Infinite Speed Guidelines

[Kepekley23]

> You missed my point yet again. I never said that they are automatically, completely, absolutely invalid. They are invalid like 90% of the time, and should be assumed to be invalid until proven otherwise.

No verse in history treats a timeless void as something that grants whoever exists beyond it Infinite Speed. We assume it because it's what basic mathematic entails. No verse can actually "prove" the speed, we're the ones that try to do it.

> You know Burden of Proof? Right? It's the verse's job to prove that "Timeless void" actually entails anything, rather than what we do right now of automatically assuming it does until proven otherwise.

Same as above. None of the verses you claim are the "exception to the rule" are exceptions. They merely have more statements and proof of the void being timeless.

However, more proof for timeleness doesn't matter because your logic requires the dismissal of void feats.

> The consistency absolutely matters, as does the level of detail. You misinterpreted the starting premise of my argument and your response focused from there.

It doesn't.

I don't know why you believe that a verse having more statements of its void being timeless proves anything when the whole premise of your argument is that a timeless void is worth nothing. It just means the Verse's void is indeed timeless...but there is no difference between DBH or other, more consistent series in this context, because you're debating with the starting assumption that the Demon Realm is a true timeless void like any other. Hence why you tried to disprove timeless void feats meaning anything.

You're failing to understand the point.

 

[Sera_EX]

Sera does not have any standard because she views everything in an unbiased manner. I have debated using more than one side of the spectrum. There's a reason I was, is, and always will be neutral about this. There is little to no information other than statements.

What I was doing was applying those statements to different standards to see if any of them stacked up, including the Youtube-wanked immeasurable rating.

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably redundant for me to constantly say that I agree with Matthew's points, so you can just assume that I keep following the discussion and that he and Sera have my support unless I state otherwise. I am too busy, tired, and distracted to participate much myself though.

(I learned that some horrible things happened today, but that is very off topic.)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Kep

"No verse assumes / proves that timeless voids grant Infinite Speed".

Except Digimon and FFXIII both do, so this statement is inherently wrong. They are two verses where moving in a void actually means anything.

"None of the verses you claim are the "exception to the rule" are exceptions. They merely have more statements and proof of the void being timeless."

They have a ridiculous amount more information on what the timeless void is, and what existing in it entails. Infinite Speed isn't a leap in logic, but an acceptable conclusion here.

"However, more proof for timeleness doesn't matter because your logic requires the dismissal of void feats."

It absolutely does, because I don't. Again, your interpretation of my standards are inherently incorrect.

"I don't know why you believe that a verse having more statements of its void being timeless proves anything when the whole premise of your argument is that a timeless void is worth nothing."

Because it isn't. The premise of my argument is that until proven otherwise, timeless voids mean nothing. Just like moving in higher-dimensional spaces, non-spatial spaces, dimensionless spaces, etc. don't entail speed. Baseline Low 2-C voids shouldn't either.

That is, UNTIL one can prove that the nature of this timeless void and the consequences of existing in it are demonstrably real and detailed enough to warrant legitimately accepting what its timelessness might entail.

And again, my initial assumption was never that the DBH void was real.

 

[Sera_EX]

Sorry to hear about that. Things are bad lately yes but I shan't derail the thread with that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Kep

Can you and I talk in real time in Portuguese? I feel that a misunderstanding of communication is the major contention between you and I.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Yes, given where you live you are obviously under constant threat. You have my sympathies for that.

 

[Kaltias]

Matt, Kep isn't saying that you think that DBH's void is real.

He is saying that if, for the sake of the argument, you considered it as real, that would be an infinite speed feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree entirely with that premise too, Kaltias, which I state extensively in my posts.

Even assuming DBH's void as real, I see absolutely nothing in its properties, explanation and detail that entail it being an acceptable speed feat. There are far more developed and provable voids that are rightfully not accepted as speed feats. This shouldn't either.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Except Digimon and FFXIII both do, so this statement is inherently wrong. They are two verses where moving in a void actually means anything.

No, they don't. All that both of these verses have is more statements suggesting the voids are timeless. They require our current standards to stand. Nowhere in Digimon, nor FFXIII does anyone treat th void as smething that requires Infinite Speed to cross.

> They have a ridiculous amount more information on what the timeless void is, and what existing in it entails. Infinite Speed isn't a leap in logic, but an acceptable conclusion here.

For the fourth time, that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if they have more proof the void is timeless or not if timeless void feats are worthless.

> It absolutely does, because I don't. Again, your interpretation of my standards are inherently incorrect.

Elaborate.

> Because it isn't. The premise of my argument is that until proven otherwise, timeless voids mean nothing. Just like moving in higher-dimensional spaces, non-spatial spaces, dimensionless spaces, etc. don't entail speed. Baseline Low 2-C voids shouldn't either.

