Infinite Speed Guidelines

[Tsubaki_Blue]

Void feats are clearly irrelevant. Just because you can swim in water doesn't mean you can swim on land. So if people aren't immeasurable for moving outside the time continuum than people are infinite for moving in a timeless void merely because they move in that void only. Permissible standards should always be applied universally.

 

[Kepekley23]

What's the difference between existing before time was created and existing in a timeless realm? Both lack time. The equation (speed = infinity) would be the same.

Not only that, but you said yourself that taking a trip on a space beyond time isn't enough for Infinite speed in your latest post.

Can we establish something here?

 

[Sera_EX]

Yes ma'am :')

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The difference is that in the former time as a dimension doesn't even exist. You're never going to be bound by the flow of time because you predate the idea entirely.

Being an existence that predates time vs existing in a place without time are completely different. I thoughtthat was obvious?

 

[DodoNova2]

Void feats are clearly irrelevant. Just because you can swim in water doesn't mean you can swim on land. So if people aren't immeasurable for moving outside the time continuum than people are infinite moving in a timeless void merely because they move in that void only. Permissible standards should always be applied universally.

Ninja'd DarkLK OvO

 

[Kepekley23]

MCU Dormammu outside the Dark Dimension is bound by time despite predating it, so that's not true

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Like, I can legit point to an example in fiction. Cthulhu predates our space-time continuum and is thus unbound by our laws of physics entirely.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Void feats are clearly irrelevant. Just because you can swim in water doesn't mean you can swim on land. So if people aren't immeasurable for moving outside the time continuum than people are infinite for moving in a timeless void merely because they move in that void only. Permissible standards should always be applied universally.

Not with that attitude. That's quitter talk. Ovo

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

MCU Dormammu outside the Dark Dimension is bound by time despite predating it, so that's not true

Out of context. He is only bound by time when Strange uses an Infinity Stone against him. Not naturally.

That's a feat for the Stone, not a weakness of Dormammu.

 

[Kepekley23]

No. The point of Strange using the Eye of Agamotto on Dormammu was to draw a bubble of time to the Dark Dimension, a place that predated time. Dormammu's timelessness made him weak against time, because it was a foreign concept to him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To elaborate further...

Being from a reality devoid of regular space and time does not relate at all to your own existence. We are from a universe that has 4 dimensions, but we aren't 4th dimensional ourselves. Granted, that isn't the best analogy because dimensions in real life aren't one to one with fiction, but it is to illustrate my point.

Continuing, in fiction we are often shown higher-dimensional or beyond-dimensional realms which can posssess lower-dimensional beings within it, who are clearly outside the flow of time.

The Void of Oblivion in The Elder Scrolls is beyond the multiverse of Mundus, and exists outside space-time. It is a realm defined solely by the will of its ruling Princes, which encompasses all possibility and imagination.

... That doesn't mean that every being there is an Immeasurable Higher-Dimensional God. The lesser Daedra are just vaguely superhuman monsters that can be countered by human warriors and mages.

Meanwhile, a being which predates the very concept of time, or at least its invention, will not be affected by its flow. By coming into existence "before" time, he already demonstrates to not being bound by its flow. The whole system does not apply to him, as he is himself outside the system entirely.

And not just currently located outside the system.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Legit, Final Fantasy XIII-2 is one of the most visible Infinite speed verses ever.

The Void Beyond is:

• Repeatedly stated to be outside of time. This allows people who travel it to travel to any era in history.
• Bringing part of it into the main universe nullifies the concept of time and causes multiple eras to bleed together.
• It is acknowledged that questions like "how long has this object been here?" has little meaning in the Void Beyond.
• The battle between Lightning and Caius in the Void Beyond, for them, lasts an eternity, but not for everyone else.
• Events happen in twisted order. Lightning at one point meets Noel, but then ends up in a place where they have yet to meet.
• The inhabitants of the Void Beyond, the Rift Beasts, even when inside the material universe, are stated to exist outside of time, allowing them to manifest in multiple eras simultaneously.
• Precognitive/clairvoyant powers have no use in this place, because there is no future to sense.
• Gogmagog occasionally meets his past self inside the Void Beyond, as his timeline is no longer linear.

Obviously I'm not saying every verse needs to be this specific, but it's clear how much emphasis the game is putting on the Void Beyond being timeless. There is a very visible divide between this and something like the World of Void being stated once to be timeless.

This is an example of a verse that qualifies for Infinite speed no matter how reasonably strict you get.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Everlasting is correct. FFXIII and Digimon are two clear examples that timeless realities ca give speed values, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Kepekley23]

I definitely agree that existing inside a void that is consistently referred to as timeless is an Infinite Speed feat.

