Infinite Speed Saint seiya Upgrade

[Hasty12345]

Bro your debunk was “Okada didn’t draw an infinite amount of fists” whilst quite the funny meme, not an actual argument.

 

[StekFence]

The 9th sense does not exist in several of the series you are naming at the beginning of the topic.

It’s existence isn’t really relevant. What’s important is that gods and those with the stats of gods have this speed.
The 9th sense is simply another way to obtain this level. I only mentioned that shura was wielding the 9th sense as context for why he Should be scaling to god tiers. It would have been the same if he had a god cloth, or anything like that.

for example Hyoga's temperature does not become infinitely colder than absolute zero, even when he acquired infinite cosmos with the God Cloth.

matter manipulation is very different from a statistics increase, this is a false comparison. And in fact, many ss series say that miracles can allow you to surpass the gods, and that they grant infinite strength. Thus, infinite statistics has further backing.

As for speed, it has been discussed before and it has been concluded that there is no evidence that the attack had infinite speed.

could you give me an example of the debunk? It was a year ago, and so I fail to recall It.

 

[StekFence]

Also, While Infinite cosmos explicitly gave Hyoga an X increase in freezing power, an finite Increase in cosmos from the basic 6 senses to the 7th, gave a speed increase of a million times. So clearly, Speed and power increase far faster then matter manipulation potency in saint seiya.

 

[Hasty12345]

Also, While Infinite cosmos explicitly gave Hyoga an X increase in freezing power, a finite Increase in cosmos from the basic 6 senses to the 7th, gave a speed increase of a million times. So clearly, Speed and power increase far faster then matter manipulation potency in saint seiya.

Not to mention Hyoga’s god cloth temperature is never stated. It’s only stated what temp gods freeze at.

 

[StekFence]

Also, Ive checked the old thread, and your old argument revolves around the concept that gold Saints only move at SoL, which is an incorrect premise. You can look at literally any ss profile with a char that scales to gold Saints on it for proof.

The idea that only gods can exceed SoL is completely hilarious actually. So what, when aiolia fights, he’s tagging enemies with projectiles that are meters away, AND move at the exact same speed as they do? If he is firing SoL attacks at close distances and someone like seiya dodges it, Seiya would be ftl. If seiya was moving at SoL speeds and then was unable to avoid the attacks, then they outspeed him and Aiolia fights at Ftl speeds, no matter which way you slice it, somebody is going FTL here.
If the series claim otherwise, then death of the author.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It’s existence isn’t really relevant. What’s important is that gods and those with the stats of gods have this speed.
The 9th sense is simply another way to obtain this level. I only mentioned that shura was wielding the 9th sense as context for why he Should be scaling to god tiers. It would have been the same if he had a god cloth, or anything like that.

Yes, but it is better to avoid it in the topics, unless we talk exclusively about Episode.G, because the 9th sense only exists in one series of this franchise and the rest ignore the existence of that sense.

matter manipulation is very different from a statistics increase, this is a false comparison. And in fact, many ss series say that miracles can allow you to surpass the gods, and that they grant infinite strength. Thus, infinite statistics has further backing.

could you give me an example of the debunk? It was a year ago, and so I fail to recall It.

The 7th Sense already places humans at the level of gods, this is mentioned from the first volumes of this manga, where it is described that in ancient times the distinction between god and human did not exist, because all humans mastered the 7th Sense during that time. That's why the Golden Saints are on the level of the gods and only ridiculously powerful gods like the Olympians (the highest of all gods), and gods like Hypnos and Thanatos are stronger than them.

It is still power, which is why Hyoga's temperature becomes colder as his cosmos increases, but this does not mean that his temperature becomes infinitely lower than absolute zero just because he has an infinite cosmos at the end of the story.

Also, Ive checked the old thread, and your old argument revolves around the concept that gold Saints only move at SoL, which is an incorrect premise. You can look at literally any ss profile with a char that scales to gold Saints on it for proof.

Remember that this verse needs a good revision, it is something that we have been doing for more than 2 years, but we have not yet done the topic of the franchise canon to start with the revision of this verse. But even in that topic it is made very clear what speed these characters possess as described in the story.

