Imaginary Number space

[Theglassman12]

What exactly would someone get if they're stated to be capable of controlling imaginary number spaces? Is it some form of mathematics manipulation or something more esoteric?

 

[KingNanaya]

What exactly would someone get if they're stated to be capable of controlling imaginary number spaces? Is it some form of mathematics manipulation or something more esoteric?

are they controlling the space itself, or the numbers in it? or is the space also the numbers?

damn, good question

 

[SYPHe5D]

I think that will be mathematics manipulation which can also apply for spatial Manipulation as well if I understood it correctly, along with what the ability page says.(check the possible usage part)

Mathematics Manipulation

The ability to manipulate mathematics. Abstract manipulation of mathematics: The ability to manipulate mathematics in its abstract form. This means that things like the way reasoning is performed, the mathematical notation, inference rules and which assumptions and models are used when doing...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Theglassman12]

@KingNanaya I guess both? Not really elaborated on what beyond just saying "they can control imaginary number space" so I'm curious if this is some dimensional tiering or some weird as hell ability.

 

[KingNanaya]

@KingNanaya I guess both? Not really elaborated on what beyond just saying "they can control imaginary number space" so I'm curious if this is some dimensional tiering or some weird as hell ability.

If it's a space that contains all imaginary numbers, affecting it might be spatial and math manip, while also being 4D in potency. A similar thing exists in Nasu stuff, but no one really "manipulates" it, it just kinds exists.

 

[Deagonx]

A similar thing exists in Nasu stuff, but no one really "manipulates" it, it just kinds exists.

Sakura can, IIRC, manipulate imaginary numbers.

It's hard to assign it any meaning based on the description itself, because "manipulating imaginary numbers" really doesn't mean anything without further explanation.

 

[KingNanaya]

Sakura can, IIRC, manipulate imaginary numbers.

I was more so referring to the imaginary number space in fate extra. but yeah, she can, due to her Origin being Imaginary Numbers

 

[Planck69]

Maybe Spatial Manipulation without further elaboration I think. Since they're controlling the space rather than the numbers themselves

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I wonder too because from experience "imaginary number space" is a (un)common concept in japanese fiction. I'm just thinking maybe a form of math/info manip as well as spatial.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

What exactly would someone get if they're stated to be capable of controlling imaginary number spaces? Is it some form of mathematics manipulation or something more esoteric?

Is there anything more to this description and control of imaginary number space?

 

[Theglassman12]

Like I said, beyond “I can control imaginary number spaces easily”, that’s the most that’s said, so I wanna know what exactly does that remotely imply.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Like I said, beyond “I can control imaginary number spaces easily”, that’s the most that’s said, so I wanna know what exactly does that remotely imply.

More elaboration on what Imaginary Number space is and what can they do by controlling it would have been better. But I suppose it should broadly fall under Mathematics manip as others have said.

 

[Planck69]

Wait, why are people saying this is Mathematics Manipulation? It's certainly an esoteric spatial manipulation feat but based on the sentence, they're not actually manipulating imaginary numbers themselves.

 

[KingNanaya]

Wait, why are people saying this is Mathematics Manipulation? It's certainly an esoteric spatial manipulation feat but based on the sentence, they're not actually manipulating imaginary numbers themselves.

If the space itself is also the numbers, then they'd be manipulating the numbers via manipulating the space

 

[Deagonx]

Wait, why are people saying this is Mathematics Manipulation? It's certainly an esoteric spatial manipulation feat but based on the sentence, they're not actually manipulating imaginary numbers themselves.

If the space itself is also the numbers, then they'd be manipulating the numbers via manipulating the space

I mean, I think this sort of speaks to the fact that absent further elaboration we're not left with enough information to draw a concrete conclusion without resorting to assumptions. I know that in Nasuverse, for instance, the Imaginary Number Space lacks spatial dimensions and is described more akin to unreality. (Though that description is often contradicted by the actual happenings in the story).

