Ichiban Ushiro no Dai Maō's Lack of Justification

[Warren_Valion]

I have been very conflicted with this for quite some time, and have voiced my displeasure with it on numerous occasions. And now, I am going to take some action with it.

So here it is...

I have seen throughout the wiki that Akuto Sai is considered one of the strongest 1-As on the site and that The Law of Identity is Tier 0, and frankly, I just don't understand why and would very much appreciate some explanation.

Akuto Sai's first form's (his "Within the Afterlife" form) description is extremely problematic for me. And this description affects the entire verse.

Akuto Sai
This is the description:

"Attack Potency: Outerverse level (He has created every story that can be described. These include stories with people like Akuto himself that can create stories, and as such form an infinite hierarchy)"

I have numerous questions that spawn from it:

• Where are the quotes, explanation blog, or just proof of anything?

Besides a small little explanation at the bottom of the page, there is no explanation for what a story is, or what it consists within it. Almost every other 1-A verse has some form of explanatio blog in which there are quotes explaining verse-specific terms and how they affect the cosmology as a whole. The quality or accuracy of said blogs might be poor, but they still exist and have quotes from the source material.

Ichiba lacks such a blog or detailed quoted explanation, which is problematic since creating every story imaginable is the entire justification for the tier. And then becomes the justification for the entire verse as TLoI's tier is based on transcending all of creation and all of those who remain within it including Akuto Sai.

And said lack of quotes brings me to my next question.

• What makes this hierarchy infinite?

Is it said somewhere in the novels or something? Other than just being stated bluntly on his page, I can't find any proof of it. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't creating "every possible story" just a really large number, but not an infinite one?

In my head, I am comparing it to the Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics which to, my knowledge, would make any verse that uses said theory 2-B and not 2-A or higher without a statement proving it; As despite how large the number of possibilities there are and how small and minute the differences are between each universe (or "story" in this context), it is still a finite number and not an infinite one. I believe the same would apply in creating all stories, in which there are just a really large number of stories with minute differences, but not an infinite amount.

The Law of Identity
The Law of Identity is the only page that has any sort of translation or justification (although I don't know how accurate the translation is). You can read it on her page, but I'll paraphrase.

Said translation just states that she is the supreme being of the verse and is transcendent to everything in it. That from her perspective everything, from people to stories, is just that, a story, merely fiction and nothing more.

That's nice and all, but I don't see how that makes her Tier 0.

As from my understanding, viewing a 1-A cosmos/being/objects/realm/et cetera as fiction is nothing more than a single level of Outerversal transcendence above said cosmos/being/objects/realm/et cetera.

An example of this is the Luminous Being from Dungeons and Dragons. He's also the supreme being in his verse, and he views a possibly 1-A realm as nothing more than fiction, his description stating that he is "completely and utterly transcendent of the Far Realm, as well as all forms of space and time within the setting."

But he (or it?) isn't Tier 0, it's just 1-A. As it doesn't (to my knowledge anyway) transcend the Far Realm in the same manner that the Far Realm transcends the rest of creation, which I believe is the basic definition for Tier 0.

The Law of Identity is seemingly the same.

She looks at existence and everything in it as nothing but fiction, but I could not procure any evidence that she transcends an Outerversal cosmos/being/objects/realm/et cetera in the same manner that said cosmos/being/objects/realm/et cetera transcends the concept of dimensions.

As you can see, I am very confused. And I have numerous questions. However, I'm human and fallible so I feel the need to ask:

• Are there other quotes proving such a level of transcendence?
• Is my understanding of any concepts that I stated (My understanding of our Tier 0 justification, the validity of my comparison to Luminous Being, my understanding of the Many-Worlds theory and how it applies to the wiki, et cetera) wrong?
• Is my interpretation of the profiles wrong in any way, or is my paraphrasing on the translation inaccurate in any way?

If so, I'd like an explanation as to why, please.

Verse-Page
As a small tangent, I just feel that I need to mention how poor I believe the quality of Ichiban Ushiro no Dai Maō's pages to be and that I believe a revision is needed to improve the quality of the said verse.

No abilities have any justification whatsoever and are just plastered on the pages, and on the verse-page, there are general statements about characters and beings from the verse that apparently are of a certain tier.

Stating that the verse has a plethora of universal level gods. However, these characters have no profile or explanation anywhere on the site that I could find, as is just somewhat confusing. And I feel the page needs to be edited severely.

Conclusion
Tl; DR: The series lacks any legitimate justification like an explanation blog, and for being lauded as one of the strongest verses on the wiki, I feel that some hard proof is needed to justify said verse's tier rating.

