Infinite Speed Saint seiya Upgrade

[StekFence]

the word used is Mugen???

 

[Hasty12345]

Those scenes are clearly described as a miracle or something he did by concentrating all his cosmos to move at that speed in a single attack and for that single occasion, this does not mean that his speed is always like that, and it is only something he reaches for an instant in a very specific moment.

I never said it was casual, and I’m well aware of the toll it took on Aiolia to perform those feats. But if you read what I was replying too, you’d know your comment isn’t relevant.

 

[Hasty12345]

having no end also means a lot of attacks, again this is no argument for infinite speed.

If you read the chapter, you’d know Kido’s specific ability is mathematics manipulation, he multiplies his techniques by infinity, you can’t multiply by “endless”, it’s not a number (nor is it the natural interpretation of the term infinite/mugen in this context). Contextually, there are infinite fists flying at Shura.

 

[StekFence]

having no end also means a lot of attacks, again this is no argument for infinite speed.

My guy, the raws use the word Mugen, which means infinite

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I never said it was casual, and I’m well aware of the toll it took on Aiolia to perform those feats. But if you read what I was replying too, you’d know your comment isn’t relevant.

No one mentioned that they could not exceed that speed, only that it is not casual and that it is something that happens at a very specific moment, when they ignite their cosmos beyond its limit or reach a miracle. In any other circumstance they are simply the speed of light as described by the characters themselves in the story.

My guy, the raws use the word Mugen, which means infinite

He only multiplies his blows through a dimensional ability, this means he is just constantly multiplying his fist, but none of this has anything to do with infinite speed or even with the character's speed. Because Brontes does not use speed for this attack and Shura blocked the attack with a single ranged move, as his Excalibur created an explosion (pillar of light) to stop the attack.

 

[AlexZiggy]

There is a lot of difference between the concept of Deva and Buddha with the concept of Greek God, even the series shows that they are different, Shaka is the closest man to a god, because he is reaching a level close to that of Buddha, even Shijima is named as the closest man to god because he can talk to Buddha.

Right but then the Olympians are considered the strongest gods so I fail to see how that's relevant.
Unless you want to argue Buddha shouldn't be considered a god in the traditional sense, but then again that still doesn't address Shion's comment. The Arayashiki is no the endpoint of power for classic Saint Seiya.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Those scenes are clearly described as a miracle or something he did by concentrating all his cosmos to move at that speed in a single attack and for that single occasion, this does not mean that his speed is always like that, and it is only something he reaches for an instant in a very specific moment.

exact, like the bronze boys who take blitz every moment of Mach 16 speed and light speed in next dimension

 

[KoolRay]

Seems simple enough, those are pretty direct references linking cosmo to speed, not sure to what degree but if it's infinite then of course the speed would have to be as well.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Pretty sure at least Aiolia goes FTL in G on more than one occasion. Maybe it's him being Zeus' vessel idk

When he does say they literally say he reached the speed of the gods by doing so (and it took so much effort he almost shattered his body), so it's perfectly consistent with them being Light Speed at full speed otherwise.

Okada makes Saga and Shura say heaps of dumb stuff in Asassins that aren’t even self consistent in his own work.

like how Gold Saint techniques are inherited, yet Aiolos taught Aiolia Leo techniques and still somehow knows them as the Sagi Saint and Pope??

Aiolia has 3 separate FTL feats in G, and whilst I actually am of the opinion no other gold scales to Aiolia’s speed, Shura is clearly wrong (although to his credit, Shura wasn’t present for any of Aiolia’s speed feats iirc).

Shura is not the only one who says that, even the gods who witness Aiolia's speed feats believe so.

 

[StekFence]

Because Brontes does not use speed for this attack and Shura blocked the attack with a single ranged move, as his Excalibur created an explosion (pillar of light) to stop the attack.

Actually, the visuals show shura just swiping as he does, he didn’t destroy all the on panel fists. It’s just implied he somehow did it without actually showing him doing it. The most logical conclusion is that he did it the way he said he would. By intercepting all of them.

 

[StekFence]

Guys, can we leave gold saint speed for another thread, its really not that important here. Or relevant Tbh.

 

[Hasty12345]

No one mentioned that they could not exceed that speed, only that it is not casual and that it is something that happens at a very specific moment, when they ignite their cosmos beyond its limit or reach a miracle. In any other circumstance they are simply the speed of light as described by the characters themselves in the story.

He only multiplies his hits through a dimensional ability, this means that they multiply constantly, but none of this has anything to do with infinite speed. Because Brontes does not use speed for this attack and Shura blocked the attack with a single ranged move, as his Excalibur created an explosion (pillar of light) to stop the attack.

