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Make the staff thread.
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Infinite Speed Guidelines
- Thread starter Dragonmasterxyz
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- speed
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I... genuinely don't. In fact I cannot even understand how "Moving in a place without time" = Immeasurable, even more so than Infinite.
I'm sorry Sera.
I'm sorry Sera.
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Because the original thread did not say "without time" it said "outside the flow of time". Those are completely different things so if it IS timeless and not beyond the flow of time, the OP was blatantly wrong and should have been edited.
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"outside the flow of time" can mean a lot of things, depending on the context. I feel it is less reliable than "timeless", honestly.
More often than not it can just mean that time doesn't flow there, so people could spend 1,000,000,000 years there and not a second would have passed outside it.
More often than not it can just mean that time doesn't flow there, so people could spend 1,000,000,000 years there and not a second would have passed outside it.
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^ No, it's outright stated time isn't part of the Demon Realm
@Sera
We currently consider timeless feats as Infinite. That's something you'll have to sort out in the new thread.
@Sera
We currently consider timeless feats as Infinite. That's something you'll have to sort out in the new thread.
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Why would it be Immeasurable?
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That's only one statement. It is also apart from time itself (not just uts flow) and history. It's immeasurable although there aren't any feats. If someone moves backwards and forwards in time by moving, they are moving against/outside/beyond the flow of time. That's beyond infinite speed. It's the same with moving a realm out the flow of time and its history. Maybe I should diagram it?
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Sure, but that doesn't scale to anything but the time travel itself? The Delorean can be argued to have Immeasurable speed, but it can't reach it through anything but moving through time itself.
Boats in The Elder Scrolls have Immeasurable speed, if you want to go by this logic. They obviously don't, though, they are just sailing through a medium that enables time travel (The ocean).
Boats in The Elder Scrolls have Immeasurable speed, if you want to go by this logic. They obviously don't, though, they are just sailing through a medium that enables time travel (The ocean).
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I kinda have to agree that we aren't consistent on whether timeless realm means Immeasurable or Infinite.
Digimon profiles consider it an Infinite feat, while To Aru profiles consider it Immeasurable. Both were accepted. The list goes on.
Digimon profiles consider it an Infinite feat, while To Aru profiles consider it Immeasurable. Both were accepted. The list goes on.
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I think it means neither, Infinite at most. Immeasurable should be for beings which are explictely beyond the bounds of space-time themselves, regardless of which realm there are in.
Speaking of that, there are numerous entities in fiction which upon entering realities with different physical laws than their own, become bound by it and subject to things like Space and Time.
See any 40K daemon for that matter. When they enter the Materium they become bound by space, time and physics, and are weakened as a result. The assumption that any being that can exist in a timeless dimension would retain their "timelessness" outside of it is frankly baseless.
It's why we don't rank every single SMT Demon as Infinite / Immeasurable because of the nature of the Expanse. Only the Tier 2 ones who retain this property outside of it.
Speaking of that, there are numerous entities in fiction which upon entering realities with different physical laws than their own, become bound by it and subject to things like Space and Time.
See any 40K daemon for that matter. When they enter the Materium they become bound by space, time and physics, and are weakened as a result. The assumption that any being that can exist in a timeless dimension would retain their "timelessness" outside of it is frankly baseless.
It's why we don't rank every single SMT Demon as Infinite / Immeasurable because of the nature of the Expanse. Only the Tier 2 ones who retain this property outside of it.
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Regardless, I disagree with Immeasurable and believe Infinite fits the bill better.
The way fiction treats timeless realms is more akin to a realm where time is irrelevant and stands still.
The way fiction treats timeless realms is more akin to a realm where time is irrelevant and stands still.
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@Ant
I think we can apply this, then discuss our standards in the staff forum to see if it sticks or not.
I think we can apply this, then discuss our standards in the staff forum to see if it sticks or not.
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The realm or the people? Important distinction. If a character is a being beyond space and time, then sure.
If the realm? I don't agree.
If the realm? I don't agree.
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@Kepekley
Nope. It's apart from history and time too. Time and the time flow, the flow of time and its history. That's not suggesting zero time, it's suggesting beyond linear time which is literally the defintion of immeasurable.
Nope. It's apart from history and time too. Time and the time flow, the flow of time and its history. That's not suggesting zero time, it's suggesting beyond linear time which is literally the defintion of immeasurable.
