Ikki Kurogane vs Mega Alakazam

[Firephoenixearl]

No but it takes it from parlor trick to fooling the mind in such a way you can't see him regardless of his actions so....

>Regardless of his actions

>He has to move in very very specific ways

Yeah legit.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alakazam isn't a man. Alakazam isn't a normal human. Hell, it's not even human. It's mind is very explicitly not flawed, yet you're saying a trick he abuses on normal humans due to the state of their minds will work here.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes, that's why you gotta prove his mind literally perceives an absolute 100% of everything he sees. It's not just the human mind, no mind can really perceive 100% of what it sees. The amount of info would burn any mind. Prove Alakazam's won't. That's what i've been asking from you this whole thread.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Alakazam's brain continually grows, infinitely multiplying brain cells. This amazing brain gives this Pokémon an astoundingly high IQ of 5,000. It has a thorough memory of everything that has occurred in the world." -Sapphire

"A Pokémon that can memorize anything. It never forgets what it learns—that's why this Pokémon is smart." -Yellow

"Its superb memory lets it recall everything it has experienced from birth. Its IQ exceeds 5,000." -Pearl

"Its brain cells multiply continually until it dies. As a result, it remembers everything." -Pearl

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I don't necessarily believe intelligence=perception, but it does say it remembers everything that occurred, and that would have to include the minor details that Trackless Step is stated to sink into.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Memory =/= perception. Remembering what has occured doesn't mean it can perceive everysingle thing he sees. Only that it can remember what it can perceive.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I don't necessarily believe intelligence=perception

FireRed - It does not like physical attacks very much. Instead, it freely uses extra-sensory powers to defeat foes.

Moon - Its hidden psychic power has been unleashed. A glance at someone gives it knowledge of the course of that person's life, from birth to death.

Ultra Moon - Having traded away its muscles, Alakazam's true power has been unleashed. With its psychic powers, it can foresee all things.

Ultra Sun - It sends out psychic power from the red organ on its forehead to foresee its opponents' every move.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So you're telling me that a creature with explicitly heightened senses, a brain that is literally a different structure than that of a man's, and knows literally everything in the entire world would be outdone by some footwork.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Heck, even Abra:

"Even while asleep, it can sense enemies approaching. It Teleports itself to a distant spot if there is any danger." -Stadium

"It senses impending attacks and teleports away to safety before the actual attacks can strike." -Gold

"Abra sleeps for eighteen hours a day. However, it can sense the presence of foes even while it is sleeping. In such a situation, this Pokémon immediately teleports to safety." Ruby

"It uses various psychic powers even while it's sleeping, so you can't tell whether or not it's awake." -Ultra Sun

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So you're telling me that a creature with explicitly heightened senses, a brain that is literally a different structure than that of a man's, and knows literally everything in the entire world would be outdone by some footwork.

The same as i tell you, the girl who used trackless step herself was outdone by trackless step.

Hightened senses. It's not about senses, it's about the mind.

Different structure doesn't mean NLF. That's like saying "a cat is not a human so it's AP is Low 2-C".

"Knows everything in the entire world" is just a good memory. It can remember "everything it can perceive". It's not proving he lacks an unconsciousness or can tap into it.

@Weekly

All those get negged by type 4.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Dude your mind is flawed, it doesn't register some stuff. It is unable to register, ikki abusing this weakness is not messing with your mind. He's not doing anything with your mind. He just knows what that flaw is and knows what to do to avoid it.

And perhaps the minds in RKnC are more flawed than Alakazam's. Or that of real life, given that no human with a properly functioning brain would justifiably fail to register something like that.

If you want the ability to apply to other verses, where such a power would be considered as messing with minds, then it's mindhax. If you want to hard-line the ability as it functions in the verse, giving no heed to other verses, then it doesn't cross the threshold. Both interpretations need to compromise here or neither do.

If you wish to impose the rules of RKnC on a verse, then vice versa must be true. In Pokemon, what Ikki does is mindhax, plain and simple, and would be resisted by Alakazam for a variety of reasons.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>Yeah all people in rakudai are actually disabled so it doesn't apply to any other verse.

Dude it doesn't apply to other characters when they show that "yes they lack an unconsciousness/can perceive 100%/can tap into their unconsciousness". Idk where you got that logic from.

