Immeasurable speed removal

[manu_zarri]

We already apply actual theories, denying one because it is theoretical physic stuff is not even an argument. It's not even about enforcing a law but more removing an invention which come from nowhere.

And where did you get that so-called "real description"? I litteraly copy-pasted what was actually said about it not to have an argument like "you're distording the words said"; and it seems to be what you're doing here.

From speed page and Stuff. wait i have another thing.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yuri, I do wanna ask. Even if you DID, somehow, get this accepted... what do we do with the characters that actually meet the requirements for Immeasurable?

 

[Antvasima]

I know that YuriAkuto means well, but I agree with Ultima Reality, PlozAlcachaz, and KingPin0422.

Getting rid of immeasurable speed in its entirety is far too drastic. It is likely sufficient to better clarify our current standards, and apply them so all the profile pages that inaccurately currently have the statistic get it removed.

We should probably close this thread, as it seems to have been thoroughly rejected.

 

[KingPin0422]

I wanted to address Yuri's response to my points, but Ultima already did an excellent job of doing so. Props to him.

And yes, I think it is widely agreed that Immeasurable Speed is here to stay. It could stand to be improved upon, but removing it from the speed scale would solve nothing and, in fact, only make things even worse.

 

[Greenshifter]

: That being, you being able to move through time and space as easily as you would be able to move your hand across three-dimensional space, or something that would produce similar effects: An entity who lives on a higher plane where the whole universe is just a book, for example; you obviously wouldn't be able to apply the speed equation to them if they treat time and space like the numbers of a page they can flip at will. Time Travel is a subset of Immeasurable Speed, not the main thing.

What about someone who uses finite speed to jump out of the book and what if said higher-dimensional character is said to have the same speed limit as the lower dimensional one?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

GG for the thread

 

[StrymULTRA]

This thread in a nutshell:

 

[Ultima_Reality]

What about someone who uses finite speed to jump out of the book and what if said higher-dimensional character is said to have the same speed limit as the lower dimensional one?

For the first question, I don't really know of any examples of a character actually doing that, can you give me one?

As for the second one, I'd say that should be analyzed on a case-by-case basis, but entities who trivialize the spacetime of lower realities being described in mundane terms could very well be a case of the cosmology being relative in nature. For example, The Overvoid from DC is an all-encompassing, nondual void with no definition from the perspective of the fictional worlds which it encompasses, but it's actually just a regular sheet of paper from a higher reality; Meta-Beings from Umineko are a similar case, since while some of them may be regular humans from their own point of view, they still look down on lower worlds as fiction and exist outside of their spacetime completely. So they may be Supersonic or whatever speed from their own perspective, but not from the perspective of lower realities.

 

[Greenshifter]

The Speed Force is above the infinite-dimensional multiverse according to the Cosmology map and it also states that the wall is known as the speed of light to denizens of the orrery (which includes the higher-dimensionals). Yet Wally West almost gets sucked into it after having to accelerate faster than light speed to outpace a black hole in the page before. He also nears the speed of light while traveling through time (since a bit after this they run straight through Darkseid without phasing) which can be done by breaking the time barrier and “bouncing” off of the edge of the Speed force and into the timestream. (This edge is also defined as the edge of light)

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Going FTL in the context of DC (When the Speed Force is being acknowledged by the story, that is) means surpassing the concepts of space and time and becoming pure information by entering conceptual space, so I don't really think that can be used as a conventional example here

 

[Greenshifter]

That applies to the black hole one. Not to the one where they're traveling through time, Superman reacts to it, and they still need to reach light speed. DC not being a conventional example of anything was pretty much a given yeah. And there's still the issue on how to treat this regardless of it being conventional or not.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yuri, I do wanna ask. Even if you DID, somehow, get this accepted... what do we do with the characters that actually meet the requirements for Immeasurable?

They would just fall under one of the associated things I listed; that's nearly like 1/3 of my post.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I mentionned MWI to talk about parallel universes in general. This part is theoretical physics.

