infinite Speed Digimon's pages?
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@Matthew Schroeder
And reasons such being able to restore time, being omnipresent, being able to destroy and traverse time and space with no contradictions, correct? Well, as you can you see, the characters mentioned can do several or all of this despite not originating from the timeless void. So why else show the downgrade should be held beyond pure choice? The downgrade is purely selective and there's no justfication other than a factor that applies to multiple characters with the same rating. If it's a mere guideline and not a requirement, then no one is getting downgraded. If Super Dimentio or anyone else should, a proper reason is required because right now, nobody is providing it.
And reasons such being able to restore time, being omnipresent, being able to destroy and traverse time and space with no contradictions, correct? Well, as you can you see, the characters mentioned can do several or all of this despite not originating from the timeless void. So why else show the downgrade should be held beyond pure choice? The downgrade is purely selective and there's no justfication other than a factor that applies to multiple characters with the same rating. If it's a mere guideline and not a requirement, then no one is getting downgraded. If Super Dimentio or anyone else should, a proper reason is required because right now, nobody is providing it.
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No... you can't. You can't count or do anything that requires time if time doesn't exist.The Everlasting said:
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Well we have all this stuff linked on the verse page as they are all apart of detailed blogs. Everything is on the verse page.Assaltwaffle said:
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If you have any means of thinking you can, though.
But this is pointless semantics.
But this is pointless semantics.
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@Assaltwaffle
This literally happened in Magi. Ugo has a line that goes like "Time doesn't exist in my world. It may have been a few days on your world, but here it might as well have been 100000000000000 years".
I'm paraphrasing but he says that.
This literally happened in Magi. Ugo has a line that goes like "Time doesn't exist in my world. It may have been a few days on your world, but here it might as well have been 100000000000000 years".
I'm paraphrasing but he says that.
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- #108
@Dragon
Ah. Maybe we should like to that section of the verse page? I don't think people should know to go to verse page instead of having feats presented on the profiles (or at least a note saying "see Verse page for more details" or something similar). It is a tad bit confusing trying to find the evidence without knowing not only that there are blogs on the verse page, but also where they are.
Ah. Maybe we should like to that section of the verse page? I don't think people should know to go to verse page instead of having feats presented on the profiles (or at least a note saying "see Verse page for more details" or something similar). It is a tad bit confusing trying to find the evidence without knowing not only that there are blogs on the verse page, but also where they are.
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A lot of confusion also stems from these voids which are described as timeless or spaceless are shown and behave like empty pockets of space, and the characters move through it like they do in their regular spaces.
Very few verses go out of their way to show the physics of that void being different and show the characters are
A. affected by the different laws of the void
B. forced to adopt a new mode of movement (gaining infinite speed or some variant of speed)
C. undergo special changes in order to move in the void (They gain a power or a boost or an item to help them move in the void)
I mean, how many timeless voids show the characters enter the void and then leave the void to see time has passed in the regular world while they were still in that timeless void.
So, I think we should also be asking, is this void being a timeless setting an integral part of the plot or setting in the way that if we ignore that detail contradictions and plot holes will arise or can we actually throw away the detail of this void being timeless and nothing would change or be contradicted in the story.
I agree with Assault Waffle that infinte speed should take exceptional evidence. Extraoridinary claims need extraordinary proof.
Very few verses go out of their way to show the physics of that void being different and show the characters are
A. affected by the different laws of the void
B. forced to adopt a new mode of movement (gaining infinite speed or some variant of speed)
C. undergo special changes in order to move in the void (They gain a power or a boost or an item to help them move in the void)
I mean, how many timeless voids show the characters enter the void and then leave the void to see time has passed in the regular world while they were still in that timeless void.
So, I think we should also be asking, is this void being a timeless setting an integral part of the plot or setting in the way that if we ignore that detail contradictions and plot holes will arise or can we actually throw away the detail of this void being timeless and nothing would change or be contradicted in the story.
I agree with Assault Waffle that infinte speed should take exceptional evidence. Extraoridinary claims need extraordinary proof.
