Immeasurable speed sailor moon ?

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

That, thread never finished and it was before the changes.

now are you going to engaged with the evidence or are you going to throw more straw mans around.

And? I can just straight up call it a form of time travel ability like sailor cosmos did. Not to mention she carried diamond with her. Or do you expect people to give doraemon immeasurable speed because his time machine flies through time? Also why would Naoko make this character infinitely fast, and leave all characters in the later arcs with finite speed?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

And? I can just straight up call it a form of time travel ability like sailor cosmos did. Not to mention she carried diamond with her. Or do you expect people to give doraemon immeasurable speed because his time machine flies through time?

so essentially, your goal here is to not find truth or analyze the feats, its just to downgrade the verse at any means necessary?

physically flying through time is the same as using a time machine now? Amazing. This is very unserious.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

so essentially, your goal here is to not find truth or analyze the feats, its just to downgrade the verse at any means necessary?

physically flying through time is the same as using a time machine now? Amazing. This is very unserious.

No. This wikia IS strict when it comes to infinite speeds and up. And considering the Anti feats Sailor Moon has, well, and the multiple alternate explanations available for their speed feats since the manga never really made anything clear , you get the idea.

You keep claiming that they "physically flew through time", aka move so fast that infinitely fast entities look frozen. And you fail to show any feats of character moving in even infinite speed in the later arcs where they should be far more powerful and faster, with the characters having no feat of being infinitely fast. Strange.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

post the anti-feats then?

 

[Vietthai96]

Let's end this then:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/1bffd62a45110b9ed2450102d8da02ce/49860aa1e2712358-c7/s640x960/06ab9e805ccc26842f251eb40921a0aa682b2870.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d2e4de4fbeb32f20073d32ab5ade1a42/49860aa1e2712358-55/s640x960/a1f914ae3f6f502f8ed9fbde639ffa13a5c1258f.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/5998fa2e8089aaeca28751286a0d24aa/49860aa1e2712358-e9/s640x960/af0a64dfda6bf04a283a12666b8f1b26a83249c0.png

Black Lady flies from Planet Nemesis, a place within the main universe, to wiseman's domain which is outside the universe. This is her physically moving. This is also her being able to to physically travel to places that require time travel to gain access to.

A legit physical infinite speed feat, that can also be a immeasurable speed.

.................the third picture, the edge of space-time. Another infinite universe but somehow still have an edge again????

Anyway, i'm going to sleep, return later

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

post the anti-feats then?

I believe i already posted, but i will so again.

Sailor Moon (Manga)

I am the Pretty Guardian who Fights for Love and for Justice. I am Sailor Moon! And now In the name of the moon, I will punish you!Sailor Moon's introduction Usagi Tsukino (月野 うさぎ, Tsukino Usagi) is the Sailor Guardian of love and justice: Sailor Moon (セーラームーン, Seeraa Muun). She is the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Remember this? Well,

• Chibi-Chibi sent a distress signal from the center of the galaxy to Earth and Eternal Chibi-Moon, the Senshi apprentice, along with her senshi arrived at the center of the galaxy to help almost instantly. 1 2 Notice how they have registered the exact location of their enemies and are launching their attack towards them before even landing showing clear awareness of their surroundings midflight
• Eternal Sailor Moon was fast enough to fly galactic distances in moments. 1 2 3 4 And yes, it is flight not teleportation. They explicitly say "fly" in both English and Japanese, they talk about the dangers of not landing safely there and so on.[35]
• It also scared Pharaoh 90, a chaos-spawn capable of warping spacetime all the way from a "very distant galaxy" and moved a galaxy at mftl speeds.

Hotaru Travels to Pluto

vsbattles.fandom.com

I can keep throwing more feats. And of course, sailor moon crystal is there, the anime that is far closer to the manga then the 1990's anime , which explicitly lacks any infinite speed shit.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You know once you’ve reached the argument of, “the author never intended their characters to be that strong” you’ve run out of things to say.

.................the third picture, the edge of space-time. Another infinite universe but somehow still have an edge again????

Anyway, i'm going to sleep, return later

it doesn’t matter. Wisemans domain is outside the infinite universe and needs time traveling to get to, its size doesn’t negate feat, no need for the, if a universe is infinite can it have an edge, because that includes everything from DC to sailor moon, to Dragon ball

 

[Antvasima]

Before you pull out "Sailor moon wasn't high 3-A at that time" let me remind you that the usage of high 3-A here was just an example. All High 3-A's to destroy a universe must automatically have infinite range for destroying an infinite universe, thus ant was using High 3-A's as an example of characters of infinite range. What Ant was actually trying to say is infinite range=/=infinite speed, ESPECIALLY when the characters in question have shown only finite speeds. Am i right Ant?

Partially, yes. Any character that can blow up an infinite universe or above technically usually logically requires both infinite attack speed and range, but we do not automatically give such statistics to all characters of tier High 3-A and above, given that fiction tends to be inconsistent and illogical in this regard, and we much prefer more explicit speed feats. That is all.

Also, which staff members have helped out in this thread previously, so I know who to send a notification to?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I believe i already posted, but i will so again.

Sailor Moon (Manga)

I am the Pretty Guardian who Fights for Love and for Justice. I am Sailor Moon! And now In the name of the moon, I will punish you!Sailor Moon's introduction Usagi Tsukino (月野 うさぎ, Tsukino Usagi) is the Sailor Guardian of love and justice: Sailor Moon (セーラームーン, Seeraa Muun). She is the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Remember this? Well,

• Chibi-Chibi sent a distress signal from the center of the galaxy to Earth and Eternal Chibi-Moon, the Senshi apprentice, along with her senshi arrived at the center of the galaxy to help almost instantly. 1 2 Notice how they have registered the exact location of their enemies and are launching their attack towards them before even landing showing clear awareness of their surroundings midflight
• Eternal Sailor Moon was fast enough to fly galactic distances in moments. 1 2 3 4 And yes, it is flight not teleportation. They explicitly say "fly" in both English and Japanese, they talk about the dangers of not landing safely there and so on.[35]
• It also scared Pharaoh 90, a chaos-spawn capable of warping spacetime all the way from a "very distant galaxy" and moved a galaxy at mftl speeds.