Not to mention Hyoga’s god cloth temperature is never stated. It’s only stated what temp gods freeze at.

Physical resistance is one of the stats that increase with cosmos, and Thanatos and Hypnos are not much weaker than the God Saints, even Hypnos was able to defeat Shun without much trouble.

 

[Hasty12345]

That’s false. Gold cloths don’t freeze at lower temperatures because the user increases their cosmo.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

That’s false. Gold cloths don’t freeze at lower temperatures because the user increases their cosmo.

The natural resistance of the armor does not, but the cosmos of its user increases its resistance, that's why Gestalt is immune to Hyoga's absolute zero attacks and even mentions that that temperature is impossible to freeze him.

 

[StekFence]

Yes, but it is better to avoid it in the topics, unless we talk exclusively about Episode.G, because the 9th sense only exists in one series of this franchise and the rest ignore the existence of that sense.

Not required to avoid it at all. Again, it’s only for scaling purposes. The 9th sense makes you a god tier, so god tiers can do what the 9th sense users can do.

It is still power, which is why Hyoga's temperature becomes colder as his cosmos increases,

his cosmos increase makes his coldness decrease in temperature. its not related to his strength, it’s simply that as Cosmos increases, power inevitably will as well. The fact that his matter manipulation does not become infinitely more potent is irrelevant, as nobody is arguing it would.

The 7th Sense already places humans at the level of gods, this is mentioned from the first volumes of this manga, where it is described that in ancient times the distinction between god and human did not exist, because all humans mastered the 7th Sense during that time. That's why the Golden Saints are on the level of the gods and only ridiculously powerful gods like the Olympians (the highest of all gods), and gods like Hypnos and Thanatos are stronger than them.

If you would like me to make a distinction between gods like oneiros, and gods like Hypnos, I’m fine with that for now. If a god is only at the level of a 7th sense user, then they are not one of the verses god tiers. God cloths,Hades, and 9th sense chars are the relevant examples of a god tiers.

 

[StekFence]

Remember that this verse needs a good revision, it is something that we have been doing for more than 2 years, but we have not yet done the topic of the franchise canon to start with the revision of this verse. But even in that topic it is made very clear what speed these characters possess as described in the story.

Regardless of how fast you think they are, you still have to use the profiles when debating them here, or make a crt as I have, if you feel they are inaccurate. That’s how it is for all verses.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Just wanna say my big verse wide revision should be done this year. Im aiming for early this year like late march but i can't guarantee that. More realistically it'll probably be late summer like late july early August before im done

lots of blogs, and lots of calcs to make.

edit: might break it up into 2 parts. with manga content going first with anime going later to speed up the process.

 

[AlexZiggy]

I don't think we have a single case of infinite heat or cold within Saint Seiya, bar possibly Hyperion's Ouroboros prominence. But like Stek said, such abilities not scaling as directly as speed doesn't invalidate the core argument

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This proposal looks solid to me. I agree.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I don't think we have a single case of infinite heat or cold within Saint Seiya, bar possibly Hyperion's Ouroboros prominence. But like Stek said, such abilities not scaling as directly as speed doesn't invalidate the core argument

Heat scales with levels of cosmo soo...

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

To add to the OP

You have multiple instances of stuff traveling through various universes in a 2-A Cosmology and characters reacting to it. Thats infinite speed reactions at the very least.

For example, Thanatos and poseidon in the UW. Sensing and knowing locations and where their coming from.

not even an infinite multiverse but multiple infinite universes too their moving through.

 

[StekFence]

Heat scales with levels of cosmo soo...

that is true. But gods don’t roast the area around them. For some reason, only bronze Saints do that passively despite having the weakest heat

 

[AlexZiggy]

Heat scales with levels of cosmo soo...