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Well I put an "Important Blogs" section on our verse page just now. That other step is another revision for another time.Assaltwaffle said:
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If any Digimon lose it, it would be the below Tier 2 Dark Area and Angel Digimon. Tier 2 Digimon have multiple Infinite Speed and Immeasurable feats.
^
Just wanted to support this.
^
Just wanted to support this.
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Definitely not. They interact with normal, non-infinites all the time. Kai'sa grew up and aged in the Void.SchroKatze said:
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The point of OP still stand, if a character has infinite speed and its only justification is being born, grew up or live in a timeless void, then the infinite rating should be removed.
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I disagree with your exact suggestion in your OP, I prefer putting more focus on outliers/PIS/inconsistencies which contradict the definition than changing the definition.
"Infinite Speed for existing outside of time, while it may make sense logically, isn't really something that fiction acknowledges. Just because something is able to exist in, live in, or be born into a timeless realm doesn't mean that said timelessness carries over to a realm with time." Fiction doesn't acknowledge it, but fiction doesn't properly acknowledge a lot of things that we take into account. In cases like these, imo we should assume they're true unless it's an outlier/PIS or if it's incosistent. So we should assume that it carries over to a realm with time unless it's inconsistent.
"If other characters that have never shown any inkling of infinite speed can move with and comprehend said characters WITHOUT the character CISing his way into being seen or comprehensible, then that character should NOT be infinite speed if all other logic points to the lack of infinite speed." Yes, but the reason they shouldn't be infinite is because it's inconsistent, not because we need more stringent criteria.
"Narratively, the Beast has a timer on when it will finish the tunnel and arrive in the real world. If the Beast left time to inhabit a timeless realm of its own creation, there should be no timer, however. It would be in the real world instantly." Knowing nothing about the verse, I assume this is why the Beast doesn't have infinite speed. The current guidelines are working fine here.
"Similarly, the World Guardia is capable of interacting with and containing the Beast in the Spirit World, yet has never shown any hint of infinite speed." Then it shouldn't scale due to being inconsistent.
"If the character hasn't shown an indicator of being able to achieve infinite speed outside of a timeless realm, that character shouldn't have infinite speed, imo. This solves the "natural habitat" or "most of their lives" issue and cuts out some beings who really haven't displayed the ability to move at such absurd speeds."" It also cuts out beings such as Monika who have universal reality warping and time manip, but for plot reasons have never really had a reason to demonstrate infinite speed outside of the timeless void.
"For characters who were spawned in a timeless void but then show no sign of retaining such speeds, in either scaling or narrative, they should not have this speed rating." This should already be accounted for by being inconsistent. I think this is needlessly restrictive; I'd rather assume that fiction has feats that logically follow unless it causes a contradiction.
"It has been long enough for us to see that this is too inconsistent to treat as case-by-case in the way we have." I respectfully disagree, case-by-case is very important for something like this. I don't see us getting a much better definition that still trusts the authors.
"Infinite Speed for existing outside of time, while it may make sense logically, isn't really something that fiction acknowledges. Just because something is able to exist in, live in, or be born into a timeless realm doesn't mean that said timelessness carries over to a realm with time." Fiction doesn't acknowledge it, but fiction doesn't properly acknowledge a lot of things that we take into account. In cases like these, imo we should assume they're true unless it's an outlier/PIS or if it's incosistent. So we should assume that it carries over to a realm with time unless it's inconsistent.
"If other characters that have never shown any inkling of infinite speed can move with and comprehend said characters WITHOUT the character CISing his way into being seen or comprehensible, then that character should NOT be infinite speed if all other logic points to the lack of infinite speed." Yes, but the reason they shouldn't be infinite is because it's inconsistent, not because we need more stringent criteria.
"Narratively, the Beast has a timer on when it will finish the tunnel and arrive in the real world. If the Beast left time to inhabit a timeless realm of its own creation, there should be no timer, however. It would be in the real world instantly." Knowing nothing about the verse, I assume this is why the Beast doesn't have infinite speed. The current guidelines are working fine here.