But, playing Devil's Advocate, if we take what Matt is saying at face value, pretty much nobody will qualify. He said it himself; taking a trip on a timeless void = \ = Infinite speed. Taking a trip on a 1-A void = \ = Immeasurable.

 

[DodoNova2]

second question, a place with Infinite Void, time does not flow and the time, direction and distance concept does not exist is enough for Infinite speed? (In my case it's an Outlier but I would like to know)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because it's true, 90% of the time? Taking a trip in a timeless void is not exactly a feat. Specially if you are just a dude from a world with time taking a trip outside of it.

I strongly disagree with your argument that "If your standards are applied, nothing will qualify!". Because Digimon and FFXIII both do, regardless of being strict or not.

Predating the creation / birth of time would also be Infinite.

Other than that, existing in a timeless void ca derive speed results if it is like Final Fantasy or Digimon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

second question, a place with Infinite Void, time does not flow and the time, direction and distance concept does not exist is enough for Infinite speed? (In my case it's an Outlier but I would like to know)

Can you be a bit more specific? If they explain it like that, I'm inclined to say yes.

 

[DMB_1]

So, in conclusion?

 

[Sera_EX]

Uh...there are plenty of other examples of infinite speed other than void feats.

 

[Sera_EX]

second question, a place with Infinite Void, time does not flow and the time, direction and distance concept does not exist is enough for Infinite speed? (In my case it's an Outlier but I would like to know)

No distance = immeasurable.

 

[Kepekley23]

If taking a trip on a timeless void is not a feat, then absolutely nobody is allowed to scale to Infinite Speed based off of a void feat. You even said it yourself by comparing the DC Angels who consistently take a trip on a place that is beyond time.

The entire point of bringing up Marvel, DC and other series was to prove that a timeless void feat is not an Infinite Speed feat. Therefore, any series which operates via places beyond time is getting downgraded, going by your logic.

The consistency of the statements doesn't matter, because we're already debating with the assumption of DBH's Demon Realm being a true timeless void. You brought up those examples to say that traveling on a void = \ = Infinite Speed. Therefore, all series with void feats get downgraded with your standards, no matter how consistent.

 

[Kepekley23]

Ignoring the contradictions I pointed out, if we assume that moving in a consistently timeless void equals Infinite Speed, I'm still in agreement with this upgrade.

If we're going to revise all void profiles, then it's whatever.

 

[DodoNova2]

@Matt Well the only person born and live in this place is the daughter of Chronos and has the objective of supervising space time, she does it in an infinite place between space and time where the Concept of Time / Distance / Direction does not exist (it is literally described like this)

@Sera Really?

 

[Sera_EX]

No. If the void feat is expanded upon like FF and Digi then people can scale.

 

[Kepekley23]

Uh...there are plenty of other examples of infinite speed other than void feats.

I was talking void-related profiles only.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To add on. I should note that in Digimon, everyone who enters the Dark Area is not automatically Infinite, neither is everyone who fights one from the Dark Area. Agunimo is the perfect example. Aside from the fight being an outlier, the first thing he did on screen was fight Cerberumon, the literal guard dog of the Dark Area and even got BFR'd there by him. Yet despite these two feats, he is still not Infinite Speed. So things like this should be kept in mind as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You're missing a major point in my argument. Trips to voids without time aren't infinite speed if this is the only argument you have for it.

Even beyond that, while over 90% of Void Feats are utterly meaningless in relation to speed, sometimes you get verses which are very specific and detailed about it, like FFXIII and Digimon.

I referred to Vertigo Angels, who can move in a 1-A void, to show that the idea of "He moved in timeless void" earning an automatic infinite speed rating is dumb.

No, the point of me bringing up Vertigo Comics and TES and Warhammer is to show that it is not an automatic feat like you suggest it is. 90% of the time it is not, and we need to recognize this. There are exceptions yes, but they are not the norm.

The consistency absolutely matters. It's how we can learn what "Timeless" truly entails in the verse. If there are no statements beyond "This place has no time" being thrown three times, then there's no conclusion to be had, and the assumption that it earns Infinite Speed to everyone inside there is hasty and baseless.

Your interpretation of my standards / arguments is incorrect.

 

[Sera_EX]

As unfortunate as that is, it's to be expected with such a high speed value.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Even beyond that, while over 90% of Void Feats are utterly meaningless in relation to speed, sometimes you get verses which are very specific and detailed about it, like FFXIII and Digimon.

Being specific and detailed is irrelevant if we're going to say Void feats are invalid.