Yeah but didnt Brontes use an attack with a very high but fixed temperature? I'll have to double check

 

[StekFence]

It did, but it doesn’t scale to anyones resistance because it was only a threat to a shura who’s limbs were at risk of imminent disintegration.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yeah but didnt Brontes use an attack with a very high but fixed temperature? I'll have to double check

he did for god knows what reason but UES logic breaks down with anything higher than the 8th sense. it stops becoming UES then

but at this point its becoming derailing. we can talk about it on discord if you tag me.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

If you would like me to make a distinction between gods like oneiros, and gods like Hypnos, I’m fine with that for now. If a god is only at the level of a 7th sense user, then they are not one of the verses god tiers. God cloths,Hades, and 9th sense chars are the relevant examples of a god tiers.

Yes, I just wanted to explain that a god is not much more powerful than a Gold Saint and the level of these also varies in the series.

his cosmos increase makes his coldness decrease in temperature. its not related to his strength, it’s simply that as Cosmos increases, power inevitably will as well. The fact that his matter manipulation does not become infinitely more potent is irrelevant, as nobody is arguing it would.

As I mentioned it is still a feature that is strengthened by cosmos, which does not become infinite just because cosmos increases to infinity, so power multiplication may not work that way.

Although if someone on staff accepts that this power multiplication is valid for the Wiki, and infinite cosmos equals infinite speed, then I am willing to accept it.

After all, we know that a character's speed gradually increases as the cosmos gets stronger. A good example of this is the scene where Seiya's speed increases as his cosmos rises in the battle against Saga.

Regardless of how fast you think they are, you still have to use the profiles when debating them here, or make a crt as I have, if you feel they are inaccurate. That’s how it is for all verses.

We know that the profiles have problems, even Matt himself, who was the person updating this verse, mentioned this detail.

 

[StekFence]

While I do think they have problems, I agree with Golds being faster then sol. Also, absolute zero in ss is kinda weird. Several chars can reach it, and never surpass it despite being able to raise their cosmos.

 

[AlexZiggy]

only the 8th sense exists as the ultimate sense and a power that the gods do not master,

This has never been true Lancelot, even for classic.

 

[StekFence]

Also, we do have statements of gods having infinite power, so there is evidence that stats increase like this

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

This has never been true Lancelot, even for classic.

That is the vision of the classic manga where this is the ultimate sense and even a goddess as powerful as Athena does not have this sense, that's why she could never finish the Holy War and enter the Underworld. It's basically a basic concept of this series, even Taizen himself mentions how the Underworld is inaccessible even to the power of the gods. The gods in any work of the franchise (the only exception is Okada's work) have never mentioned possessing or mastering any sense, because they don't need it, they are born powerful because they are gods, they are a different species than humans.

While I do think they have problems, I agree with Golds being faster then sol. Also, absolute zero in ss is kinda weird. Several chars can reach it, and never surpass it despite being able to raise their cosmos.

Only in very specific moments and basically making a miracle that lasts about one second, because they are always describing that they only have the light speed. They can be faster than the speed of light... yes, but only in a very specific moment and for a short time (many times it is only an attack).

 

[StekFence]

While they describe that they do, it’s completely impossible for them to attack and run at the same speed as they projectiles they shoot. Just considering that kinda of situation assuming one party is SoL will have you conclude one side is either rela or FTL. In any case, let’s stop this derailing, as we both know what’s accepted on the profiles is that golds are mftl+

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

So, do you agree or disagree

I disagree, that doesn't seem like infinite speed

 

[StekFence]

Could you be more specific on why you disagree? Because it sounded you like you agreed with me, that Requiem shura was infinite speed. I was under the impression you disagreed with the cross scaling, not the feat itself

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

While they describe that they do, it’s completely impossible for them to attack and run at the same speed as they projectiles they shoot. Just considering that kinda of situation assuming one party is SoL will have you conclude one side is either rela or FTL. In any case, let’s stop this derailing, as we both know what’s accepted on the profiles is that golds are mftl+

Yes, but we know that the pages have problems, something that was even pointed out by the user who updated this verse. So it is better to avoid for the moment a description that we know is wrong.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree, because I saw the translation in my language it's like several Dragon Ball lines, where the attacks had no end, it's just a line to say that the character is attacking with a lot of attacks, nothing more, will have to bring something solid, before I disagreed with escalating to the main verse, but now that it has given me time to read the chapter has no place in this argument, also the fact that there is no 9th feeling in the canon verse, apart from several endings in the work, this does not seem infinite speed.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Okada's regular Gold Saints are very clearly not intended to be FTL (miracles and 9th sense aside), let alone MFTL, though.