You literally just repeated your first response to me. Read the statement I was responding to by Gemini, then you should actually understand the claim I was debunking (which was Shura’s so called “maximum speed of a gold Saint”, which in reality is not true, even Saga can casually catch Shura’s light speed Excalibur like it’s nothing).

you don’t need to continually reply to me repeating your previous comment with added word salad.

 

[AlexZiggy]

We're getting off topic. Gold Saint speed revisions can be done at a later date with a seperate CRT.

 

[Hasty12345]

When he does say they literally say he reached the speed of the gods by doing so (and it took so much effort he almost shattered his body), so it's perfectly consistent with them being Light Speed at full speed otherwise.

Shura is not the only one who says that, even the gods who witness Aiolia's speed feats believe so.

You cant simultaneously claim the maximum speed of a gold Saint is light speed, then post a FTL feat then maintain the initial claim is correct…

I already said I don’t think any other Gold can reasonably be scaled to Aiolia’s speed, but even if that’s the case, Shura was still wrong, even if Aiolia is the sole exception.

I should probably note Aiolia’s “peak speed”, however you want to label it.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Right but then the Olympians are considered the strongest gods so I fail to see how that's relevant.
Unless you want to argue Buddha shouldn't be considered a god in the traditional sense, but then again that still doesn't address Shion's comment. The Arayashiki is no the endpoint of power for classic Saint Seiya.

Buddha is not a deity like them, he is a man who attained enlightenment, that is why devas and buddhas exist on a completely different plane than gods and mortals, who exist on the physical plane. The 8th sense is not purely a matter of power, it is a state of being, a unique quality of enlightened beings. The gods may be stronger, but that does not mean that they possess the 8th sense, something we can clearly see with Athena, who does not possess this sense and that is why she could never invade the Underworld.

Actually, the visuals show shura just swiping as he does, he didn’t destroy all the on panel fists. It’s just implied he somehow did it without actually showing him doing it. The most logical conclusion is that he did it the way he said he would. By intercepting all of them.

He intercepted them with an attack with range, it is not like he destroyed each one of their fists, he only made one attack and the range of it was enough to destroy them, because Brontes' attack only covers an area of a few meters during that scene.

 

[AlexZiggy]

He only multiplies his blows through a dimensional ability, this means he is just constantly multiplying his fist, but none of this has anything to do with infinite speed or even with the character's speed. Because Brontes does not use speed for this attack and Shura blocked the attack with a single ranged move, as his Excalibur created an explosion (pillar of light) to stop the attack.

Infinite danmaku should still be considered infinite speed, could be wrong though not entirely sure about the wiki policy on that.
Which clashes with his words. If he could diffuse the fists via a single attack there would be no point in accelerating past light speed.

 

[Hasty12345]

Nirvana is accessed through Yomotsu Hirasaka, I don’t want to hear none of this “gods don’t have 8th sense” crap. Hades rules over the UW which is verbatim stated to contain Nirvana. ND confirms this and it’s written by Kurumada.

 

[StekFence]

Lancelot. You are aware that the attacks were all around him yes? several layers of arms all around him. And you claim he destroyed them all with one attack that somehow destroyed the arms behind him. By slicing a sword down in front of him. When is Excalibur ever not a singular directional move? Especially one that had the effect of a massive aoe explosion. Why would he even need to speed up then?
In the scans I posted above, shura claims his present speed is not sufficient to intercept all the punches. This is why he uses the 9th sense. His words show that to Intercept all of the infinite attacks, he needs godly power.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Infinite danmaku should still be considered infinite speed, could be wrong though not entirely sure about the wiki policy on that.
Which clashes with his words. If he could diffuse the fists via a single attack there would be no point in accelerating past light speed.

Brontes is as strong and fast as a Gold Saint, so he needs superior power and speed to fight him (similar to how Ikki has to become stronger and faster than Aiacos to defeat him), though nothing to do with infinite speed, it's just a really powerful ranged attack to shatter his fists at that moment. As for Brontes, well he uses a hax ability like his dimensional manipulation to create that multiplying effect in his fist, so it doesn't seem to be speed in the strict sense.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

You cant simultaneously claim the maximum speed of a gold Saint Saint seiya upgrades.is light speed, then post a FTL feat then maintain the initial claim is correct…

I already said I don’t think any other Gold can reasonably be scaled to Aiolia’s speed, but even if that’s the case, Shura was still wrong, even if Aiolia is the sole exception.

I should probably note Aiolia’s “peak speed”, however you want to label it.

That sounds reasonable, fair enough. At any rate, contrary to the current profiles, canonically, FTL or MFTL is definitely out of the question for the standard level of a 7th sense user.