Hotaru Travels to Pluto

vsbattles.fandom.com

I can keep throwing more feats. And of course, sailor moon crystal is there, the anime that is far closer to the manga then the 1990's anime , which explicitly lacks any infinite speed shit.

those aren’t antifeats

Point 1 and 2: You have Characters moving from point A to point B. That’s not an antifeat. Especially when they literally move instantaneously. One panel.

point 3: is out dated. The Tau star system isn’t a remote galaxy, its another universe

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

those aren’t antifeats

Point 1 and 2: You have Characters moving from point A to point B. That’s not an antifeat

point 3: is out dated. The Tau star system isn’t a remote galaxy, its another universe

"Point 1 and 2: You have Characters moving from point A to point B. That’s not an antifeat"
And nothing implies they do it instantly. Also, this

Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

"Point 1 and 2: You have Characters moving from point A to point B. That’s not an antifeat"
And nothing implies they do it instantly.

they literally move in one panel.
An anti-feat would be Sailor moon taking 2 hours to fly to center of the galaxy from earth, instead you have her moving in one panel.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, which staff members have helped out in this thread previously, so I know who to send a notification to?

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

they literally move in one panel.
An anti-feat would be Sailor moon taking 2 hours to fly to center of the galaxy from earth, instead you have her moving in one panel.

Ok, i get it. Because they are shown to move in one panel they do it in zero second. Let's just ignore galaxia literally taking time to destroy planets and arrive at the solar system.

Partially, yes. Any character that can blow up an infinite universe or above technically usually logically requires both infinite attack speed and range, but we do not automatically give such statistics to all characters of tier High 3-A and above, given that fiction tends to be inconsistent and illogical in this regard, and we much prefer more explicit speed feats. That is all.

Also, which staff members have helped out in this thread previously, so I know who to send a notification to?

The staff are darkdragonmedeus, confluctor, somebodydata.....i think there was another person not interested in debating.

By the way , Ant, The so called INFINITE universe of sailor moon apparently has an "edge" or an "end" depending on the scans.

Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

https://64.media.tumblr.com/5998fa2e8089aaeca28751286a0d24aa/49860aa1e2712358-e9/s640x960/af0a64dfda6bf04a283a12666b8f1b26a83249c0.png

edge
/ɛdʒ/
Learn to pronounce
See definitions in:
All

Geometry

Needlework

Sports · informal
noun

1. 1.
   the outside limit of an object, area, or surface.
   "a willow tree at the water's edge"
   
   
   

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Can each of you summarise/explain what our staff need to evaluate here in easy to understand manners please? After that I can call for them.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Thank you. Can each of you summarise/explain what our staff need to evaluate here in easy to understand manners please? After that I can call for them.

Can you please spare me a bit of time? I will get all the arguments summarized in a bit. It is night time now here so going to sleep.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I’ll wait till ultra posts his. He is the one who started the thread, so my argument would essentially be a rebuttal to the removal.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you please spare me a bit of time? I will get all the arguments summarized in a bit. It is night time now here so going to sleep.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Okay. No problem.

Alright, i believe i have gathered almost all the required points. I will wait for you both to be online.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Since Ant appears to be online, i shall just leave this here.

Part 1:

Arguments Against Infinite speeds
Ant, i won't bring up the first two arguments of "lighting up space-time" because i assume you have already decided them to be infinite range rather then infinite speed. So i will just summarize the arguments against the latest argument for infinite speed, validity of infinite speed , and finally the anti feats.
1.Arguments against Black lady
Quoting from the speed page
Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed. However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case.
So our own pages acknowledge that movement across time and space alone is NOT an immeasurable speed unless it is explicitly stated that it is done by sheer speed alone. Did the black lady do it by sheer speed? Was it stated so? NO. IT wasn't really elaborated whether she did it by speed or by time travel, and it is a bit hard to grasp because it is a manga.
And Heck, the chibi moon page we have already considers it as a form of time travel, considering prince Diamond was taken with her.

Sailor Chibi Moon (manga)​

Chibiusa Tsukino, also known as "Princess Small Lady Serenity" is the daughter of the future Usagi (Neo Queen Serenity) and Mamoru (King Endymion). She first appears in the Black Moon Arc/Sailor Moon R and is revealed to have come from the future Silver Millennium. She is over 900 years old but...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• -: With the Power of the Black Crystal, she can travel through space and time. She used this to the end of space-time

And funnily, the anime of sailor moon crystal, which is based on the manga, agrees with it since she pretty much goes "**** it" and yeets diamond's ass into a portal. Jokes aside, she clearly uses a portal to transport herself and diamond .

Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23 English Dubbed Watch Online - Sailor Moon Episodes​

Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23 English Dubbed Dubbed Episodes List Next Episode Previous Episode Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23 Dubbed, Watch Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal English Dubbed Episode 23 Online, Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23...

ww1.sailormoonepisodes.com

if that does not work use this

Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23 - AnimeBee

Watch Sailor Moon Crystal Anime Episode 23 English Subbed on AnimeBee. Watch now your favorite ********* Sailor Moon Crystal *********

animebee.to

And yes, it is canon and closer to the original manga then the 1990 anime.

Sailor Moon Crystal - Wikipedia​

en.wikipedia.org
Sailor Moon Crystal, known in Japan as Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal 美少女戦士セーラームーンCrystalクリスタル, : Bishōjo Senshi Sērā Mūn Kurisutaru), is a 2014 adaptation of the series written and illustrated by , produced in commemoration of the original series' 20th anniversary. Produced by and directed by (Seasons 1 and 2) and (Season 3), the series was streamed worldwide on from July 5, 2014, to July 18, 2015. Season 1 and 2's episodes were released twice a month. Instead of remaking the preceding it, Toei Animation produced Crystal as a of Sailor Moon and as a more faithful adaptation of the original manga by omitting much of the original material from the first series.
Not to mention the original japanese says something like " They went to the core of nemesis from it's surface". (Note: I will be using miss dream scanlations, since they are supposed to be "faithful" translation of the original japanese manga. )
https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/014.jpg

Sailor Moon Scanlations – Miss Dream​

Scanlations for Sailor Moon, Codename: Sailor V, and more all available for download! Check us out for the biggest Sailor Moon scanlation collection online!

missdream.org

This is further elaborated, albeit differently in the manga or crystal. None of them implies infinite speed.

Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman (episode)​

This page is for the twenty-third episode of Sailor Moon Crystal. For the twenty-third chapter of the manga, please see Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman. "Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman" is the 23rd episode of Sailor Moon Crystal and the 10th episode of the 2nd season. It faired in Japan on...

sailormoon.fandom.com
She takes them into a pocket of warp space created by the Malefic Black Crystal's negative energy, and controlled by , at the center of which is Wiseman's hidden castle.
(This is done by portal creation.)

Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman​

This page is for the twenty-third chapter of the manga series. For the twenty-third episode of Sailor Moon Crystal, please see Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman (episode). "Act 23 Convert Maneuvers - Wiseman" is the 23rd chapter of the Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon manga series and the 10th chapter...

sailormoon.fandom.com
Meanwhile, Prince Demande and Saphir awaken beneath and are greeted by a mysterious woman, who bears the Black Moon symbol on her forehead. She takes them to Wiseman's castle, which lies deeper on Nemesis itself.
Extras:
And they do have the ability to travel freely.
https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/021.jpg
It isn't impossible to reach. Chibiusa managed to reach there by herself.