Okay. So detail to me how any of the "exceptions" prove otherwise. The Royal Knights are Infinite because they take trips on a location that is beyond time. The FFXVII void is a normal timeless void, the difference is that it has more statements proving its status. That doesn't change the fact that none of these verses treat the feats as Infinitely fast feats, which is the point.

> That is, UNTIL one can prove that the nature of this timeless void and the consequences of existing in it are demonstrably real and detailed enough to warrant legitimately accepting what its timelessness might entail.

I'm not denying that, if we were to go by strict standards, mostly everyone would be downgraded. But that'd include all "exceptions" you speak of.

 

[Kepekley23]

You're still not explaining what "property" of these exceptions make them usable for speed feats. They are plainly never portrayed as actually requiring Infinite Speed to travel.

I've also entered the chat.

 

[Bluetrekking]

There are two consequences of the Demon Realm that I know of:

• The Time Patrol can't time travel to the Demon Realm as there is no time to travel to

• When Xeno Goku goes SSJ4, he usually affects space-time. However, when he was in the Demon Realm, Chronoa tells him not to worry as there is no time to affect.

 

[DMB_1]

Final Form Mira is also stated to be an enemy that "trascends time"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"No, they don't. All that both of these verses have is more statements suggesting the voids are timeless."

It's really not just that. The descriptions are so more detailed in every way, both on the nature of the void, how it is to live in it, and what moving there entails that Infinite Speed is a very easy conclusion. Even stuff like Lightning's fight in FFXIII taking both endless time and not at all is evidence of Infinite Speed.

"They require our current standards to stand."

They really don't. Both were Infinite even with older standards.

"For the fourth time, that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if they have more proof the void is timeless or not if timeless void feats are worthless."

For the fourth time myself, void feats aren't always worthless. How many times do I need to say that? You are looking at my argument from an entirely wrong initial premise.

"Elaborate."

How many times do I need to? I elaborated many times already in many posts, including this one, but every time I do you just say I don't and continue interpreting from an incorrect premise.

"Okay. So detail to me how any of the "exceptions" prove otherwise"

Both Dragonmasterxyz and The Everlasting have in their longer posts. But to elaborate further, on FFXIII alone:

Its mere existence nullifies the concept of time, time travel is an effortless thing to do in it. The passage of time explictely has no meaning. Precognition is worthless because there is no future to sense. People can exist in multiple eras simultaneously. Battles can last for an eternity and not for an eternity simultaneously. Non-linear progression of events happen.

Dragon Ball Heroes has nothing of this. It is not comparable.

"mostly everyone would be downgraded."

That's fine.

"But that'd include all "exceptions" you speak of."

It really wouldn't. You also seem to be the only one who's reaching this conclusion regarding both series.

 

[Sera_EX]

Transcends time =/= zero time. So again if they are saying time doesn't affect it or there is no time that is because it is outside the linear flow. Not "time stands still".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Final Form Mira is also stated to be an enemy that "trascends time"

In regards to Mira's statement, it was agreed that that is just relating to his ability to time travel and move between timelines freely.

It's no different than Jiren "transcending time".

 

[Sera_EX]

Mm hm.

 

[Kaltias]

Matt I think that if you could explain which statement in particular makes the DA legit infinite speed, that would help a lot.

Because objectively the criteria can't be "a void doesn't grant infinite speed but a very detailed void does".

So what's the property other than being timeless that makes the DA Digimons infinite?

 

[Kepekley23]

Kaltias is conveying what I said more easily, but I'm still writing a respose anyway.

 

[Sera_EX]

It's in the OP.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Matt I think that if you could explain which statement in particular makes the DA legit infinite speed, that would help a lot.
Because objectively the criteria can't be "a void doesn't grant infinite speed but a very detailed void does".

So what's the property other than being timeless that makes the DA Digimons infinite?

It's not that loose. It's that the statements for the Dark Area constantly hammer home how the dimension is spatially distorted, how time is literally frozen in side, you can literally move through past, present and future like 3D movement there, and that you navigate through space-time itself when moving there.

 

[Kepekley23]

> It's really not just that. The descriptions are so more detailed in every way, both on the nature of the void, how it is to live in it, and what moving there entails that Infinite Speed is a very easy conclusion. Even stuff like Lightning's fight in FFXIII taking both endless time and not at all is evidence of Infinite Speed.

Except the explanation has nothing to do with speed. Being beyond time alone is not enough for Infinite Speed. All both franchises have are more and more "this void is beyond space and time" statements. Put two and two together - what does being "more explained" entail here, if both are timeless voids that do nothing more than being normal timeless voids?