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Also. Why is "Timeless Void" a valid argument when characters can move in 1-A voids without being Irrelevant or Immeasurable or even Infinite in speed?
Seriously. Every Vertigo Comics Angel Can move in the Void beyond creation, and they are not Infinite in speed. In Lovecraft your soul can move in the Void beyond dimensional space through astral projection (The narrator of Hypnos does it), and this doesn't scale to anything.
You don't need to have Irrelevant speed to do it. You just need to be able to switch between all axis of movement.
Seriously. Every Vertigo Comics Angel Can move in the Void beyond creation, and they are not Infinite in speed. In Lovecraft your soul can move in the Void beyond dimensional space through astral projection (The narrator of Hypnos does it), and this doesn't scale to anything.
You don't need to have Irrelevant speed to do it. You just need to be able to switch between all axis of movement.
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To Aru egyptian gods like Nephthys are Immeasurable for existing and living in a dimension where the concepts of time and distance don't apply.
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If they move in these voids, it is an Infinite feat. The difference is that you have to know when it is an outlier or not.
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I honestly think that voids shouldn't be used for Infinite Speed feat at this point. It is baseless, and it is no different than thinking that because a being exists in Higher-Dimensional or Dimensionless space, they are automatically 1-C or 1-A.
Between "Let's give people Infinite Speed based on very loose and ever-changing statements" and "Not at all", I feel the later is at the very least more consistent with how we treat every single other "Moving in a non-standard space" feat.
Between "Let's give people Infinite Speed based on very loose and ever-changing statements" and "Not at all", I feel the later is at the very least more consistent with how we treat every single other "Moving in a non-standard space" feat.
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However, this is not me saying that Infinite or Immeasurable speed doesn't exist, or isn't possible. Digimon would still apply to it.
And any being who is stated to be beyond space-and-time and is a higher-dimensional entity would be Immeasurable, too.
And any being who is stated to be beyond space-and-time and is a higher-dimensional entity would be Immeasurable, too.
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That will lead to a wiki-wide revision, then.
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When you were here last for the part 1 and there's already a part 3....
Infinite speed is instant travel or being able to move when time = 0, or stopped.
Immeasurable is beyond time where time is undefined or DNE,which is why we should have immeasurable god-tiers in DBS because Vados clearly stated Jiren transcended time itself, but this sounds more like immeasurable.
Infinite speed is instant travel or being able to move when time = 0, or stopped.
Immeasurable is beyond time where time is undefined or DNE,
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Assuming it happens, To Aru, Digimon and several other series will be downgraded.
1. To Aru is based off of a world where time and distance don't exist.
2. Digimon is both based off of the timeless Dark Area and the Royal Knights, who take daily trips through layers beyond time.
1. To Aru is based off of a world where time and distance don't exist.
2. Digimon is both based off of the timeless Dark Area and the Royal Knights, who take daily trips through layers beyond time.
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This is what Ever told me:
I feel like the requirements for Infinite should just be:
"Naturally inhabits a void, which is shown to have timeless properties"
Like there's a difference between the World of Void being stated to lack time once and everything XIII-2 does to emphasize that the Void Beyond is timeless.
I feel like the requirements for Infinite should just be:
"Naturally inhabits a void, which is shown to have timeless properties"
Like there's a difference between the World of Void being stated to lack time once and everything XIII-2 does to emphasize that the Void Beyond is timeless.
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Uh, if it's agreed that the void is timeless regardless of how in depth it goes to prove it, there's no difference.
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Like... This should never be a valid reason. And there's like... 50 profiles with Infinite Speed. Digimon is the verse that has the most, and they are still valid.Kepekley23 said:
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...Valid reason for what?
Digimon and To Aru are getting affected if what you said goes through, actually. It is based off of the Royal Knights and the Dark Area.
Digimon and To Aru are getting affected if what you said goes through, actually. It is based off of the Royal Knights and the Dark Area.
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Existing before time was even created, and existence itself was born is valid.
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- Thread starter
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To expand on this whole "Proof of Timeless". This timeless stuff should not be given to realms in which clearly has time, like the WoV where there is a blatant contradiction with statements and actions. I would say that a void needs various points of evidence that consistently say that a vois is timeless. Let us take the Digi-Hell for example. The Dark Area is not only stated to be nothingness and to lack time, but we even have visual proof of this. There should simply be a requirement of consistency imho. That's all I ask for honestly. One or two void statements should not immediately upgrade one to Infinite Speed.
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