Screenshot​

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

Not to mention the original scans imply they simply head deeper into nemesis rather then fly through space time of any sort

Screenshot​

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Part 2
2.Arguments for the Universe Being infinite in size

The Universe being infinite itself is contradictory. First of all in the original manga there isn't any mention of it being infinite. IT was said to be just static and unchanging.

Screenshot​

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

To further add to this, it is literally stated to have an "end".

Screenshot​

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

OR an edge if you want to use the new translations.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/5998fa2.../af0a64dfda6bf04a283a12666b8f1b26a83249c0.png

And what is an edge?

The outside limit of an object, area, or surface.

Just a reminder, we use what is directly stated in the media more then supplementary materials and guidebooks .

3.Anti feats

As we know, there are numerous speed feats in sailor moon after that act 23. Being a manga, it is hard to decipher how fast they actually are. But the manga does heavily go out of it's way to imply and leans on extremely fast MFTL speeds rather then outright infinite speeds.

Let me quote the infinite speeds requirements again.

For more information, Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period. They perceive every finite speed character as completely frozen and it takes 0 time to react to any finite speed object or travel finite speed distance. They can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act33/043.jpg

This is far after act 23. Does anything imply here they are moving infinitely fast? Very high ftl speeds perhaps, but infinite is straight up headcanon.

feats of them travellling across galaxy and having to "be careful" about landing.

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act56/005.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act56/006.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act56/007.jpg

More feats of the sailor senshi crossing galactic distances at very high speeds x but x=/=infinite. (You can see the scan where they are shown flying).

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act57/025.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act57/019.jpg

And then these speed calc

Sailor Galaxia flies to another galaxy (Sailor Moon speed calc)​

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sailor Moon Speed Calc​

About time I've done this calc, but the tremendous numbers have been dissuading me. I've often heard people say that Sailors are hundreds to thousands of times FTL. Their true speed is actually much faster than this. Let's take a look: In...

www.fanverse.org

Sailor Moon Speed feats​

topstrongest.fandom.com

Another running feat that is so bad that it straight up denies any infinite speeds (Also after arc ii and sailor moon should be superior to black lady)

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act29/004.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act29/003.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act29/002.jpg

I can keep throwing more, but it has to be short and concise.

Conclusion

We have always been extremely strict regarding immeasurable and infinite speeds. For examples, Anos voldigoad was given infinite speed explicitly because the divine spear bypasses the concept of time and strikes instanteneously. Alovenus and ruphas were directly stated to have infinite speed. So why would a vague feat that leans towards more of a time travel/dimensional travel in later versions give the SM characters infinite speed especially when the manga heavily leans to very high MFTL speeds? Not to mention that the manga panels are too vague to be used: One moment black lady was holding diamond's hand, next panel she was flying with them in the warped space. It could also be she warped them into the space, and sailor moon crystal explicitly uses a portal.
Anyways Ant, i will let you judge.
I would now request the infinite speed supporters summarize their arguments.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

NOTE: I had to delete some of the images in the quotes to allow myself to post.

Ant, i won't bring up the first two arguments of "lighting up space-time" because i assume you have already decided them to be infinite range rather then infinite speed. So i will just summarize the arguments against the latest argument for infinite speed, validity of infinite speed , and finally the anti feats.

You're ignoring all the other people and mods who agree that it is infinite speed. Ant, only gave the example that you don't gain infinite speed from destroying infinite spaces. This is not a destructive feat. You can't ignore the speed of this attack and just say it's only range. That's not how it works.

What's funny enough is that you started this blog by using the screwattack blog. The screw attack bases Sailor Moon's speed off of this same feat. The only difference is that they didn't have the new translation that confirms the verse as infinite. Why is it that when the verse was considered finite, you were fine with the feat being used as speed and not just range, but now that it's confirmed infinite, suddenly the speed feat can't be used?

1.Arguments against Black lady
Quoting from the speed page
Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed. However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case.
So our own pages acknowledge that movement across time and space alone is NOT an immeasurable speed unless it is explicitly stated that it is done by sheer speed alone. Did the black lady do it by sheer speed? Was it stated so? NO. IT wasn't really elaborated whether she did it by speed or by time travel, and it is a bit hard to grasp because it is a manga.

You need to re-read the page. The page says, "Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed"

Black Lady is able to casually roam across linear time and able to physically enter the rift, a place where people can only enter through time travel.

"However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates."

There is no scan or page that says black lady feat was done through a ftl mechanic or that one exists. You would have to prove that, which you haven't.

Your argument is that because it wasn't stated outright that it was done in sheer speed therefore it does not apply. That is not a requirement. Sailor Moon doesn't have a narrator that explains everything that's happening on screen like shounen and some comics have. We go by what's depicted on the screen. It's completely ridiculous to deny a verse it's on screen seen abilities because it doesn't hand hold the reader.

We see Black Lady physically fly to a place that can only be reached through time travel. That's what's on paper. She didn't use the time key or teleport, as previously established methods of time travel.

And Heck, the chibi moon page we have already considers it as a form of time travel, considering prince Diamond was taken with her.

Sailor Chibi Moon (manga)​

Chibiusa Tsukino, also known as "Princess Small Lady Serenity" is the daughter of the future Usagi (Neo Queen Serenity) and Mamoru (King Endymion). She first appears in the Black Moon Arc/Sailor Moon R and is revealed to have come from the future Silver Millennium. She is over 900 years old but...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• -: With the Power of the Black Crystal, she can travel through space and time. She used this to the end of space-time

I don't get why you're bringing up the profiles when you created this thread to change what's on the profiles. This is a non-argument. You're essentially saying, "it's not this because we said it's not this". The profiles also say sailor Sailor Cosmos is immeasurable and yet you created this thread to change that.

And funnily, the anime of sailor moon crystal, which is based on the manga, agrees with it since she pretty much goes "**** it" and yeets diamond's ass into a portal. Jokes aside, she clearly uses a portal to transport herself and diamond .

Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23 English Dubbed Watch Online - Sailor Moon Episodes​

Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23 English Dubbed Dubbed Episodes List Next Episode Previous Episode Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23 Dubbed, Watch Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal English Dubbed Episode 23 Online, Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23...

ww1.sailormoonepisodes.com

if that does not work use this

Sailor Moon Crystal Episode 23 - AnimeBee

Watch Sailor Moon Crystal Anime Episode 23 English Subbed on AnimeBee. Watch now your favorite ********* Sailor Moon Crystal *********

animebee.to

And yes, it is canon and closer to the original manga then the 1990 anime.