> For the fourth time myself, void feats aren't always worthless. How many times do I need to say that? You are looking at my argument from an entirely wrong initial premise.

Your premise was built from a perspective of "even if DBH has a timeless void, it doesn't mean anything", which effectively nullifies all legitimate voids because it pretends, even if you don't believe the Demon Realm is an actual void, that even true timeless voids are worthless.

> Its mere existence nullifies the concept of time, time travel is an effortless thing to do in it.

What does this have to do with Infinite Speed?

> Precognition is worthless because there is no future to sense

Which confirms there isn't time. But what does that have to do with Infinite Speed?

> People can exist in multiple eras simultaneously. Battles can last for an eternity and not for an eternity simultaneously. Non-linear progression of events happen.

For Digimon: The Royal Knights are Infinite because they travel in a space beyond time and distance, nothing more. Not at all different from other voids.

 

[Kepekley23]

> It's in the OP.

No it isn't.

"The heroes advance through space-time, putting their lives and the future on the line!"

This is just crossing a timeless realm. All the Royal Knights do is travel around voids that lack time, as confirmed in the game.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They're infinite because Alphamon transcends space and time, iirc.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

This may be shooting myself in the foot, but I want accuracy and if this downgrades Dark Area mons so be it.

Only these scans deal with the Dark Area.

Born from the Dark Area, which exists in a spatial distortio, it is a wicked Ghost Digimon.
	~ Digimon Pendulum (Bakemon)​

Time stops, complete darkness and Dark Energy surrounds all of you now! It looks like everyone was somehow transported to the Dark Area.
	~ Digimon Heroes​

 

[Kaltias]

Matt, literally only time being frozen inside is infinite speed out of the things that you mentioned. Spatial distortions aren't related to time, and the second one is immeasurable speed (and it's not related to the DA)

 

[Kepekley23]

^ The context of Alphamon transcending Time and Space is the same as Mira "transcending time". He is able to travel in a timeless realm to the future and the past.

 

[Sera_EX]

>Why is Digimon infinite?

As Yumi-tan said, there's blogs explaining their statistics through and through.

>Why is DBH infinite?

Three statements that are vague enough to suggest a higher ranking which is even more outlandish.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay, Kep.

This paragraph here:

"Your premise was built from a perspective of "even if DBH has a timeless void, it doesn't mean anything", which effectively nullifies all legitimate voids because it pretends, even if you don't believe the Demon Realm is an actual void, that even true timeless voids are worthless."

... Is wrong. Like, objectively so. I wrote my premise / proposal and it does not follow this line of thought, in the slightest. And I cannot for the life of me begin to think how you reached this conclusion.

My point is that Timeless Voids don't mean anything until proven otherwise. Once they start meaning something, Infinite Speed can be discussed.

 

[Kepekley23]

> As Yumi-tan said, there's blogs explaining their statistics through and through.

Which doesn't mean much, because that's what we're contesting. That being more detailed = \ = Infinite Speed.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Now I do not know if "Spatial Distortions" mean much but that is a consistent statement. And I've posted everything else above.

A Fallen Angel Digimon whose body is clad in jet-black cloth. Although it was originally a shining Angemon-species Digimon, by falling to the Dark Area, which exists in a spatial distortion of the Digital World, it became a fallen angel. As proof of that, the Mark of Evil surfaced dramatically on its chest. It has a cunning and fiendish personality, but it also possesses an outstanding intellect. It is said that those who have stared into its two eyes, which shine a deep crimson, are mind-controlled and completely dominated by Devimon.
	~ Devimon Official Databook​

 

[Kepekley23]

That actually implies "space" is present in the Dark Area, since it is a distorted space.

 

[Kaltias]

I honestly never heard anything about spatial distortions being used for speed feats before this thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Someone get da Executor here.

 

[Kepekley23]

The Seven Great Demon Lords are fine as they are, but if we're going to get these new standards in I believe the Royal Knights need to be downgraded.

The context of them transcending space and time is similar to Mira's feat of "transcending time". They are able to make trips on realms without time in order to travel between different Digital Worlds or futures.

 

[Kaltias]

The RK scale from the SGDL tho.

 

[DodoNova2]

They're infinite because Alphamon transcends space and time, iirc.

This is Immeasurable IIRC

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm pretty sure there's a lot more supporting the Digimons.

 

[Kepekley23]

Alphamon doesn't literally transcend space and time.

The RKs use a Digital World that is beyond time in order to travel to other locations, as the OP explains.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Coming from the person who's been arguing against Digimon until I pulled a Vegeta and joined the other side, I know for a fact there's more info for a speed beginning with "I" than just Alphamon's thing.