It's even verbatim stated that their maximum speed is the speed of light in Assassin.

 

[AlexZiggy]

That is the vision of the classic manga where this is the ultimate sense and even a goddess as powerful as Athena does not have this sense, that's why she could never finish the Holy War and enter the Underworld. It's basically a basic concept of this series, even Taizen himself mentions how the Underworld is inaccessible even to the p

Shaka was literally called the "Man closest to god" because of the 8th Sense. That alone should tell you there is power beyond the 8th Sense. Even the Shion Q&A confirms that the God Cloths reach a dimension beyond the Arayashiki

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Shaka was literally called the "Man closest to god" because of the 8th Sense. That alone should tell you there is power beyond the 8th Sense. Even the Shion Q&A confirms that the God Cloths reach a dimension beyond the Arayashiki

right, but could you prove that there is some evidence that there is a 9th sense in canon verse, without citing spin-off?

 

[AlexZiggy]

Okada's regular Gold Saints are very clearly not intended to be FTL (miracles and 9th sense aside), let alone MFTL, though.

It's even verbatim stated that their maximum speed is the speed of light in Assassin.

Pretty sure at least Aiolia goes FTL in G on more than one occasion. Maybe it's him being Zeus' vessel idk

 

[Hasty12345]

Okada's regular Gold Saints are very clearly not intended to be FTL (miracles and 9th sense aside), let alone MFTL, though.

It's even verbatim stated that their maximum speed is the speed of light in Assassin.

Okada makes Saga and Shura say heaps of dumb stuff in Asassins that aren’t even self consistent in his own work.

like how Gold Saint techniques are inherited, yet Aiolos taught Aiolia Leo techniques and still somehow knows them as the Sagi Saint and Pope??

Aiolia has 3 separate FTL feats in G, and whilst I actually am of the opinion no other gold scales to Aiolia’s speed, Shura is clearly wrong (although to his credit, Shura wasn’t present for any of Aiolia’s speed feats iirc).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Why is the 9th sense even important? because its not really needed to prove infinite speed. just needed for scaling, and even then its not really super important for the scaling.

Classic series has its own supporting evidence for Infinite speed feats

G has its own supporting evidence for infinite speed.

At this point i feel like things are just becoming a mess of "THAT AIN'T CANON" and its just derailing the whole thread.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Shaka was literally called the "Man closest to god" because of the 8th Sense. That alone should tell you there is power beyond the 8th Sense. Even the Shion Q&A confirms that the God Cloths reach a dimension beyond the Arayashiki

There is a lot of difference between the concept of Deva and Buddha with the concept of Greek God, even the series shows that they are different, Shaka is the closest man to a god, because he is reaching a level close to that of Buddha, even Shijima is named as the closest man to god because he can talk to Buddha.

 

[StekFence]

I disagree, because I saw the translation in my language it's like several Dragon Ball lines, where the attacks had no end,

The word used is Mugen I’m pretty sure. It means infinite. Also, to have no end is synonymous with infinite.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Aiolia has 3 separate FTL feats in G, and whilst I actually am of the opinion no other gold scales to Aiolia’s speed, Shura is clearly wrong (although to his credit, Shura wasn’t present for any of Aiolia’s speed feats iirc).

Those scenes are clearly described as a miracle or something he did by concentrating all his cosmos to move at that speed in a single attack and for that single occasion, this does not mean that his speed is always like that, and it is only something he reaches for an instant in a very specific moment.

 

[AlexZiggy]

right, but could you prove that there is some evidence that there is a 9th sense in canon verse, without citing spin-off?

I mean no? At least not in the way Okada depicts it. But that wasn't he point. I was just illustrating the fact that the 8th Sense being the be-all-end-all of power in classic Saint Seiya doesn't make much sense. There's also other statements in a video game Kurumada was involved with but I don't have them atm

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The word used is Mugen I’m pretty sure. It means infinite. Also, to have no end is synonymous with infinite.

having no end also means a lot of attacks, again this is no argument for infinite speed.