Sailor Moon Crystal - Wikipedia​

Sailor Moon Crystal, known in Japan as Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal 美少女戦士セーラームーンCrystalクリスタル, : Bishōjo Senshi Sērā Mūn Kurisutaru), is a 2014 adaptation of the series written and illustrated by , produced in commemoration of the original series' 20th anniversary. Produced by and directed by (Seasons 1 and 2) and (Season 3), the series was streamed worldwide on from July 5, 2014, to July 18, 2015. Season 1 and 2's episodes were released twice a month. Instead of remaking the preceding it, Toei Animation produced Crystal as a of Sailor Moon and as a more faithful adaptation of the original manga by omitting much of the original material from the first series.
Not to mention the original japanese says something like " They went to the core of nemesis from it's surface". (Note: I will be using miss dream scanlations, since they are supposed to be "faithful" translation of the original japanese manga. )
https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/014.jpg

Sailor Moon Scanlations – Miss Dream​

Scanlations for Sailor Moon, Codename: Sailor V, and more all available for download! Check us out for the biggest Sailor Moon scanlation collection online!

missdream.org

This is further elaborated, albeit differently in the manga or crystal. None of them implies infinite speed.

Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman (episode)​

This page is for the twenty-third episode of Sailor Moon Crystal. For the twenty-third chapter of the manga, please see Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman. "Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman" is the 23rd episode of Sailor Moon Crystal and the 10th episode of the 2nd season. It faired in Japan on...
sailormoon.fandom.com
She takes them into a pocket of warp space created by the Malefic Black Crystal's negative energy, and controlled by , at the center of which is Wiseman's hidden castle.
(This is done by portal creation.)

Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman​

This page is for the twenty-third chapter of the manga series. For the twenty-third episode of Sailor Moon Crystal, please see Act 23 Covert Maneuvers - Wiseman (episode). "Act 23 Convert Maneuvers - Wiseman" is the 23rd chapter of the Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon manga series and the 10th chapter...
saiormoon.fandom.com
Meanwhile, Prince Demande and Saphir awaken beneath and are greeted by a mysterious woman, who bears the Black Moon symbol on her forehead. She takes them to Wiseman's castle, which lies deeper on Nemesis itself.

This whole section is moot. Crystal is not a 1 to 1 adaption of the manga. They change certain small details, like having Moon kill Beryl instead of Venus or having wiseman kill demande instead Moon and Tuxedo. Black lady using a portal in the anime is irrelevant because she doesn't use one in the manga.

(Not to mention from a production standpoint, it's cheaper to have Black Lady use a portal in the anime, than animate her flying through space like it is in the manga. Crystal is beloved but we all know that Toei is cheap and doesn't ever give Sailor Moon the budget it deserves but that's another whole rant and thing )

And they do have the ability to travel freely.
https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/021.jpg

I don't understand how this is an anti-feat? The earrings allow them to move freely. This is like saying Hal Jordan isn't really MFTL, because it's his ring that gives him power. This is like saying flash doesn't get immeasurable speed because he does it with the speed force. His profile literally says immeasurable speed with the speed force. All this would say is that Demande and Saphir would get it while having the earings.

It isn't impossible to reach. Chibiusa managed to reach there by herself.

Screenshot​

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

That's not wiseman's domain. In the very next chapter, Wiseman teleports chibi-usa away and Sailor Pluto confirms that something took her to another space.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b9c8545c9668a771192c8269e15beb6e/608f4d427fd960a1-e8/s640x960/f63f21c9ee3d2ce8f8c3b5f1bdc0c2ea20150819.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/0127b657d7d45231edc12232f47e4fc5/608f4d427fd960a1-ab/s640x960/db1355f57777a1e2bebd35eadb52a93c3f70c78f.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/3b411a1ee26b38d8cd1aef75de666d41/608f4d427fd960a1-a0/s640x960/cb10953a158a85270e49dfa8c2495f04ca8350f5.png

Not to mention the original scans imply they simply head deeper into nemesis rather then fly through space time of any sort

Screenshot​

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

This is a bad translation. The scan I posted has Black Lady specifically say that they are not inside Nemesis.

Also, the crystal episode you posted, has saphir ask Black Lady if they're inside nemesis and she says no. You're contradicting yourself here.

2.Arguments for the Universe Being infinite in size

The Universe being infinite itself is contradictory. First of all in the original manga there isn't any mention of it being infinite. IT was said to be just static and unchanging.

Screenshot​

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

To further add to this, it is literally stated to have an "end".

Screenshot​

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

OR an edge if you want to use the new translations.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/5998fa2.../af0a64dfda6bf04a283a12666b8f1b26a83249c0.png

And what is an edge?

The outside limit of an object, area, or surface.

Just a reminder, we use what is directly stated in the media more then supplementary materials and guidebooks .

There are two problems with this argument, first is contextually and second is logically.

1. Ignoring the verse outright says time and space is infinite:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d7c6b130fdf234b281a3da5ce7673511/b5277baea21e1343-18/s540x810/0e1e07d0374eb69dd6f168e8e0241da056eee0c8.png

Wiseman's domain is not in the main universe. It is outside of the universe, and is a rift. I already posted above that rifts have no concept of distance and direction. Even if you want to claim that wiseman's domain is not infinite, the light of sailor moon, would still have to travel through the infinite universe to reach there.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/cce0d5869f57f9d42612743b22bf1a6d/c60600d948182981-b4/s640x960/3c540a5edc7c546cfdfb9c4d2305934b312931fa.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/017d85f9a268efeaa8b73006f2547985/c60600d948182981-91/s640x960/233ef4fd83f352b028e88b1ed0f3ec42905b052b.png

2. Let's say it is the edge, let's not forget that edge is not a definite finite end. Think of the asymptote, a line that goes on infinitely and gets closer and closer to 0. We can say that the asymptote, is at the edge of zero but never reaches. The same logic can apply here but also:

Infinite places having an edge, end or otherside, is very common in ficition. Even verses like DC, have their entire cosmos surrounded by the source wall, a theoretical end to their infinite extra dimensional cosmos. Or Marvel microverses which are entire dimensions and universes inside atoms. These places in fiction are used to convey the message that these places are desolate, or extremely far and other worldly to the reader, that they are simply not just a regular place in space that can be regularly travelled through.

Infinite sets can have ends. A set of all numbers of 1 to 2, would start with 1 and end with two, but still contain and uncountably infinite numbers.

There are many verses that have multiple infinite universes in their multiverse. By using this logic, we would have to claim that those infinite universes aren't really infinite because there would have to be a place where these these universes end and another start. Yet we don't do that because we know fiction allows for the existence of these things.