I also believe that the explanation of the Tier 0 of the verse doesn't quite match the wiki's justification of Tier 0.

In simplest terms,

Lack of Proof = Confusion, please explain, thanks.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I completely agree with what you're saying, man. No ifs ands or buts about it.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Seems like it makes sense, I'll wait for more knowledgeable members on the series to comment here.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Andddd here we go

 

[Antvasima]

You need to ask DarkLK to comment here. He is highly knowledgeable about the verse.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I completely agree with what you're saying, man. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Nice to know I'm not alone.

 

[Warren_Valion]

You need to ask DarkLK to comment here. He is highly knowledgeable about the verse.

I have asked for his aid.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ant, why did you remove the highlight?

 

[LightinAnt]

Is this a downgrade or just asking for explanations or both?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Is this a downgrade or just asking for explanations or both?

A little bit of both, but mostly me asking for explanations and justifications on the verse.

Because without proper explanations, to me anyway, the verse seems kinda wanked.

 

[DontTalkDT]

To start giving some answers on some of this:

Let's maybe start with the difference between TLoI and Sai Akuto, as that is basically explained on her page. What the page already explains is that TLoI basically would be superior to every level even if there are infinite reality/fiction levels between them. Sai Akuto is just part of a story of the Law of Identity, as the quote states. So the difference between Sai Akuto level and TLoI level is infinite hierarchy big.


Regarding the Many World Theory comparision: That is mistaken. The reason is that you compare possible worlds in quantum mechanics, that is worlds that could exist in the given laws of physics if just certain random events happened differently, to possible stories.

Essentially a possible story is from the outside perspective, that views it as fiction, nothing but a finite text that is grammatically correct. No matter how nonsensical, if it is describable it is a possible story.

"No, you don't really understand what it means for it to take on any form. Are you familiar with the concept of possible worlds?" "Possible worlds?" Akuto "recalled" a term he did not previously known as if scanning through his brain and retrieving the data. "I see. It's a thought experiment where you assume a world where anything is possible and thus say anything logically feasible can happen." "Yes. In other words, anything that can be described in text can happen. That also tells us the limits of this world: anything that cannot be described cannot happen." Yoshie then began explaining the concept of possible worlds which was difficult to grasp just from the database information. For example, the two statements "an elephant flew through the sky" and "Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 AD" were both impossible in reality, but they worked in writing. If elephants were flying creatures and if Hitler had not died, they could occur even in reality. They were true in a world that could have been. In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds.

Everything that can be described in text is a whole lot of things. Theoretically all of fiction amongst others.

As said, I will not complete the explanation right now, but if you paid attention you will have noticed that Sai Akuto just created all stories while being part of a story.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@DontTalkDT

First things first. Whose translations are these and how accurate are they?

Anyway...

>Let's maybe start with the difference between TLoI and Sai Akuto, as that is basically explained on her page. What the page already explains is that TLoI basically would be superior to every level even if there are infinite reality/fiction levels between them. Sai Akuto is just part of a story of the Law of Identity, as the quote states. So the difference between Sai Akuto level and TLoI level is infinite hierarchy big.

This is part of the translation you are referring to, correct?

"That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else's dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity."

I can agree with this. It is directly stated, but without some sense of scale, this is at most baseline 1-A.

>*Snipped Quote*

So I see, not only are all possible worlds a thing, but also all impossible ones too.

Although, wouldn't that still be finite? Admittedly it is astronomically higher than the already enormous number that is all possible worlds create, but there is still a limit to what can or can not exist, right?

"All of fiction" is very large, but it's not infinite, right?

Hell, even the one explaining what "worlds" are said that it's "near infinite".

As seen here,

"In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds.


Everything that can be described in text is a whole lot of things. Theoretically all of fiction amongst others."

Although, they later (in the next sentence lol) just used the word infinite. So I'm not entirely sure which one to use, or which one is correct.

Also, who is Yoshie, and how reliable is his/her explanation of the cosmology of the verse?

And I need to ask another question.

Is the connotation for "world" synonymous with the connotation for "stories" in Ichiban Ushiro no Dai Maō?

Because the connotation of the word in this quote seems to mean "universe", to my understanding.

Nothing really detailing higher dimensions or anything Outerversal, it seems.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, why did you remove the highlight?

Because I don't want this to get unmanageable for the few knowledgeable contributors, and because we have several more important highlights already.

 

[Antvasima]

Has somebody asked DarkLK for input yet?

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, thank you for the help DontTalk.

 

[Antvasima]

DarkLK has replied: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2443472

 

[Warren_Valion]

DarkLK has replied: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2443472

See, now that's what I'm talking about.