"Similarly, the World Guardia is capable of interacting with and containing the Beast in the Spirit World, yet has never shown any hint of infinite speed." Then it shouldn't scale due to being inconsistent.
"If the character hasn't shown an indicator of being able to achieve infinite speed outside of a timeless realm, that character shouldn't have infinite speed, imo. This solves the "natural habitat" or "most of their lives" issue and cuts out some beings who really haven't displayed the ability to move at such absurd speeds."" It also cuts out beings such as Monika who have universal reality warping and time manip, but for plot reasons have never really had a reason to demonstrate infinite speed outside of the timeless void.
"For characters who were spawned in a timeless void but then show no sign of retaining such speeds, in either scaling or narrative, they should not have this speed rating." This should already be accounted for by being inconsistent. I think this is needlessly restrictive; I'd rather assume that fiction has feats that logically follow unless it causes a contradiction.
"It has been long enough for us to see that this is too inconsistent to treat as case-by-case in the way we have." I respectfully disagree, case-by-case is very important for something like this. I don't see us getting a much better definition that still trusts the authors.
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I am leaning towards agreeing with Assaltwaffle. Our current standards generally contradict what is shown in the fictions themselves.
That said, I do not think that it is usually a good idea to turn this type of thread public, as it risks to turn far too chaotic to get anything done, and the staff are the ones who ultimately decide about changes in our standards anyway.
That said, I do not think that it is usually a good idea to turn this type of thread public, as it risks to turn far too chaotic to get anything done, and the staff are the ones who ultimately decide about changes in our standards anyway.
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Sorry, I still disagree.
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@Ant
But if our currently standards and regulations conflict with one another and the fiction as well, then this thread is necessary because there's so many conflciting rules in how existing in a void to begin with makes the Infinite rating valid or not. I already explained how the feat perfectly goes in hand with the rules and note of the Speed page for SD and yet everyone is still promping for the downgrade since the character doesn't originate from the void in the first, which according to Blue, was told many times that it's a requirement. Now bring up other characters who also don't originate from the void and we have excuses such as time-space restoration, omnipresence, surviving, destorying, and/or traversing accross a timeless void, all which applies the exact character they were downgrading in the first place.
So why still downgrade the character then? To be over and done with and run away from a problem that was already controversial to begin with? We can't have a character(s) bounded to an unofficial revision that equally applies to others who fall into this category. Otherwise, we are just lowering our standards and building a problem that will inevitably catch up to us. Now nearly nobody has a definitive way in determing a legitimate Infinite speed feat. The main issue is wether originating from the void is a requirement and if it's a valid reason for being rated Infinite in speed. If it's no, both threads can be closed since this applies to none of the Tier 2 characters mentioned. If yes, we need to re-evaluate the rules for the tier while adjusting the profiles that applies or not so we don't run into this problem again.
But if our currently standards and regulations conflict with one another and the fiction as well, then this thread is necessary because there's so many conflciting rules in how existing in a void to begin with makes the Infinite rating valid or not. I already explained how the feat perfectly goes in hand with the rules and note of the Speed page for SD and yet everyone is still promping for the downgrade since the character doesn't originate from the void in the first, which according to Blue, was told many times that it's a requirement. Now bring up other characters who also don't originate from the void and we have excuses such as time-space restoration, omnipresence, surviving, destorying, and/or traversing accross a timeless void, all which applies the exact character they were downgrading in the first place.
So why still downgrade the character then? To be over and done with and run away from a problem that was already controversial to begin with? We can't have a character(s) bounded to an unofficial revision that equally applies to others who fall into this category. Otherwise, we are just lowering our standards and building a problem that will inevitably catch up to us. Now nearly nobody has a definitive way in determing a legitimate Infinite speed feat. The main issue is wether originating from the void is a requirement and if it's a valid reason for being rated Infinite in speed. If it's no, both threads can be closed since this applies to none of the Tier 2 characters mentioned. If yes, we need to re-evaluate the rules for the tier while adjusting the profiles that applies or not so we don't run into this problem again.
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Some paragraphs pls?
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