 

[StekFence]

he actually seems quite a bit stronger. He lived through the ex machina remember? And tanked the sui sei ken without a scratch. Also, Shura explicitly states, that in order to accomplish his task of intercepting the attacks, he Needs the 9th sense. He does not ever mention needing this to clash with Brontes. That is not the reason he used his 9th sense in that scene

 

[AlexZiggy]

Brontes is as strong and fast as a Gold Saint, so he needs superior power and speed to fight him (similar to how Ikki has to become stronger and faster than Aiacos to defeat him), though nothing to do with infinite speed, it's just a really powerful ranged attack to shatter his fists at that moment. As for Brontes, well he uses a hax ability like his dimensional manipulation to create that multiplying effect in his fist, so it doesn't seem to be speed in the strict sense.

... Brontes is as strong and as fast as a Gold Saint? My guy. Brontes tanked an attack by a stronger Shura than the one who took down Zeus in GA. There is no way he is Gold Saint level lmao. He's also stated to be an existence similar to that of Shura, who was stated to have transcended humanity. Him being Gold Saint level makes no contextual sense.
Yes he multiplies his fist infinitely. That's what mugen means. It's Danmaku but as far as I'm aware, launching infinite attacks should still be considered infinite speed.

 

[Hasty12345]

I cant believe what I’m reading…

anyone who can tank a 10th sense 3 divine sword technique attack straight to the head and be genuinely unphased is not “gold Saint level”. That’s just absurd.

 

[StekFence]

^its one of the best if not the best dura feats in the series

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Lancelot. You are aware that the attacks were all around him yes? several layers of arms all around him. And you claim he destroyed them all with one attack that somehow destroyed the arms behind him. By slicing a sword down in front of him. When is Excalibur ever not a singular directional move? Especially one that had the effect of a massive aoe explosion. Why would he even need to speed up then?
In the scans I posted above, shura claims his present speed is not sufficient to intercept all the punches. This is why he uses the 9th sense. His words show that to Intercept all of the infinite attacks, he needs godly power.

The Excalibur can be an explosive attack, even generating an explosion similar to the Galaxian Explosion one scene before.

In that scene, Shura himself only uses a single attack, he is not using multiple moves, only a single attack, which destroys his opponent's arms. At no point is Shura using infinite attacks and he only uses one move with a range that destroys the fists that are directed in his direction.

Spoiler

Brontes' fists must move at least at a speed comparable to a Gold Saint, so Shura needs to be faster to anticipate the attack. But none of this indicates infinite speed, as Shura is only destroying the fists with a ranged attack.

 

[Xxiaa]

Have any decent arguments been dropped? Or is still the same nitpicking garbage. If something is written in a specific way, it was intended to be such. Why would Okada use the literal kanji for infinite/infinity but refer to something finite?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

... Brontes is as strong and as fast as a Gold Saint? My guy. Brontes tanked an attack by a stronger Shura than the one who took down Zeus in GA. There is no way he is Gold Saint level lmao. He's also stated to be an existence similar to that of Shura, who was stated to have transcended humanity. Him being Gold Saint level makes no contextual sense.
Yes he multiplies his fist infinitely. That's what mugen means. It's Danmaku but as far as I'm aware, launching infinite attacks should still be considered infinite speed.

Shura can only use his maximum power for a second at the end and easily destroys the Giant summoned by Brontes, after that he disappears because he can't stay long in that dimension. The guy was basically weakened during that whole fight and limited because he has become an exile in space and time, even Kokuto tells him how his arms separated and he couldn't stay long in that place. Also, this was a limited Zeus in a human body, which he didn't quite control because Aiolia kept resisting and confronting him.

He does this by means of a dimensional ability, it is more of a hax, than pure speed on the part of the character.

 

[StekFence]

Shura needs to be faster to anticipate the attack

Shura didn’t say he wanted to anticipate it though. It was already coming at him, and he said he wants to Intercept them all. In addition, the excalibur is only shown destroying some of the attacks. It destroyed many of the ones in front of him sure, nothing To the ones outside the wave of energy and behind him.
it seems sus to say the wave of energy that is in front of him, which usually has the quality of traveling forward and cutting things in its path, would this time become akin to an aoe bomb.

 

[Hasty12345]

The dialogue is clear was to what was happening, the visuals are a poor representation of the situation.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Shura didn’t say he wanted to anticipate it though. It was already coming at him, and he said he wants to Intercept them all. In addition, the excalibur is only shown destroying some of the attacks. It destroyed many of the ones in front of him sure, nothing To the ones outside the wave of energy and behind him.
it seems sus to say the wave of energy that is in front of him, which usually has the quality of traveling forward and cutting things in its path, would this time become akin to an aoe bomb.

Shura mentions that he wants to anticipate/intercept them, since the attacks were still moving in his direction during that scene, and Shura manages to attack before the blows managed to hit his body. In that same scene we can see how Shura destroys the fists with a single Excalibur move with great range, at no time can we see the character using multiple attacks and only uses a single attack with range to destroy the fists.