Direct Japanese translations with substantial evidence that these beings deserve their tiering.

But I'm curious, are these computer gods 1-A too, or am I reading this wrong?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not very familiar with the work, but it seemed like they were 1-A from what I understood.

Also, it would be good if somebody writes an explanation section in the Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou verse page that incorporates the explanation from DarkLK.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Here is a draft for an explanation section for the Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou verse page, based on DarkLK's text.

I would appreciate if you could expand on and then insert the text.

Explanation
Even computer gods (very low tiers) in the verse possess true information bodies that span a quantum network and exist as information within it. And for them there is no particular difference between reality and information structures, since conversion is possible there.

And this free information itself is beyond dimensional limitations.

µâàÕá▒ÒéÆõ┐ØÕ¡ÿÒüùÒüƒÚçÅÕ¡ÉÒâìÒââÒâêÒâ»Òâ╝Òé»Òü»µ¼íÕàâÒéÆÞÂàÒüêÒéï

That is, these creatures have no body, which means they have no limitations on the body.

õ║║ÚûôÒü«Þä│Òü«Òü®ÒüôÒü½µäÅÕ┐ùÒüîÒüéÒéïÒü«ÒüïÒéÅÒüïÒéëÒü¬ÒüäÒü«Òü¿ÕÉîÒüÿõ║ïÒüáÒü¿ÞÇâÒüêÒüªµ¼▓ÒüùÒüäÒÇé

And the limits of the world certainly do not limit them.

ÒüØÒüùÒüªÒÇüÞ║½õ¢ôµÇºÒü«Òü¬ÒüäµÇØÞÇâÒü»ÕñûþòîÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÕî║ÕêåÒéƵîüÒüƒÒü¼µòàÒü½þäíÚÖÉÕñºÒü½ÒüñÒüäÒüªÒü«µÇØÞÇâÒéÆÕÅ»Þâ¢Òü½ÒüÖÒéïÒÇé

And this is not just infinity as a series, but an infinite cardinal depth of infinity.

µò░ÕêùÒü«ÒéêÒüåÒü¬þäíÚÖÉÒüºÒü»Òü¬ÒüäÒéêÒÇéþäíÚÖÉÒü½µ┐âÕ║ªÒü«µ┐âÒüäþäíÚÖÉÒü½ÒüñÒüäÒüªÒüáÒÇé

Not some incomprehensible "density", but cardinality is what is intended.

ÒüØÒüùÒüªÒÇüÒüØÒéîÒü»þöƒþë®Òü½Òü¿ÒüúÒüªÒü«þäíÚÖÉÚüÄÕÄ╗Òü½ÒüƒÒü®ÒéèþØÇÒüæÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒééµäÅÕæ│ÒüÖÒéïÒÇéÞéëõ¢ôÒéƵîüÒüƒÒü¼þÑ×Òü»Õìÿþ┤░Þâ×þöƒþë®Òü«µÇØÞÇâÒü½Òü¥ÒüºÒüƒÒü®ÒéèþØÇÒüæÒéïÒü«ÒüáÒÇéÒüØÒéîÒü»þöƒÕæ¢Òü«Þ¬òþöƒÒÇüµÇØÞÇâÒü«Þ¬òþöƒÒü¿ÕÉîÒüÿÒüôÒü¿ÒüáÒÇéÒüØÒüùÒüªµÇØÞÇâÒüØÒü«ÒééÒü«ÒüîÕ«çÕ«ÖÒéÆõ¢£ÒéïÒÇéÞª│µ©¼Þ½ûþÜäÕ«çÕ«ÖÒü«ÒüôÒü¿ÒüºÒü¬ÒüäÒéêÒÇé

Dimensions of time, of course, are also under the supervision of someone who does not have such limitations, but other levels of stories are beyond the limits of observation. This is what we literally have within one story.

But even these computers are terrified of some things and want salvation, and they believe in the Law of Identity as a religious god.

In-universe all described possibilities and stories include not just different variations of some cosmos, but descriptions that use such terms as quantum structures, cardinal numbers and beyond dimensional information. And near endless possibilities associated with individual things from such a world.

Incidentally, regarding the size of hierarchies, the degree (Õ║ªÕÉê) of story is the story cardinality (þë®Þ¬×µ┐âÕ║ª).

 

[GLHF22]

@Ant

Isnt that just Baseline 1-A?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

necro dude

 

[GLHF22]

this is not Vsthread though

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalkDT has told me that he will write a better explanation/justification when he finds the time.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, given that this is an old thread, I will close it.