The positive argument is on the "alakazam negs it". Yeah prove why with his feats. I did prove why being a genius literally doesn't contribute as Shizuku, the biggest genius had the literally "least" amount of chances of countering this technique out of everyone.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

>Strawmanning somone's post by making a chan-esque joke summary doesn't help your argument.

Tapping into someone's unconciousness and making it do something it wouldn't do otherwise is mindhax.

Why would Alakazam's galaxy brain play into this when he just resists the kind of effects that Ikki produces?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dude, even if you were right, every Alakazam has hypnotized themselves since birth to be capable of sensing and reacting even if unconscious. It spends the first third of its life sensing things during its 18 hours of sleep.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

And it's not ikki that enters your unconsciousness, it's just that "anything that enters your rythym gets blocked by your mind".

Again with the mind hax. Omg dargoo. Alakazam's mind would do it otherwise. Just not to humans. It would do it to humans who enter his rythym. Im serious dargo you're just recycling points right now.

>Mind hax

>Me explains why it's not mind hax as it's a problem of the mind, not something Ikki does. Ikki just moves around literally without affecting you.

>Well he can remember

>That doesn't mean it can perceive

>Well it's mindhax

Geez

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Dude, even if you were right, every Alakazam has hypnotized themselves since birth to be capable of sensing and reacting even if unconscious. It spends the first third of its life sensing things during its 18 hours of sleep.

That would actually help. Though i need a little bit of context, does it actually do that unconscious? Being unconscious means he literally acts without even realizing he is and remembers nothing during that as its mind is not active. If you can prove that then yes trackless step wouldn't be effective. That very thing counters trackless step.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Heck, even Abra:

"Even while asleep, it can sense enemies approaching. It Teleports itself to a distant spot if there is any danger." -Stadium

"It senses impending attacks and teleports away to safety before the actual attacks can strike." -Gold

"Abra sleeps for eighteen hours a day. However, it can sense the presence of foes even while it is sleeping. In such a situation, this Pokémon immediately teleports to safety." Ruby

"It uses various psychic powers even while it's sleeping, so you can't tell whether or not it's awake." -Ultra Sun

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Heck, even Abra:

"Even while asleep, it can sense enemies approaching. It Teleports itself to a distant spot if there is any danger." -Stadium

"It senses impending attacks and teleports away to safety before the actual attacks can strike." -Gold

"It hypnotizes itself so that it can teleport away when it senses danger, even if it is asleep." -Crystal

"Abra sleeps for eighteen hours a day. However, it can sense the presence of foes even while it is sleeping. In such a situation, this Pokémon immediately teleports to safety." Ruby

"It uses various psychic powers even while it's sleeping, so you can't tell whether or not it's awake." -Ultra Sun

Yes

Dammit, ninja'd.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And it's not ikki that enters your unconsciousness, it's just that "anything that enters your rythym gets blocked by your mind". Again with the mind hax. Omg dargoo. Alakazam's mind would do it otherwise. Just not to humans. It would do it to humans who enter his rythym. Im serious dargo you're just recycling points right now.

Which, if, again, you want to apply it outside the context of its own verse, is mindhax, based on the effect that it achieves. Whatever wishy-washy power system that causes it doesn't make any difference, it's the effect, and if it can be blocked by what another ability has been demonstrated to block.

Perhaps I'm reiterating some points because, instead of actually addressing them, you double down on your previous claims and try and make my arguments look silly though chan-posting a poor summary of them? That's you being dishonest, not actually making an argument.

I feel like Cal has already demonstrated that regardless of how you spin this situation, the ability is blocked, nontheless.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Dargoo

"Let's see, humans are nothing more than animals, and like a machine they can't process all the tiny details that they see and hear, and the brain certainly can't consciously recognize all of those sights and sounds. After all, if they processed and analyzed everything they see and hear, the brain will burn out. Therefore, the human brain will toss low-priority information into the unconscious, and abdicate recognizing them in order to ease the load on itself. This thing called Trackless Step is a martial arts technique that applies peculiar breath control and footwork to slip its user's existence into the opponent's unconsciousness. As a result, even though Shizuku can still see Toudou-san, she has become unable to recognize that fact. Even though the brain and the eye can capture Toudou-san's movements, they can't be processed because the consciousness is classifying them as unnecessary information, to the degree that a life-threatening danger can approach to little more than a blink away.