3.Anti feats

As we know, there are numerous speed feats in sailor moon after that act 23. Being a manga, it is hard to decipher how fast they actually are. But the manga does heavily go out of it's way to imply and leans on extremely fast MFTL speeds rather then outright infinite speeds.

Ignoring that all speed feats happen in one panel or less. No character is ever tagged by slower natural objects like say a bullet or car. The characters never have any travel time that isn't instantaneous for example, taking two hours to fly from area A to area B.

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act33/043.jpg

This is far after act 23. Does anything imply here they are moving infinitely fast? Very high ftl speeds perhaps, but infinite is straight up headcanon.

How is this even an anti-feat? This is chibi-usa running to Hotaru (who is still a civillian) to warn her and also apologize from running away from her before. She's not in a battle.

Also:

1. Chibi-usa doesn't inherit Black Lady's abilities.
2. This is for infinite/immeasurable reactions/( and attack speed for Sailor Moon). Only god tiers such as lambda usagi, Cosmos, Chaos would keep their immeasurable. And perhaps Black Lady and Saphir and Diamond while having their earings equipped.

feats of them travellling across galaxy and having to "be careful" about landing.

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act56/005.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act56/006.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act56/007.jpg

They're literally flying into enemy territory. They of course have to be careful where they land.

Also notice the speed feat happening in one panel again.

More feats of the sailor senshi crossing galactic distances at very high speeds x but x=/=infinite. (You can see the scan where they are shown flying).

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act57/025.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act57/019.jpg

Again. Another scene where they travel via only one panel. Also, make sure everyone note that the first scan happens after the second scan. Chibi-chibi sends a help signal to earth and the girls arrive in the panel right after. The girls move from earth to their location within those few panels on the single page in the second link.

There is no timeframe given except that to the reader it is happening instantaneously in real time.

And then these speed calc

Sailor Galaxia flies to another galaxy (Sailor Moon speed calc)​

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sailor Moon Speed Calc​

About time I've done this calc, but the tremendous numbers have been dissuading me. I've often heard people say that Sailors are hundreds to thousands of times FTL. Their true speed is actually much faster than this. Let's take a look: In...

www.fanverse.org

Sailor Moon Speed feats​

topstrongest.fandom.com

Why are posting speed calcs as anti-feats? That doesn't make sense. Also these were done before the new confirmation that the verse is infinite.

Another running feat that is so bad that it straight up denies any infinite speeds (Also after arc ii and sailor moon should be superior to black lady)

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act29/004.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act29/003.jpg

https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act29/002.jpg

I can keep throwing more, but it has to be short and concise.

1. Again I repeat: This is about infinite/immeasurable reactions and attack speed. The only characters who have immeasurable speed are the godtiers and black lady, death phantom, demande and spahire with the earrings. Why are you arguing that Sailor Moon doesn't have infinite speed when that's not what's being argued for in the first place?
2. Since when is that characters that can move at infinite or immeasurable speed shouldn't be able to run.
3. Since when is it that characters that can move at infinite or immeasureable speed can only move at those speed and can't move any slower.
4. That's of Sailor Uranus and Sailor moon. They're comparable. If they were moving at infinite or immeasurable speed, the scene would still look the same, because they're comparable. This would be like saying two flashes aren't capable of infinite speed or immeasurable speed because they're shown running after each other.
5. The running like the wind is a motif of Sailor Uranus, who is the Soldier of the heavens and the sky. (like how Neptune's motif is ocean)


Here is my conclusion:

The Sailor Moon universe is infinite in both time and space.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d7c6b130fdf234b281a3da5ce7673511/b5277baea21e1343-18/s540x810/0e1e07d0374eb69dd6f168e8e0241da056eee0c8.png

Sailor Moon was able to transcend both time and space AND light up both space and time.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/cce0d5869f57f9d42612743b22bf1a6d/c60600d948182981-b4/s640x960/3c540a5edc7c546cfdfb9c4d2305934b312931fa.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/f604151950f9e722c1b15973c9b4dd70/c60600d948182981-f2/s640x960/36a779db6d63b2932f5445d09219754622f42ec8.png

As well as other places that are outside of the space and time, and are functionally infinite (having no concept of distance or direction, or a flow of time). (This feat was done twice in the series at two different times)

This should give Sailor Moon infinite attack speed, and that should scale to other characters as infinite reaction speeds as they are able to intercept and counter Sailor Moon's attacks with their own and other senshi are able to keep with them too.

Mind you now, other characters like Necrozma, Helios (God of War) have outright infinite speed for the same feats. (necrozma has likely infinite because it is not confirmed for sure if the pokemon verse is infinite).

This is honestly as close book as you can get.

As for immeasurable speed:

Currently, only Lambda Usage, Chaos, and Cosmos have immeasurable speed. This stems from Cosmos being able to move through time without use of the spacetime corridor or space distortions. Sailor Pluto has cosmic awareness over time and space to the point where she was able to know that no beings invaded the universe from any of the uncountable alternate universes or traveled through time. Sailor Pluto was not able to detect Cosmos nor ever suspected her of not being from the universe or present time.

Now I said that this was before the changes of immeasurable speed, if this no longer fits then remove it.

However, there is another new translation:

It was believed with the Miss Dream translation that Black Lady entered Wiseman's domain through planet Nemsis. As I posed above, this is a false translation. Black Lady physically flies from planet Nemesis to Wiseman's domain. This means she past through the infinite universe to enter the outside realms where wiseman domains lies.

Wiseman's domain is a rift that is outside space and time. In order to get to rifts like Corridor of Spacetime door, time travel is needed. Black Lady was able to physically fly and reach these places. She is not shown using teleportation, time key, a time ship, a portal, or anyother methods or abilities.

She also gives Demande and Saphir earrings that will allow them to move "freely" as her. This is akin to giving someone the speedforce in order them for them to move as freely as the flashes.

Black Lady is also able to attack backwards in time.

If this counts for immeasurable, the only these characters would get this speed rating: Death Phantom, Black Lady, Demande and Saphire (with the earings equipped), Chaos, Cosmos, and Lambda usagi.

Death Phantom gets it because he was the one that created Black Lady and gave her all her powers and abilities and physicality. Chaos would get it because he is the source of Death Phantom and his power. Cosmos and Lambda usage would get it for being Chaos's counterpart and battling him equally.

The other characters, would get immeasurable reaction speed, being able to keep up with and counter attacks and defend themselves from attacks by Death Phantom, Black Lady, Demande, and Saphir.

