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So we had a lot of discussions about Immeasurable speed, and I think the reason nobody really agree on what it is is because it shouldn't be a thing to begin with; which is what I'll explain in this CRT.
Imo it is kind of an important issue, since Immeasurable speed apply to a lot of our characters, is the source of way more than one debate and Speed is kinda the uncool cousin of Tiering System.
I already presented the beta version of it to some admins for opinions and the result were pretty even (or more like, equal with neutral opinions); so it's likely worth the post.
"Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed."
And the associated note says that "The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly."
Additionnal stuff not mentionned were that "you would be able to strike before you move" or "able to react to attack directed toward your past/future self". Also there is the fact that "merely transcending time and space isn't enough to qualify" and some others person talked about it being akin to a "state of being".
So these explanations are the basis I'll take for the post of "why should we just get ride of this speed".
(Last Immeasurable-related thread explained how higher-D don't mean higher speed since it's just a new direction, so I'm not re-debatting it in this post).
That's all there is to it. Every speed up to Infinite follows this rule so far.
But Immeasurable speed add a rule that basically says "if you time travel through movements or attack before you move, then you're above infinite speed"
Except that while time/causality trickery is cool and all, you don't calc it with a D/T formula (nor do you calc it at all). We litteraly removed timeless voids for this reason, but adding things which have the same reason with how you calc speed isn't any better.
Basically it's the same as putting a new AP rating based on "punching holes in space-time" because you can't calc it with TNT values and suchlike and it can kill thing with High 3-A durability.
Also since just saying that "it's not related" is pretty weak, the next points will detail this a bit further.
But what about the idea of time traveling through movements being faster than infinite speed or that reverse causality shenanigans is?
I did research on the subject, and I didn't find anything remotely implying this.
Like, going from scientific theories, to NASA stuff to philosophical stuff about it, I never found anything remotely implying this.
However time travel and his link to speed was obviously treated countless times, so next point will be to just how it should definitely stop being considered as a proof of any given speed.
Tachyons are famous for being the hypothetical FTL particles being able to travel across time with their speed.
However even these molecules aren't able to go beyond infinity (and aren't even able to truly reach it).
It's litteraly a case of "doing something before you move" which is supposed to be part of Immeasurable speed (a theorical example is the Tachyonic antitelephone).
They meet Immeasurable criterias so well that they're even supposed to litteraly go both in the future and the past through sheer speed and constantly, which is really what I could find as the closest equivalent to our Immeasurable speed criterias.
So something traveling through time with sheer speed, doing actions before their movement, able to react to past/future stuff, etc... isn't considered anywhere outside of our regular speed calculations in actual scientific theories.
As such, since we're using made-up criterias (or more the conclusion of making you faster than infinite is what's made-up); Immeasurable speed should just disappear.
For time travelling through speed, it would unsurprisingly fall under... Time Travel. Wow. What a twist.
For "being able to strike before you move", it would be Causality Manipulation, more precisely causality-reversal (except if it would be like just sending an attack back into the past). Gae Bolg is a good example of this ability. If one character can do it with every movement; then congratulations, you have a great passive! (just like characters who can do space-time distorsions with their very punches or the likes).
Being "able to react to attack directed toward your past/future self" is a bit trickier, because it can be more than one situation: is the attack causality reversal? (like Gae Bolg); is it just an attack being sent to the past/future? (such as Future Sight ).
In the first case, one simply can't just dodge it with speed. I mean it's like asking someone to reflect fate manipulation with a kick. You would need some form of hax to counter it like for Fate's characters, who need Luck above B to dodge Gae Bolg.
In the second one, there's a shit tons of way to dodge it. While your present self can't do shit, from your past self's perspective, it's just an attack randomly appearing. The character can simply dodge it; with side powers like Precognition or Instinctive Reaction just being a bonus help. It's really the same as a time traveller travelling then trying to stab you; they at best have surprise factor. Of course if the target is like your baby self good luck with this.
Also for a last one, being "faster than infinity" would just be higher infinite speed. It's not even dumb; I mean we take this into account 2-As so why wouldn't it be the case here? Also this one is kinda rethoric since the most blatant example of this I found consider it as Infinite speed too.
Anyway, everything which is/was a criteria can be put under something else, which strengthen the fact that Immeasurable speed can go bye bye without bringing any real incoherences in our system.
As such, Immeasurable speed should just get erased.
Imo it is kind of an important issue, since Immeasurable speed apply to a lot of our characters, is the source of way more than one debate and Speed is kinda the uncool cousin of Tiering System.
I already presented the beta version of it to some admins for opinions and the result were pretty even (or more like, equal with neutral opinions); so it's likely worth the post.
Immeasurable Speed
First, here's the description we have on the wiki:"Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed."
And the associated note says that "The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly."