And let's say we ignore physics because fiction breaks it: Fiction itself don't have Immeasurable like we do, which is the least answered point so far (and it's kinda my biggest one with the fact that we base ourselves on jack shit? At least in the way it's intended to be).

Like; you said that the verses mentionned are the exceptions to a general rule. Problem is that this "general rule" isn't one. When only a minority of verse would fit Immeasurable, and aren't even truly doing so.

Even DC case which was supposed to be the one against my examples is a case which isn't "conventionnal" at all. Immeasurable don't have what it need to be a general rule, and that's really easy to see it when the overwhelming majority of "time travel through speed" isn't even remotely near of it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That applies to the black hole one. Not to the one where they're traveling through time, Superman reacts to it, and they still need to reach light speed. DC not being a conventional example of anything was pretty much a given yeah. And there's still the issue on how to treat this regardless of it being conventional or not.

How to treat more realistic depictions of Lightspeed and FTL does seem like an interesting question, yeah, though probably one best suited for a different thread.

 

[manu_zarri]

but shouldn't this be closed already? why is it still open?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Literally no one agrees with Yuri, can we just close this thread and move along with our day?

Would ask to keep it open a little longer. From experience, threads starting with absolute refusal can often lead to good stuff (Also want to at least to make every point all fully answered).

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

I disagree FRA

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I mentionned MWI to talk about parallel universes in general. This part is theoretical physics.

The concept of parallel universes is something that isn't tied to any particular theory, and in fact predates most of them by several hundreds of years. The specifics of how they function are, yes, but not the basic idea, which is what most verses end up sticking to.

And let's say we ignore physics because fiction breaks it: Fiction itself don't have Immeasurable like we do, which is the least answered point so far (and it's kinda my biggest one with the fact that we base ourselves on jack shit? At least in the way it's intended to be).

The examples which you brought up as a counterpoint to Immeasurable Speed existing all have explicit in-universe factors that allow them to travel through time and differ them from the actual definition of Immeasurable, stuff like Superman time traveling by moving faster than the Earth's rotation and what have you, so they are not really applicable as examples here, especially since, like I said, Time Travel is a subset of Immeasurable Speed, and not the main idea behind it.

And that's not even to bring up how you can still qualify for it in other ways, like what I've mentioned in the very same post which you are addressing.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that we should close this thread. It is not going to be accepted.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Honestly I feel like this was the wrong time and place for such a subject that would not only affect the entire wiki but also lead to an immeasurable amount of headaches in the future.

Either way this isn't getting accepted, both users and staff alike disagree with the removal of immeasurable speed, this thread should indeed be closed so folks can focus on more festive discussions.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The examples which you brought up as a counterpoint to Immeasurable Speed existing all have explicit in-universe factors that allow them to travel through time and differ them from the actual definition of Immeasurable, stuff like Superman time traveling by moving faster than the Earth's rotation and what have you, so they are not really applicable as examples here, especially since, like I said, Time Travel is a subset of Immeasurable Speed, and not the main idea behind it.

And that's not even to bring up how you can still qualify for it in other ways, like what I've mentioned in the very same post which you are addressing.

When your main criteria is time travelling, it is kind of important tho.

Also I saw pretty much all suggestions, which is kind of why I'm doing this.

Even with all these criterias, there's nothing to make our invention a general rule when it never was one. You can add criterias, make the definition change at will; but nowhere is it used in fiction, and having one or two exceptions don't make something the general rule. Type 10 Immortality suffered from the same issue, and here is the exact same one.

 

[Planck69]

Disagree with this FRA. Ultima, King and Ploz said all that needs to be said.

Also lol, never have I seen such a unanimous "f*ck no!"

 

[Antvasima]

Honestly I feel like this was the wrong time and place for such a subject that would not only affect the entire wiki but also lead to an immeasurable amount of headaches in the future.

Either way this isn't getting accepted, both users and staff alike disagree with the removal of immeasurable speed, this thread should indeed be closed so folks can focus on more festive discussions.

Agreed. I will close this thread then.

My apologies YuriAkuto.