 

[Vietthai96]

1. Ignoring the verse outright says time and space is infinite:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d7c6b13.../0e1e07d0374eb69dd6f168e8e0241da056eee0c8.png

I want to say, is there any original japanese version of this scan

Wiseman's domain is not in the main universe. It is outside of the universe, and is a rift. I already posted above that rifts have no concept of distance and direction. Even if you want to claim that wiseman's domain is not infinite, the light of sailor moon, would still have to travel through the infinite universe to reach there.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/cce0d5869f57f9d42612743b22bf1a6d/c60600d948182981-b4/s640x960/3c540a5edc7c546cfdfb9c4d2305934b312931fa.png https://64.media.tumblr.com/017d85f9a268efeaa8b73006f2547985/c60600d948182981-91/s640x960/233ef4fd83f352b028e88b1ed0f3ec42905b052b.png

1. We don't using light feat, it literally is just range feat
2. No concept of distance or direction mean no more. Unless more extreme context is provided

Infinite places having an edge, end or otherside, is very common in ficition. Even verses like DC, have their entire cosmos surrounded by the source wall, a theoretical end to their infinite extra dimensional cosmos. Or Marvel microverses which are entire dimensions and universes inside atoms. These places in fiction are used to convey the message that these places are desolate, or extremely far and other worldly to the reader, that they are simply not just a regular place in space that can be regularly travelled through.

Nah, we need to prove that the universe actually infinite and still legit have an end. Bring other verse here doesn't mean much. I believe that have far better evidences for infinite compare to Sailor Moon we will only saw 1 statement about spatially infinite and then we have the edge of space-time statement

There is no timeframe given except that to the reader it is happening instantaneously in real time.

No, that not, no given timeframe on manga panel doesn't mean it is instantaneous

Sailor Moon was able to transcend both time and space AND light up both space and time.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/cce0d5869f57f9d42612743b22bf1a6d/c60600d948182981-b4/s640x960/3c540a5edc7c546cfdfb9c4d2305934b312931fa.png https://64.media.tumblr.com/f604151.../36a779db6d63b2932f5445d09219754622f42ec8.png

No no, nothing stated she transcended space-time, you made up these word. And again light up space-time is irrelevant here

Mind you now, other characters like Necrozma, Helios (God of War) have outright infinite speed for the same feats. (necrozma has likely infinite because it is not confirmed for sure if the pokemon verse is infinite).

Necrozma idk, however Helios i said he his light capable of crossing the Underworld which is infinite, and mind you, he scale to his light because he actually move. And iirc GoW Underworld have no statement about it have an edge

In order to get to rifts like Corridor of Spacetime door, time travel is needed

Proof???

Wiseman's domain is a rift that is outside space and time. In order to get to rifts like Corridor of Spacetime door, time travel is needed. Black Lady was able to physically fly and reach these places. She is not shown using teleportation, time key, a time ship, a portal, or anyother methods or abilities.

Also, what???, you don't get Immeasurable with this kind of claim or feats

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

NOTE: I had to delete some of the images in the quotes to allow myself to post.


You're ignoring all the other people and mods who agree that it is infinite speed. Ant, only gave the example that you don't gain infinite speed from destroying infinite spaces. This is not a destructive feat. You can't ignore the speed of this attack and just say it's only range. That's not how it works.

What's funny enough is that you started this blog by using the screwattack blog. The screw attack bases Sailor Moon's speed off of this same feat. The only difference is that they didn't have the new translation that confirms the verse as infinite. Why is it that when the verse was considered finite, you were fine with the feat being used as speed and not just range, but now that it's confirmed infinite, suddenly the speed feat can't be used?

The infinite range is something i did not consider before Vietthat's argument. Which is why i did not bring it up until later. Also, infinite range =/= infinite speeds. What sailor moon did was a feat of infinite range that her light reached Wiseman. IF we go by your logic, every infinite range character would have to be given infinite speeds.

You need to re-read the page. The page says, "Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed"

Black Lady is able to casually roam across linear time and able to physically enter the rift, a place where people can only enter through time travel.

"However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates."

There is no scan or page that says black lady feat was done through a ftl mechanic or that one exists. You would have to prove that, which you haven't.

Your argument is that because it wasn't stated outright that it was done in sheer speed therefore it does not apply. That is not a requirement. Sailor Moon doesn't have a narrator that explains everything that's happening on screen like shounen and some comics have. We go by what's depicted on the screen. It's completely ridiculous to deny a verse it's on screen seen abilities because it doesn't hand hold the reader.

I am not addressing this, since this isn't really doing much expect forcing people to agree that black lady did that via sheer speed while there is literally nothing implying so. You too have failed to prove that she did it by sheer speed and not by another form of time travel.

We see Black Lady physically fly to a place that can only be reached through time travel. That's what's on paper. She didn't use the time key or teleport, as previously established methods of time travel.

I don't get why you're bringing up the profiles when you created this thread to change what's on the profiles. This is a non-argument. You're essentially saying, "it's not this because we said it's not this". The profiles also say sailor Sailor Cosmos is immeasurable and yet you created this thread to change that.

Because the profiles assert the possibility that what black lady used was simply a form of time travel, which was quite accurate.

This whole section is moot. Crystal is not a 1 to 1 adaption of the manga. They change certain small details, like having Moon kill Beryl instead of Venus or having wiseman kill demande instead Moon and Tuxedo. Black lady using a portal in the anime is irrelevant because she doesn't use one in the manga.

(Not to mention from a production standpoint, it's cheaper to have Black Lady use a portal in the anime, than animate her flying through space like it is in the manga. Crystal is beloved but we all know that Toei is cheap and doesn't ever give Sailor Moon the budget it deserves but that's another whole rant and thing )

So in a nutshell, "crystal cannot be used because black lady throws the idea of immeasurable or infinite speed sailor moon out of the window there" while that scene was exactly the 1:1 copy of what happened in manga. The manga does not show anything impressive either. One moment black lady takes his hand, the next moment they are flying in warped space. IT implies more dimensional travel then anything.

I don't understand how this is an anti-feat? The earrings allow them to move freely. This is like saying Hal Jordan isn't really MFTL, because it's his ring that gives him power. This is like saying flash doesn't get immeasurable speed because he does it with the speed force. His profile literally says immeasurable speed with the speed force. All this would say is that Demande and Saphir would get it while having the earings.



That's not wiseman's domain. In the very next chapter, Wiseman teleports chibi-usa away and Sailor Pluto confirms that something took her to another space.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b9c8545c9668a771192c8269e15beb6e/608f4d427fd960a1-e8/s640x960/f63f21c9ee3d2ce8f8c3b5f1bdc0c2ea20150819.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/0127b657d7d45231edc12232f47e4fc5/608f4d427fd960a1-ab/s640x960/db1355f57777a1e2bebd35eadb52a93c3f70c78f.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/3b411a1ee26b38d8cd1aef75de666d41/608f4d427fd960a1-a0/s640x960/cb10953a158a85270e49dfa8c2495f04ca8350f5.png

This is fine.