> The consistency absolutely matters. It's how we can learn what "Timeless" truly entails in the verse. If there are no statements beyond "This place has no time" being thrown three times, then there's no conclusion to be had, and the assumption that it earns Infinite Speed to everyone inside there is hasty and baseless.

And you misinterpreted what I said.

The consistency doesn't matter, if you're going to enter a debate already assuming the void in question is truly timeless, even if it's not. The whole point of bringing up Vertigo was to show that traveling on a place that is beyond time, even if it's consistently described as such, is worthless.

Your suggestions don't allow any void feat in.

 

[Antvasima]

I would just like to say that I appreciate that everybody are discussing this in a calm and reasonable manner now.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I knew a good night's rest would work Ant

 

[Yumi-tan]

Why people keep bringing up Digimon? Digimon have blog after blog explaining statsitic and speed. Dragonball don't have that. Just upgrade after upgrade or likewise downgrade with no official evaluation or analysis other than baseless assumption, regardless of intent.

Digimon =/= Dragonball in how the verses are evaluated on wiki.

 

[DodoNova2]

I would just like to say that I appreciate that everybody are discussing this in a calm and reasonable manner now.

I do not think the discussion is aggressive, I find it even calm and civil

 

[Kepekley23]

No. If the void feat is expanded upon like FF and Digi then people can scale.

Uh, there is no difference between a void that is expanded upon and a void that is not, because you're entering the debate assuming both voids are truly timeless, regardless of consistency.

Both you and Matt are debating with the assumption the Demon Realm in Heroes is a true, actual timeless void, which is why you went through the trouble of digging up exmples where timeless voids supposedly don't entail Infinite Speed.

You guys simply don't see the contradiction that makes the whole standard unusable or at least demands every single void feat to be ditched. No exceptions.

 

[Sera_EX]

He just said that, darlin. He appreciates that we are getting along.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Kep

You missed my point yet again. I never said that they are automatically, completely, absolutely invalid. They are invalid like 90% of the time, and should be assumed to be invalid until proven otherwise.

You know Burden of Proof? Right? It's the verse's job to prove that "Timeless void" actually entails anything, rather than what we do right now of automatically assuming it does until proven otherwise.

This is what my argument entails. Stopping this thing of automatically assuming it earns a speed rating. Because it doesn't.

The consistency absolutely matters, as does the level of detail. You misinterpreted the starting premise of my argument and your response focused from there.

The point of bringing up Vertigo is to show that moving in voids shouldn't automatically earn you Infinite Speed, because we don't do that for any other feat of moving in non-standard space.

This isn't a hard concept. It's what we do for the rest of the wiki with all speed ratings in all dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have seen enough regular Marvel and DC characters move in timeless voids (usually after either escaping the universe or multiverse, or after surviving their destruction) to be suspicious about such feats in general.

 

[Sera_EX]

Anyway, I have seen enough regular Marvel and DC characters move in timeless voids (usually after either escaping the universe or multiverse, or after surviving their destruction) to be suspicious about such feats in general.

I agree 110% Especially when I'm reading a lot of DC comics lately to improve on the outdated profiles we have.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Uh, there is no difference between a void that is expanded upon and a void that is not"

There absolutely is. One actually means something. The other doesn't.

"because you're entering the debate assuming both voids are truly timeless, regardless of consistency."

And this assumption is inherently invalid. We need to enter the debate assuming they aren't, until proven wrong.

"Both you and Matt are debating with the assumption the Demon Realm in Heroes is a true, actual timeless void"

No. I assumed from the start it wasn't. Only after over 600 posts of insistence, with no real proof of it being timeless meaning anything beyond three scans, I showed that even if it was a timeless void it wouldn't mean anything until proven otherwise.

"You guys simply don't see the contradiction that makes the whole standard unusable or at least demands every single void feat to be ditched. No exceptions."

No, it's you that are being unable to look at the issue from a more nuanced, gray approach. It's not a matter of "Is", or "Isn't". The issue here lies with "When".

Timeless voids are meaningless until proven otherwise. This is my standard.

Another example of my point? Yüki Terumi from BlazBlue spent his story mode inside the Boundary, which is outside of time and the Murakumo Units were created to travel the Boundary.

Doesn't mean BlazBlue is now Infinite. One need only look at every single other speed feat in the verse, and of Terumi himself to see that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dragonball don't have that. Just upgrade after upgrade or likewise downgrade with no official evaluation or analysis other than baseless assumption, regardless of intent.
Digimon =/= Dragonball in how the verses are evaluated on wiki.

This is something I strongly agree with. Dragon Ball is one of the most lazily treated verses on the whole wiki, particularly due to how big it is entails in a lack of patiance of the community. See when Dragon Ball Super was airing, with numerous threads every week.