 

[Hasty12345]

Anticipate and intercept are not synonymous.

 

[Crabwhale]

Alright, so, apologies for not being knowledgeable on the verse, or for not reading the 100+ messages posted since the OP. Being fully transparent here, moving forward.

First of all, this has nothing to do with the validity of the revision itself, but please, in the future, format your threads properly. It's incredibly annoying to read the message being conveyed interspaced with images awkwardly cutting it into chunks it was clearly not written to be cut into.

Second of all, a Google translated scan is completely unacceptable in any regard. If you want it to be taken into consideration, ask one of the member that's listed in the foreign languages page about it.

Third, infinite attack generation does not infinite speed grant. In this case it doesn't seem like the character intercepting them is moving multiple times within a certain time frame to stop all said infinite attacks. It looks like one big move, and really, that could just be infinite range.

Otherwise, I'm neutral on the rest of the scans.

 

[StekFence]

Second of all, a Google translated scan is completely unacceptable in any regard. If you want it to be taken into consideration, ask one of the member that's listed in the foreign languages page about it.

Third, infinite attack generation does not infinite speed grant. In this case it doesn't seem like the character intercepting them is moving multiple times within a certain time frame to stop all said infinite attacks. It looks like one big move, and really, that could just be infinite range.

Apologies for the bad format. I’ll get on that translation, and also, the character who is intercepting the attacks, literally does not have the capabilities to destroy all the attacks via range or aoe or anything like that, with the attack he used. The closest thing to his attack is a very big sword.

 

[Hasty12345]

The god using his ability to generate the infinite fists isn’t the speed feat, it’s the character intercepting them.

and as I’ve said previously. The dialogue makes it absolutely clear as to what happened, the limitations on the artists imagination shouldn’t be debunks to the described situation.

 

[StekFence]

Shura mentions that he wants to anticipate/intercept them, since the attacks were still moving in his direction during that scene, and Shura manages to attack before the blows managed to hit his body. In that same scene we can see how Shura destroys the fists with a single Excalibur move with great range, at no time can we see the character using multiple attacks and only uses a single attack with range to destroy the fists.

Btw, what’s your take on the infinite cosmos stuff.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Apologies for the bad format. I’ll get on that translation, and also, the character who is intercepting the attacks, literally does not have the capabilities to destroy all the attacks via range or aoe or anything like that, with the attack he used. The closest thing to his attack is a very big sword.

Literally in the image we can see how he destroys the fists with a single movement of Excalibur, he never uses multiple attacks, this means that he destroys them with a single attack with enough aoe to destroy all the fists with a single movement.

Spoiler

Btw, what’s your take on the infinite cosmos stuff.

Ask a staff member.

In my opinion I have never liked this kind of power multiplications, but I have seen them used in some pages.

 

[StekFence]

Literally in the image we can see how he destroys the fists with a single movement of Excalibur, he never uses multiple attacks, this means that he destroys them with a single attack with enough aoe to destroy all the fists with a single movement.

That’s not within the capabilities of the attack tho. I’d understand if it was Galaxian explosion or Lightining plasma, or even the sui sei ken. But this is an attack that literally specs into precision

 

[AlexZiggy]

Shura can only use his maximum power for a second at the end and easily destroys the Giant summoned by Brontes, after that he disappears because he can't stay long in that dimension. The guy was basically weakened during that whole fight and limited because he has become an exile in space and time, even Kokuto tells him how his arms separated and he couldn't stay long in that place. Also, this was a limited Zeus in a human body, which he didn't quite control because Aiolia kept resisting and confronting him.

He does this by means of a dimensional ability, it is more of a hax, than pure speed on the part of the character.

1. The Giant does not scale to Brontes. Kido himself was fine.
2. He literally had to reform his limbs to perform Ex Machina to beat Zeus. Not sure what you're trying to say here. Him being on a time limit doesn't actually make his attacks weaker.
3. Are you actually suggesting Zeus-Aiolia is Gold Saint level? Because if that's not what you are getting at I don't see what your point is.
Alright so infinite Danmaku does not translate to infinite speed on Kido's part.
Shura still diffused them. He first says intercepting them all with light speed would be impossible, so ge has to go faster. If he intended to diffuse all of them at once with a single aoe move he wouldnt need to have gone FTL in the first place.

 

[StekFence]

Literally in the image we can see how he destroys the fists with a single movement of Excalibur, he never uses multiple attacks, this means that he destroys them with a single attack with enough aoe to destroy all the fists with a single movement.

Spoiler

Ask a staff member.

In my opinion I have never liked this kind of power multiplications, but I have seen them used in some pages.

Aight, I’m only asking cos that’s the primary argument and we’ve been talking about the shura thing for a while

 

[Crabwhale]

Isn't Ultima a supporter of the verse? Perhaps ye should ask him to comment.