This is a bad translation. The scan I posted has Black Lady specifically say that they are not inside Nemesis.

Also, the crystal episode you posted, has saphir ask Black Lady if they're inside nemesis and she says no. You're contradicting yourself here.

What do you mean "bad translation"? IS the scan you posted is the originals? I used miss dream's translations which should not be that far off from source material.

There are two problems with this argument, first is contextually and second is logically.

1. Ignoring the verse outright says time and space is infinite:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d7c6b130fdf234b281a3da5ce7673511/b5277baea21e1343-18/s540x810/0e1e07d0374eb69dd6f168e8e0241da056eee0c8.png

Wiseman's domain is not in the main universe. It is outside of the universe, and is a rift. I already posted above that rifts have no concept of distance and direction. Even if you want to claim that wiseman's domain is not infinite, the light of sailor moon, would still have to travel through the infinite universe to reach there.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/cce0d5869f57f9d42612743b22bf1a6d/c60600d948182981-b4/s640x960/3c540a5edc7c546cfdfb9c4d2305934b312931fa.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/017d85f9a268efeaa8b73006f2547985/c60600d948182981-91/s640x960/233ef4fd83f352b028e88b1ed0f3ec42905b052b.png

This is fine.

2. Let's say it is the edge, let's not forget that edge is not a definite finite end. Think of the asymptote, a line that goes on infinitely and gets closer and closer to 0. We can say that the asymptote, is at the edge of zero but never reaches. The same logic can apply here but also:

Infinite places having an edge, end or otherside, is very common in ficition. Even verses like DC, have their entire cosmos surrounded by the source wall, a theoretical end to their infinite extra dimensional cosmos. Or Marvel microverses which are entire dimensions and universes inside atoms. These places in fiction are used to convey the message that these places are desolate, or extremely far and other worldly to the reader, that they are simply not just a regular place in space that can be regularly travelled through.

Infinite sets can have ends. A set of all numbers of 1 to 2, would start with 1 and end with two, but still contain and uncountably infinite numbers.

There are many verses that have multiple infinite universes in their multiverse. By using this logic, we would have to claim that those infinite universes aren't really infinite because there would have to be a place where these these universes end and another start. Yet we don't do that because we know fiction allows for the existence of these things.

Bit vague, but fine.

Ignoring that all speed feats happen in one panel or less. No character is ever tagged by slower natural objects like say a bullet or car. The characters never have any travel time that isn't instantaneous for example, taking two hours to fly from area A to area B.



How is this even an anti-feat? This is chibi-usa running to Hotaru (who is still a civillian) to warn her and also apologize from running away from her before. She's not in a battle.

Also:

1. Chibi-usa doesn't inherit Black Lady's abilities.
2. This is for infinite/immeasurable reactions/( and attack speed for Sailor Moon). Only god tiers such as lambda usagi, Cosmos, Chaos would keep their immeasurable. And perhaps Black Lady and Saphir and Diamond while having their earings equipped.



They're literally flying into enemy territory. They of course have to be careful where they land.

Also notice the speed feat happening in one panel again.



Again. Another scene where they travel via only one panel. Also, make sure everyone note that the first scan happens after the second scan. Chibi-chibi sends a help signal to earth and the girls arrive in the panel right after. The girls move from earth to their location within those few panels on the single page in the second link.

There is no timeframe given except that to the reader it is happening instantaneously in real time.




Why are posting speed calcs as anti-feats? That doesn't make sense. Also these were done before the new confirmation that the verse is infinite.




1. Again I repeat: This is about infinite/immeasurable reactions and attack speed. The only characters who have immeasurable speed are the godtiers and black lady, death phantom, demande and spahire with the earrings. Why are you arguing that Sailor Moon doesn't have infinite speed when that's not what's being argued for in the first place?
2. Since when is that characters that can move at infinite or immeasurable speed shouldn't be able to run.
3. Since when is it that characters that can move at infinite or immeasureable speed can only move at those speed and can't move any slower.
4. That's of Sailor Uranus and Sailor moon. They're comparable. If they were moving at infinite or immeasurable speed, the scene would still look the same, because they're comparable. This would be like saying two flashes aren't capable of infinite speed or immeasurable speed because they're shown running after each other.
5. The running like the wind is a motif of Sailor Uranus, who is the Soldier of the heavens and the sky. (like how Neptune's motif is ocean)

These arguments are doing nothing but an excuse that "because they moved in one panel, it is infinite speed." yet BOTH the anime adaptations which should be much clearer lack any infinite speeds.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Nah, we need to prove that the universe actually infinite and still legit have an end. Bring other verse here doesn't mean much. I believe that have far better evidences for infinite compare to Sailor Moon we will only saw 1 statement about spatially infinite and then we have the edge of space-time statement

Pretty much. DBZ has like at least 3, perhaps 4 or more statements of it being infinite. But because it was stated to have an edge it's infinite claims pretty much got bye bye'ed.

No, that not, no given timeframe on manga panel doesn't mean it is instantaneous

No no, nothing stated she transcended space-time, you made up these word. And again light up space-time is irrelevant here

I think there was a scan where the silver crystal was stated to transcend time and space, although metaphorically perhaps.

 

[Vietthai96]

I think there was a scan where the silver crystal was stated to transcend time and space, although metaphorically perhaps.

So, what translation is true now????

Anyway, i'm going to sleep first......................0.0

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I see someone mention Helios from GoW as example.
To prevent any misunderstanding, Helios is wielder of Primordial Fire which is a magical holy/divine fire which is used by Helios as a UES/UPS. Light beams, blasts all that kind of jazz. So its all combat applicable.

And as for the infinite speed feat, Primordial Fire used by Helios lit up entire Tartarus when it was released, Tartarus is infinite sized realm. We also have Hermes the messenger god blatantly out running Helios Light. So everything is combat applicable speed.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Hermes (God of War)

Hermes is the Greek god of Travelers, Messengers, Thieves, Commerce, Sports, Athletics, and Speed. He is the son of the King of Olympus Zeus and the Pleiades Maia. He is also the father of Ceryx and the messenger of Mt. Olympus. Hermes is shown as being playful and childish. He is greatly...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Hermes profile

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Pretty much. DBZ has like 4 or 5, perhaps more statements of it being infinite. But because it was stated to have an edge it's infinite claims pretty much got bye bye'ed.