 

[Tanin_iver]

It's hard to assign it any meaning based on the description itself, because "manipulating imaginary numbers" really doesn't mean anything without further explanation.

I mean, I think this sort of speaks to the fact that absent further elaboration we're not left with enough information to draw a concrete conclusion without resorting to assumptions.

U do have a point here. We are extrapolating a bit here, without any clarification on what it is or what controlling it even does. So I guess it should give nothing normally or at best, possible Math Manip perhaps.

 

[KingNanaya]

(Though that description is often contradicted by the actual happenings in the story).

Mostly because of FGO, but yeah.

 

[KingNanaya]

Also, if you are manipulating a space or realm, do we assume you can also manipulate what's inside of it?

 

[Deagonx]

do we assume you can also manipulate what's inside of it?

Can you clarify

 

[Planck69]

If the space itself is also the numbers, then they'd be manipulating the numbers via manipulating the space

By that logic, any feats of manipulating regular space are also mathematical manipulation, given it uses real numbers in its coordinates.

But Deagonx is right in that we really don't have much to go off of that statement.

 

[KingNanaya]

Can you clarify

Once I get home I can.

By that logic, any feats of manipulating regular space are also mathematical manipulation, given it uses real numbers in its coordinates.

Didn't think about that.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Like I said, beyond “I can control imaginary number spaces easily”, that’s the most that’s said, so I wanna know what exactly does that remotely imply.

Having dealt with this sort of thing more than I find ideal, it being a core concept of Xenosaga, I can confidently tell you that it doesn't mean anything on its own until the story decides to tell you what exactly it means in it.

Purely physically speaking, my impression is that this concept also comes from some of Hawking's theories on Imaginary Time and units. But this is how Hawking himself put it:

From the viewpoint of positivist philosophy, however, one cannot determine what is real. All one can do is find which mathematical models describe the universe we live in. It turns out that a mathematical model involving imaginary time predicts not only effects we have already observed but also effects we have not been able to measure yet nevertheless believe in for other reasons.

If I were to very arbitrarily say that it implies anything at all, it's the quote above. Dimensions of space and time containing and explaining things impossible to observe and that current models of physics wouldn't sufficiently account for or define. But that nonetheless may be at the root of our reality, similarly to how multiplying negative times negative gives you a positive product. Just as a function of real numbers provides us a measure of real space, imaginary numbers in turn would provide the measure of imaginary space.

But even that is at best a layman's POV and limited by my (even more limited) perception of these physical concepts. Each author can at best pick up the root idea of the concept and then decide and demonstrate which is the true nature of the theory in their work.

From that, tl dr is that it's best to gauge and compare with what's being offered in context of the story itself, draw a line and work from there. And also, that I need to bump that Xenosaga thread again tomorrow..........

 

[KingNanaya]

Having dealt with this sort of thing more than I find ideal, it being a core concept of Xenosaga, I can confidently tell you that it doesn't mean anything on its own until the story decides to tell you what exactly it means in it.

Purely physically speaking, my impression is that this concept also comes from some of Hawking's theories on Imaginary Time and units. But this is how Hawking himself put it:

If I were to very arbitrarily say that it implies anything at all, it's the quote above. Dimensions of space and time containing and explaining things impossible to observe and that current models of physics wouldn't sufficiently account for or define. But that nonetheless may be at the root of our reality, similarly to how multiplying negative times negative gives you a positive product. Just as a function of real numbers provides us a measure of real space, imaginary numbers in turn would provide the measure of imaginary space.

But even that is at best a layman's POV and limited by my (even more limited) perception of these physical concepts. Each author can at best pick up the root idea of the concept and then decide and demonstrate which is the true nature of the theory in their work.

From that, tl dr is that it's best to gauge and compare with what's being offered in context of the story itself, draw a line and work from there. And also, that I need to bump that Xenosaga thread again tomorrow..........