"Spot on. You understood it well."

Kurono praised him as if in admiration, because there were no faults in Ikki's answer that divulged the mysterious mechanism that was assaulting Shizuku.

Right. There was only unconsciousness within.

The opponent was making everything about herself imperceptible by shifting her breath and body a half-step, and by sliding into that interval, she had dodged the awareness locking onto her. That was the mechanism behind the old-style footwork Trackless Step.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Just gonna point out, that's not how human brains work in real life. They don't "burn out" and subconsciously do perceive, virtually, everything. Which is actually demonstrable with various LSD tests.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Dargoo and Cal seem to make sense to me here tbh.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Just gonna point out, that's not how human brains work in real life. They don't "burn out" and subconsciously do perceive, virtually, everything. Which is actually demonstrable with various LSD tests.

Mind explaining? Not just for the debate, but also because I'm pretty curious.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Dargoo and Cal seem to make sense to me here tbh.

I agree.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Dargoo Let's see, humans are nothing more than animals, and like a machine they can't process all the tiny details that they see and hear, and the brain certainly can't consciously recognize all of those sights and sounds.

This is true. The human brain doesn't process everything it hears, even IRL.

This thing called Trackless Step is a martial arts technique that applies peculiar breath control and footwork to slip its user's existence into the opponent's unconsciousness.

This, however, is not something that can be achieved through any reasonable mechanism, from what we understand of the human brain. If the brain is hyper-aware of its surroundings and resists being tampered with externally, someone attempting to "slip into their unconsciousness" would fail.

Which is the issue. Most verses would consider this as messing with the human brain, making it do stuff it wouldn't otherwise do, as if someone were to perform the exact same actions it wouldn't have any effect. So for it to even cross the threshold, so to speak, it needs to act in a way that would be blocked by Alakazam.

The alternative is it just not crossing the threshold at all, in which case Ikki makes a bunch of weird movements to no effect.

To give an example, if all cheese in a universe were hypervolitile explosives that detonate immediately in air, and a character from that universe was fighting a character made of cheese from another universe, that character wouldn't immediately explode the second the battle begins.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Mind explaining? Not just for the debate, but also because I'm pretty curious.

Don't want to derail so I'll keep this brief. You can read most stuff about the subconscious by Carl Jung, he wrote a lot about that. And about the LSD tests, you can google stuff like the mask test or something.

 

[GyroNutz]

Isn't M Alakazam's passive both information analysis and precog? So while the 'forsees all of the opponent's next moves' would be precogged, surely it could see the course of Ikki's life through information analysis? Even if stuff that happens after the point of information analysis gets blocked (aka everything from this fight until death), it still gives M Alakazam knowledge of all of Ikki's abilities.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's both precog and recog

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway outside of this. What can Alakazam do against Ikki blitzing with Rasetsu?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

On a completely unrelated note.

Anyone hyped for Wawa winning DBFZ UFA?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Anyway outside of this. What can Alakazam do against Ikki blitzing with Rasetsu?

Nothing. That's his wincon. If Ikki amps himself before Alakazam pulls a Zam.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, that boosts his tier and is therefore banned.

 

[Schnee_One]

It's banned of the OP restricts it

 

[Wokistan]

Cal is the OP so it probably is

 

[Schnee_One]

BTW whats the speed gap since speed isn't equal

 

[Jinsye]

Ikki blitzes huh

Alakazam scales to someone who is 0.53 c but Ikki can blitz FTL dudes

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So Cal is basically the law right now?

Well ugh...that's a bit unfair. Ok so let's go over this again:

Ikki's amp is restricted to his reaction speed and a 2x stat amp, which doesn't really help.

Alakazam can use telekinetic attacks which idk how exactly they work to say whether ikki can skill through them.

On the other hand Ikki can't really use sneak attacks and speed stuff is outta the question. Is massively outranged.

So someone can clarify what exactly alakazam can do? Wait...desperado Ikki...ikki gets pressed a bit then desperado auras...

 

[Firephoenixearl]

BTW whats the speed gap since speed isn't equal

Ikki massively blitzes in that case but cal says "speed equal if necessary" so...ugh...i guess its equal? Cus Cal is the law

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm the law 'round these parts

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So the morale is never let cal make a fight cus he'll favour his own character

Anyway imma vote ikki due to Desperado Aura.