It shouldn't byebyed but alas DB always has to suffer.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No no, nothing stated she transcended space-time, you made up these word. And again light up space-time is irrelevant here

You need to stop calling me a liar.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/37f435eec1e581883df3e8211a7e5a4b/c60600d948182981-2a/s640x960/b304c1f52df4c51898b59b9beb5dc7feb5491852.png

Nah, we need to prove that the universe actually infinite and still legit have an end. Bring other verse here doesn't mean much. I believe that have far better evidences for infinite compare to Sailor Moon we will only saw 1 statement about spatially infinite and then we have the edge of space-time statement

perhaps if you read my argument instead of insulting me,

you will know that wiseman's domain called, "edge of space-time" is not inside the infinite universe that Sailor Moon lit up.

The infinite range is something i did not consider before Vietthat's argument. Which is why i did not bring it up until later. Also, infinite range =/= infinite speeds. What sailor moon did was a feat of infinite range that her light reached Wiseman. IF we go by your logic, every infinite range character would have to be given infinite speeds.

Let me ask you a simple question then, how fast was Sailor Moon's light going then?

To prevent any misunderstanding, Helios is wielder of Primordial Fire which is a magical holy/divine fire which is used by Helios as a UES/UPS. Light beams, blasts all that kind of jazz. So its all combat applicable.

This legit, word for word how sailor moon and her crystal works. Now imagine if someone argued that Helios's light doesn't have infinite speed, it just as infinite range. OR that Hermes out running it is an anti-feat or that hermes doesn't have infinite speed because Kratos was chasing after hermes.

I am not addressing this, since this isn't really doing much expect forcing people to agree that black lady did that via sheer speed while there is literally nothing implying so. You too have failed to prove that she did it by sheer speed and not by another form of time travel.

What exactly does sheer speed look like?

What do you mean "bad translation"? IS the scan you posted is the originals? I used miss dream's translations which should not be that far off from source material.

Sometimes miss dream has bad translations. It's correct for the most part, but she gets some details wrong. Both the new version (which i posted) and the anime (you posted), confirm wiseman's domain is not inside nemesis.

These arguments are doing nothing but an excuse that "because they moved in one panel, it is infinite speed." yet BOTH the anime adaptations which should be much clearer lack any infinite speeds.

That's not my argument. My argument is not that because it happened in one panel it's infinite speed. MY argument is that because it happened in one panel, it doesn't rule out infinite speed. One panel can depict, really fast travel, instant travel, infinite speed. If it took multiple pages for characters to move from point A to point B, then that would rule out instant travel and infinite speed.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

for the rest of the day, my responses will be limited as I am away.

 

[Hasty12345]

I still agree with infinite speed, even after seeing the opposing arguments. They make me agree with infinite speed even more so as they, and pardon my rudeness, show me there aren’t any real counter arguments.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This legit, word for word how sailor moon and her crystal works. Now imagine if someone argued that Helios's light doesn't have infinite speed, it just as infinite range. OR that Hermes out running it is an anti-feat or that hermes doesn't have infinite speed because Kratos was chasing after hermes.

Well its impossible for light to be just range, it ignores light travels from point another, if something travels... then it has speed.
Only way light can be exclusively range is if it was summoned in its entirety simultaneously between start and end....which is wierd.

So yeah, you don't assume light is range nilly willy unless you want to yeet all FTL speed feats in fiction.

If Star Crystal light is used for attacks and stuff akin to UES then I don't have problem with anything here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate the following two posts please? Preferably the ones afterwards as well.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-speed-sailor-moon.132629/post-4574298

https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-speed-sailor-moon.132629/post-4574300

 

[Vietthai96]

You need to stop calling me a liar.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/37f435e.../b304c1f52df4c51898b59b9beb5dc7feb5491852.png

Huh, because you not post the scan along with comment line you stated about transcended space-time. Also transcended space-time give nothing about speed anymore

perhaps if you read my argument instead of insulting me,

you will know that wiseman's domain called, "edge of space-time" is not inside the infinite universe that Sailor Moon lit up.

1. How did that is insulting?????
2. What now, i don't understand this part???

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

You need to stop calling me a liar.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/37f435eec1e581883df3e8211a7e5a4b/c60600d948182981-2a/s640x960/b304c1f52df4c51898b59b9beb5dc7feb5491852.png

perhaps if you read my argument instead of insulting me,

Yes, this one was the scan. Anyway, it quite means nothing .

you will know that wiseman's domain called, "edge of space-time" is not inside the infinite universe that Sailor Moon lit up.

So it's another dimension?

Let me ask you a simple question then, how fast was Sailor Moon's light going then?

Logically speaking, it should be infinite. That is, if it really light up the entire universe and not just crossed dimensions. But again, infinite speed is not taken as the same as infinite range because fiction always makes inconsistences . However that is not in my hands, so i will leave it to staff.

What exactly does sheer speed look like?

IT does not "look" like anything. It has to be Elaborated. As you said, narrators in comic books do that, which makes it easier to find immeasurable speeds. Your justifications till now are extremely vague and lack context.

Sometimes miss dream has bad translations. It's correct for the most part, but she gets some details wrong. Both the new version (which i posted) and the anime (you posted), confirm wiseman's domain is not inside nemesis.

But even so, going to a warped dimension is just dimensional travel more then anything.

That's not my argument. My argument is not that because it happened in one panel it's infinite speed. MY argument is that because it happened in one panel, it doesn't rule out infinite speed. One panel can depict, really fast travel, instant travel, infinite speed. If it took multiple pages for characters to move from point A to point B, then that would rule out instant travel and infinite speed.

This is fine. However, it does not imply infinite as well. And if you are using SM crystal which is canon, then yes, it is MFTL at best. Not to mention crystal is thousands of times better then the nightmare that is the first anime.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

I still agree with infinite speed, even after seeing the opposing arguments. They make me agree with infinite speed even more so as they, and pardon my rudeness, show me there aren’t any real counter arguments.

technically there isn't. The manga doesn't really make anything clear, which can be used to exploit infinite speeds.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So it's another dimension?

But even so, going to a warped dimension is just dimensional travel more then anything.

The rifts can only be accessed via time travel. The girls who can teleport to different dimensions couldn't access them without a time key.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Bump

 

[Vietthai96]

The rifts can only be accessed via time travel. The girls who can teleport to different dimensions couldn't access them without a time key.

So, this is practically dimensional travel, nothing more, no crossing infinite distance. Black Lady and Black Moon members have power from Wiseman allow them to travel Wiseman's domain while other using Time Key to travel, this is just dimensional travel, looking back no scan actually stated they travel across the suppose infinite universe

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So, this is practically dimensional travel, nothing more, no crossing infinite distance. Black Lady and Black Moon members have power from Wiseman allow them to travel Wiseman's domain while other using Time Key to travel, this is just dimensional travel, looking back no scan actually stated they travel across the suppose infinite universe

Black lady traveled from planet nemesis to the area physically.