Best take so far

 

[Theglassman12]

@Magicomethkuon So basically it’s boils down to whatever the verse itself defines imaginary number space to be rather than it being an actual thing in science? I see.

 

[Vietthai96]

we don't even have actual theory about something called Imaginary number space, even the application of imaginary number is practically next to none except in Hawking Radiation for recovering of black hole's temperature via imaginary time, which unlike real time, imaginary time loop on itself

@Magicomethkuon So basically it’s boils down to whatever the verse itself defines imaginary number space to be rather than it being an actual thing in science? I see.

anyway, this is true, it is boil down to how fiction verse depict imaginary number space, so at best i think someone have statement like: i can control the imaginary number space and nothing more can get a decorative spatial manipulation on their profile that did absolutely nothing noteworthy

 

[Magicomethkuon]

@Magicomethkuon So basically it’s boils down to whatever the verse itself defines imaginary number space to be

Yes. Nothing beyond what rules they have stablished for their own work.

rather than it being an actual thing in science? I see.

Yes and no. Imaginary numbers at least pop up in quantum mechanics quite a bit for example. And if there are theories that need imaginary numbers, it's not entirely far-fetched to at least suggest how according to them, they describe — or predict — something in-about reality (and how it behaves). The other inherent problem is that there can also be no definitive agreement if the necessity for imaginary numbers means that there exists some aspect of reality that is imaginary, or if the imaginary numbers are there as some sort of mathematical convenience, or inconvenience, that no one can solve without them.

It just gets worse from there.

Numbers reflect Nature in the context of corresponding dimensions, ergo, imaginary numbers could, theoretically theoretically theoretically, mean that imaginary dimensions are possible as well. Nevermind proving their existence or discovering and explaining how they work, when the foundation comes from something that by definition, isn't supposed to logically exist following the patterns of standard space. Tall order.

Less ❝nothing about this anywhere❞, and more ❝there is, but it's not found in one place, no one agrees about it, no one can agree about it. If the writer were also our best physicist, they'd be lying or earning a Nobel, were it the case that their work describes a theoretical concept like imaginary number space in a way true to science❞.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

we don't even have actual theory about something called Imaginary number space, even the application of imaginary number is practically next to none except in Hawking Radiation for recovering of black hole's temperature via imaginary time, which unlike real time, imaginary time loop on itself

Believe it or not, they use imaginary numbers! Complex ones too, like with the Schrödinger Equation. But like I said, it could be plain mathematical (in)convenience, no one can simply say that because these are used, there's necessarily an imaginary aspect to reality.

Although, Hawking's takes are worth mentioning to remember that this has, indeed, been given thought before.

If space and imaginary time are indeed like the surface of the Earth, there wouldn't be any singularities in the imaginary time direction, at which the laws of physics would break down. And there wouldn't be any boundaries, to the imaginary time space-time, just as there aren't any boundaries to the surface of the Earth. This absence of boundaries means that the laws of physics would determine the state of the universe uniquely, in imaginary time. But if one knows the state of the universe in imaginary time, one can calculate the state of the universe in real time. One would still expect some sort of Big Bang singularity in real time. So real time would still have a beginning. But one wouldn't have to appeal to something outside the universe, to determine how the universe began. Instead, the way the universe started out at the Big Bang would be determined by the state of the universe in imaginary time. Thus, the universe would be a completely self-contained system. It would not be determined by anything outside the physical universe, that we observe. << Stephen Hawking, lectures, the Beginning of Time >>

He points towards the idea, with to the imaginary time space-time. If you take the above quote at face-value, we can go back (in a way) to where I stated that some works such as Xenosaga in turn depict it as a greater and more fundamental reality than the one experienced physically. Sorry about the long exposition, we agree that we can't apply any definition outside of what the franchise itself depicts so I didn't need to go into further detail about this.

 

[Theglassman12]

Well that answered my question at least, gonna close the thread.