Additionnal stuff not mentionned were that "you would be able to strike before you move" or "able to react to attack directed toward your past/future self". Also there is the fact that "merely transcending time and space isn't enough to qualify" and some others person talked about it being akin to a "state of being".
So these explanations are the basis I'll take for the post of "why should we just get ride of this speed".
(Last Immeasurable-related thread explained how higher-D don't mean higher speed since it's just a new direction, so I'm not re-debatting it in this post).
What is speed?
Not spilling anything new here, but speed is V=D/T, which means that you get the speed of this by calculating the time something take to cross a distance.That's all there is to it. Every speed up to Infinite follows this rule so far.
But Immeasurable speed add a rule that basically says "if you time travel through movements or attack before you move, then you're above infinite speed"
Except that while time/causality trickery is cool and all, you don't calc it with a D/T formula (nor do you calc it at all). We litteraly removed timeless voids for this reason, but adding things which have the same reason with how you calc speed isn't any better.
Basically it's the same as putting a new AP rating based on "punching holes in space-time" because you can't calc it with TNT values and suchlike and it can kill thing with High 3-A durability.
Also since just saying that "it's not related" is pretty weak, the next points will detail this a bit further.
What is it based on?
A good thing about this wiki is that it takes a lot of time actually taking stuff from actual theory and make everything logical. We litteraly spend idkhowmuchtime doing this for the new tiering system.But what about the idea of time traveling through movements being faster than infinite speed or that reverse causality shenanigans is?
I did research on the subject, and I didn't find anything remotely implying this.
Like, going from scientific theories, to NASA stuff to philosophical stuff about it, I never found anything remotely implying this.
However time travel and his link to speed was obviously treated countless times, so next point will be to just how it should definitely stop being considered as a proof of any given speed.
Time travel portrayal in relation to speed
So I'll take Tachyons as my main example, since Einstein's Theory of Relativity can be responded with things like "it only talks about going backward in time or having time being experienced as slower".Tachyons are famous for being the hypothetical FTL particles being able to travel across time with their speed.
However even these molecules aren't able to go beyond infinity (and aren't even able to truly reach it).
It's litteraly a case of "doing something before you move" which is supposed to be part of Immeasurable speed (a theorical example is the Tachyonic antitelephone).
They meet Immeasurable criterias so well that they're even supposed to litteraly go both in the future and the past through sheer speed and constantly, which is really what I could find as the closest equivalent to our Immeasurable speed criterias.
So something traveling through time with sheer speed, doing actions before their movement, able to react to past/future stuff, etc... isn't considered anywhere outside of our regular speed calculations in actual scientific theories.
As such, since we're using made-up criterias (or more the conclusion of making you faster than infinite is what's made-up); Immeasurable speed should just disappear.
But what [x] would be then?
So I explained why Immeasurable speed in itself was wrong, but some people may wonder about what the current proof of Immeasurable would fall under instead or how they would be treated (or "could" for those with a lot of particular case).For time travelling through speed, it would unsurprisingly fall under... Time Travel. Wow. What a twist.
For "being able to strike before you move", it would be Causality Manipulation, more precisely causality-reversal (except if it would be like just sending an attack back into the past). Gae Bolg is a good example of this ability. If one character can do it with every movement; then congratulations, you have a great passive! (just like characters who can do space-time distorsions with their very punches or the likes).
Being "able to react to attack directed toward your past/future self" is a bit trickier, because it can be more than one situation: is the attack causality reversal? (like Gae Bolg); is it just an attack being sent to the past/future? (such as Future Sight ).
In the first case, one simply can't just dodge it with speed. I mean it's like asking someone to reflect fate manipulation with a kick. You would need some form of hax to counter it like for Fate's characters, who need Luck above B to dodge Gae Bolg.
In the second one, there's a shit tons of way to dodge it. While your present self can't do shit, from your past self's perspective, it's just an attack randomly appearing. The character can simply dodge it; with side powers like Precognition or Instinctive Reaction just being a bonus help. It's really the same as a time traveller travelling then trying to stab you; they at best have surprise factor. Of course if the target is like your baby self good luck with this.
Also for a last one, being "faster than infinity" would just be higher infinite speed. It's not even dumb; I mean we take this into account 2-As so why wouldn't it be the case here? Also this one is kinda rethoric since the most blatant example of this I found consider it as Infinite speed too.
Anyway, everything which is/was a criteria can be put under something else, which strengthen the fact that Immeasurable speed can go bye bye without bringing any real incoherences in our system.
In conclusion
To resume, I demonstrated the criterias for Immeasurable aren't related to speed in itself, that it lacked any kind of actual basis and that theories involving our current criterias give a waaaay different result from our's. In addition to this, every criterias we have can easily fall under something else; which is more coherent with similar abilities.As such, Immeasurable speed should just get erased.
